Indiana has a problem ... Mike Pence/David Long

[MaxCoke]

More good press for the Hoosier state. Washington Post:

Indiana’s got a problem: Teachers increasingly don’t want to work in the state anymore. The problem has become so acute that some school districts have have had a hard time finding enough teachers to cover classes for the new school year — and some lawmakers want a legislative committee to discuss the shortage.

The percentage of all teachers getting a teaching license — including veterans — fell by more than 50 percent from 2009-10 to 2013-14, and there was an 18.5 percent decline in the number of licenses issued to new teachers during the same period, according to Indiana Department of Education figures.

And, as the Greensburg Daily News reported in a story in early July, fewer students are enrolling in teacher preparation programs at Indiana universities. It said:

At Indiana State University, enrollment in the elementary education program has remained steady, but other areas, especially sciences, are seeing fewer students, said Judy Sheese, assistant dean for teacher education at the university’s Bayh College of Education.

She said she gets weekly — if not daily — calls from principals asking whether the university has any seniors who will soon graduate with a degree in math or English.

“We don’t have any,” she said.

The Muncie Star-Press reported in December 2014 that enrollment in the program to train kindergarten and elementary school teachers fell by 45 percent from the previous decade.

What’s going on? Pretty much the same thing as in Arizona, Kansas and other states where teachers are fleeing: a combination of under-resourced schools, the loss of job protections, unfair teacher evaluation methods, an increase in the amount of mandated standardized testing and the loss of professional autonomy.

The teacher shortage in Indiana is becoming such a problem that some state lawmakers want a legislative committee to study the issue and come up with solutions. According to the Indianapolis Star, the Republican chairmen of the House and Senate education committees have asked General Assembly leaders to approve having the legislative education study committee review what is causing the drop and how the state could respond.

For one thing, they can look in the mirror. The Republican leadership of the state — including Gov. Mike Pence — showed their respect for teachers by working very hard this year to strip power from Indiana Superintendent of Public Instruction Glenda Ritz, a veteran educator who won election to the post in 2012 (by defeating Tony Bennett, the incumbent who was a protege of former Florida governor Jeb Bush). Oh, by the way, she is a Democrat. David Long, the Republican president of the Indiana Senate, said while explaining why the legislature would want to remove Ritz as chairman of the state Board of Education: “In all fairness, Superintendent Ritz was a librarian, okay?”

No, not okay. Ritz worked as an educator and media specialist who won teacher of the year awards at two different schools.

For 2015-17, the state Legislature gave less funding to urban schools and more to charter schools and private schools that accept students with vouchers. A new school funding formula, according to Chalkbeat Indiana, has led to this situation:

Of the 25 school districts with the highest family income, all of them will get more per-student state aid over the next two years.

But what about the 25 with the lowest family income? Just 12 of them get more money in 2016 and 2017 across the board — in overall state aid and per-student aid. The rest get less in one or both areas.

This all helps explain why fewer teachers are finding Indiana a desirable place to work.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

More good press for the Hoosier state. Washington Post:

Indiana’s got a problem: Teachers increasingly don’t want to work in the state anymore. The problem has become so acute that some school districts have have had a hard time finding enough teachers to cover classes for the new school year — and some lawmakers want a legislative committee to discuss the shortage.

The percentage of all teachers getting a teaching license — including veterans — fell by more than 50 percent from 2009-10 to 2013-14, and there was an 18.5 percent decline in the number of licenses issued to new teachers during the same period, according to Indiana Department of Education figures.

And, as the Greensburg Daily News reported in a story in early July, fewer students are enrolling in teacher preparation programs at Indiana universities. It said:

At Indiana State University, enrollment in the elementary education program has remained steady, but other areas, especially sciences, are seeing fewer students, said Judy Sheese, assistant dean for teacher education at the university’s Bayh College of Education.

She said she gets weekly — if not daily — calls from principals asking whether the university has any seniors who will soon graduate with a degree in math or English.

“We don’t have any,” she said.

The Muncie Star-Press reported in December 2014 that enrollment in the program to train kindergarten and elementary school teachers fell by 45 percent from the previous decade.

What’s going on? Pretty much the same thing as in Arizona, Kansas and other states where teachers are fleeing: a combination of under-resourced schools, the loss of job protections, unfair teacher evaluation methods, an increase in the amount of mandated standardized testing and the loss of professional autonomy.

The teacher shortage in Indiana is becoming such a problem that some state lawmakers want a legislative committee to study the issue and come up with solutions. According to the Indianapolis Star, the Republican chairmen of the House and Senate education committees have asked General Assembly leaders to approve having the legislative education study committee review what is causing the drop and how the state could respond.

For one thing, they can look in the mirror. The Republican leadership of the state — including Gov. Mike Pence — showed their respect for teachers by working very hard this year to strip power from Indiana Superintendent of Public Instruction Glenda Ritz, a veteran educator who won election to the post in 2012 (by defeating Tony Bennett, the incumbent who was a protege of former Florida governor Jeb Bush). Oh, by the way, she is a Democrat. David Long, the Republican president of the Indiana Senate, said while explaining why the legislature would want to remove Ritz as chairman of the state Board of Education: “In all fairness, Superintendent Ritz was a librarian, okay?”

No, not okay. Ritz worked as an educator and media specialist who won teacher of the year awards at two different schools.

For 2015-17, the state Legislature gave less funding to urban schools and more to charter schools and private schools that accept students with vouchers. A new school funding formula, according to Chalkbeat Indiana, has led to this situation:

Of the 25 school districts with the highest family income, all of them will get more per-student state aid over the next two years.

But what about the 25 with the lowest family income? Just 12 of them get more money in 2016 and 2017 across the board — in overall state aid and per-student aid. The rest get less in one or both areas.

This all helps explain why fewer teachers are finding Indiana a desirable place to work.

Disaster Capitalism. Republicans want to destroy the current educational system so they can let their corporate friends privatize it. They'll continue to go after those evil teachers and make cuts and defund wherever they can. It will eventually completely fall apart, due to them f*cking it up, then they'll scream about how public education doesn't work and it will pave the way for total privatization.

 

[hoot1]

In addition to more and more charter schools many in the Indiana state legislature would love to see licensed union teachers replaced with Teach for America types. The anti-union sentiment is a powerful force in Indiana and is one of side effects of the teacher's union supporting mostly Democrats.

 

[mike41703]

More good press for the Hoosier state. Washington Post:
What’s going on? Pretty much the same thing as in Arizona, Kansas and other states where teachers are fleeing: a combination of under-resourced schools, the loss of job protections, unfair teacher evaluation methods, an increase in the amount of mandated standardized testing and the loss of professional autonomy.

My wife teaches here in Indiana so I'm well aware of her complaints.

And I agree with the above statement except for the loss of job protections. She complains constantly(not in a bad way) about the teacher evaluation methods, the ridiculous amount of mandated standardized testing, etc. To those of us that have kids going to school in Indiana, the last thing I want is some undereducated, inexperienced teacher in charge of my kids' education. This is one area where I would prefer we not cut our own throats trying to save a penny. Pay the teachers. Make it more attractive and worthwhile to go into teaching again.

Plus, there are plenty of other crappy programs we can cut to make up for it.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

In addition to more and more charter schools many in the Indiana state legislature would love to see licensed union teachers replaced with Teach for America types. The anti-union sentiment is a powerful force in Indiana and is one of side effects of the teacher's union supporting mostly Democrats.

Republicans have made no secret of it, they are out to destroy all employee unions. They started in the 80s under a corporate spokesmodel named Ronald Reagan. Unions haven't been completely destroyed yet, but they've been decimated to the point that they are now only about the status quo. Unions give workers power. If you're a corporation, workers having power = bad. God forbid an employer has to provide sick leave, vacation time, and retirement benefits. That shit costs money. Reagan and the republicans are nothing but corporatists who hold or have held government offices. Corporations are entities that operate under the guise of capitalism, but are really the biggest welfare queens you'll ever see. Privatize profits, socialize any and all costs you possibly can.

 

[mike41703]

Republicans have made no secret of it, they are out to destroy all employee unions. They started in the 80s under a corporate spokesmodel named Ronald Reagan. Unions haven't been completely destroyed yet, but they've been decimated to the point that they are now only about the status quo. Unions give workers power. If you're a corporation, workers having power = bad. God forbid an employer has to provide sick leave, vacation time, and retirement benefits. That shit costs money. Reagan and the republicans are nothing but corporatists who hold or have held government offices. Corporations are entities that operate under the guise of capitalism, but are really the biggest welfare queens you'll ever see. Privatize profits, socialize any and all costs you possibly can.

Your post is quite general in nature. With regards to teachers, I think you're a bit off base. They get a lot of sick time, all summer off, and retirement pensions to go along with 403b plan enrollment options. Arguing for unions is fine, but you're going to need a better argument for teachers unions imo.

 

[Sope Creek]

Your post is quite general in nature. With regards to teachers, I think you're a bit off base. They get a lot of sick time, all summer off, and retirement pensions to go along with 403b plan enrollment options. Arguing for unions is fine, but you're going to need a better argument for teachers unions imo.

I'd point to MrsSope's consistent 60-70 hour work weeks with no bonus or overtime pay during the school year as a start . . . .

 

[meridian]

Your post is quite general in nature. With regards to teachers, I think you're a bit off base. They get a lot of sick time, all summer off, and retirement pensions to go along with 403b plan enrollment options. Arguing for unions is fine, but you're going to need a better argument for teachers unions imo.

I am not going to argue in favor the unions since I seriously see both sides of the argument. However, you are off base on other things, such as

1. "All summer off" - It is true, they get the summer off. However, you either forgot or deliberately did not mention that they are not paid during those "off hours." The salaries of teachers and professors are based on 9 months of work, not 12. Maybe you did not know about that. Now, you do. Here's my advice. If you don't know, it's better to let other knowledgeable people talk, instead of advertising your ignorance.
2. "lot of sick time leave"- Yes, they get sick time but no more than other jobs. If you are a steel worker, you will also get sick time leave. If you are a congressman, you take sick time leave. If you are a steel worker, you get sick time leave. If you are a soldier, etc., etc. Why must teachers work when they are sick? In fact, I'd rather have him/her stay home instead of infecting my children. My wife is a teacher, but she really tries hard not to miss classes because there are only so many sick-time leave days allowed.
3. "Retirement pensions" - almost all full-time jobs have some type of retirement benefits. Do you think teachers should not have pensions?
4. "Their pay" is not very good to begin with. It is one of the lowest paying profession with college degrees.
5. They often work at home to catch up, such as grading, preparing, etc. Unlike steel workers, they don't get compensated for this overtime work, not to mention of time-and-half.

I repeat. my earlier advice. If you don't know, it's better to let other knowledgeable people talk, instead of advertising your ignorance.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Your post is quite general in nature. With regards to teachers, I think you're a bit off base. They get a lot of sick time, all summer off, and retirement pensions to go along with 403b plan enrollment options. Arguing for unions is fine, but you're going to need a better argument for teachers unions imo.

Oh you must not know many teachers. Teachers work weekends, summers, nights, and let's not forget paying for school supplies out of their own pockets. For a start...can't say that I'm surprised about the shortage.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Oh you must not know many teachers. Teachers work weekends, summers, nights, and let's not forget paying for school supplies out of their own pockets. For a start...can't say that I'm surprised about the shortage.

Yeah it's not like teachers are finished for the day at 3:30. They have papers to read, assignments to grade, and lesson plans to come up with. Then there's always a parent to deal with somewhere. It's as close to a 24/7 job as you can get. I didn't even scratch the surface of all the extra time that is put in. These people deserve medals. They aren't the lazy, evil, money grubbing union members that republicans make them out to be.

 

[TheSpa]

Oh you must not know many teachers. Teachers work weekends, summers, nights, and let's not forget paying for school supplies out of their own pockets. For a start...can't say that I'm surprised about the shortage.

I'm not aware of any professional who doesn't work nights and weekends, and who doesn't absorb some expenses that would technically be considered "business". There are a number of educators in my family and I often hear these complaints, yet they go quiet when I suggest that they are no different than most white collar workers.

 

[TheSpa]

I am not going to argue in favor the unions since I seriously see both sides of the argument. However, you are off base on other things, such as

1. "All summer off" - It is true, they get the summer off. However, you either forgot or deliberately did not mention that they are not paid during those "off hours." The salaries of teachers and professors are based on 9 months of work, not 12. Maybe you did not know about that. Now, you do. Here's my advice. If you don't know, it's better to let other knowledgeable people talk, instead of advertising your ignorance.
2. "lot of sick time leave"- Yes, they get sick time but no more than other jobs. If you are a steel worker, you will also get sick time leave. If you are a congressman, you take sick time leave. If you are a steel worker, you get sick time leave. If you are a soldier, etc., etc. Why must teachers work when they are sick? In fact, I'd rather have him/her stay home instead of infecting my children. My wife is a teacher, but she really tries hard not to miss classes because there are only so many sick-time leave days allowed.
3. "Retirement pensions" - almost all full-time jobs have some type of retirement benefits. Do you think teachers should not have pensions?
4. "Their pay" is not very good to begin with. It is one of the lowest paying profession with college degrees.
5. They often work at home to catch up, such as grading, preparing, etc. Unlike steel workers, they don't get compensated for this overtime work, not to mention of time-and-half.

I repeat. my earlier advice. If you don't know, it's better to let other knowledgeable people talk, instead of advertising your ignorance.

Since you've repeatedly compared teachers to blue collar workers (paid time off, pensions, work hours), do you consider them to be just that? By the way, defined benefit pensions are increasingly disappearing in the private sector, while they continue to be prevalent for public employees, including teachers.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

I'm not aware of any professional who doesn't work nights and weekends, and who doesn't absorb some expenses that would technically be considered "business". There are a number of educators in my family and I often hear these complaints, yet they go quiet when I suggest that they are no different than most white collar workers.

They go quiet because it's such a ridiculous statement there's really no argument. It catches them off guard that someone can be that ignorant and then they realize there's no point in arguing anything with them. I've had blue collar jobs and I've had white collar jobs. 9 times out of 10 when my workday was over that was it for me. Nothing to take home and work on throughout the night or to work on over the weekend. Supervisory positions I've had required me to do extra work outside of my scheduled 8-4 or 9-5 slot, but just as an everyday worker I had nothing extra to do. ALL teachers have extra work to do when the school day is over. Yes I would have to buy dress clothes and stuff for certain jobs, but unless I gained weight the clothing wasn't a recurring expense like the things teachers have to buy year in and year out.

 

[TheSpa]

They go quiet because it's such a ridiculous statement there's really no argument. It catches them off guard that someone can be that ignorant and then they realize there's no point in arguing anything with them. I've had blue collar jobs and I've had white collar jobs. 9 times out of 10 when my workday was over that was it for me. Nothing to take home and work on throughout the night or to work on over the weekend. Supervisory positions I've had required me to do extra work outside of my scheduled 8-4 or 9-5 slot, but just as an everyday worker I had nothing extra to do. ALL teachers have extra work to do when the school day is over. Yes I would have to buy dress clothes and stuff for certain jobs, but unless I gained weight the clothing wasn't a recurring expense like the things teachers have to buy year in and year out.

No, it's very much the reality for many / most white collar jobs. You weren't specific in respect of your experiences, so it's likely you're simply generalizing in an effort to try and win an argument. You're "experiences", which likely are made up, are the exceptioN, and you look typically foolish in attempting to make such a stupid argument.

 

[zeke4ahs]

I'm not aware of any professional who doesn't work nights and weekends, and who doesn't absorb some expenses that would technically be considered "business". There are a number of educators in my family and I often hear these complaints, yet they go quiet when I suggest that they are no different than most white collar workers.

You have got to be kidding? You've never heard of expense accounts? There are trillions of white collar jobs that don't pay for a dime out of pocket. I'm with people all the time that pick up the check for a multitude of things because of that. And there are many, many business jobs that are basically 9-5.

 

[zeke4ahs]

I'm not aware of any professional who doesn't work nights and weekends, and who doesn't absorb some expenses that would technically be considered "business". There are a number of educators in my family and I often hear these complaints, yet they go quiet when I suggest that they are no different than most white collar workers.

And if they are no different than most white collar workers, why don't they get paid as such? Pretty sad you have educators in your family and you have such little knowledge and respect for them. Go shadow one for a day ...

 

[TheSpa]

And if they are no different than most white collar workers, why don't they get paid as such? Pretty sad you have educators in your family and you have such little knowledge and respect for them. Go shadow one for a day ...

I'm not the one who compared them to blue collar workers. That was actually the spouse of a teacher, who likely deserves your faux wrath. As for pay, should anyone who works 3/4 of the year be paid at a rate consistent with those who work a full year? And should their vacation schedules be at least as good as annual workers? And should their retirement benefits be considerably better than most?

I certainly respect the work of teachers, but that doesn't mean they're immune from questions such as these. And as for general knowledge of the profession, you seem to possess little, likely intentionally so. Perhaps you should educate yourself before you falsely criticize others. It will help you look a bit more intelligent next time.

 

[TheSpa]

You have got to be kidding? You've never heard of expense accounts? There are trillions of white collar jobs that don't pay for a dime out of pocket. I'm with people all the time that pick up the check for a multitude of things because of that. And there are many, many business jobs that are basically 9-5.

Of course I've heard of them. It doesn't mean every expense is universally captured. And, while a number of jobs are 9-5, many of them are also 12 months in duration, with as little as two weeks of vacation annually. And many involve night and weekend work, just like some teachers. Do you really want to try and match this stuff up?

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

No, it's very much the reality for many / most white collar jobs. You weren't specific in respect of your experiences, so it's likely you're simply generalizing in an effort to try and win an argument. You're "experiences", which likely are made up, are the exceptioN, and you look typically foolish in attempting to make such a stupid argument.

You're oversimplifying and not comparing white collar apples to apples. Many of the professional positions that have implied unpaid overtime requirements pay quite well compared to IN teachers. I've been a professional my entire non-Army career and it wasn't really until I started getting positions of increased authority and pay that I ever had to work unpaid time during nights and weekends. I suspect most people are in the same situation.

I personally don't think all teachers are underpaid - that's far too unsupportable. However, I'll give you two examples. My mother, who retired recently as a career teacher in IN never made more than $65k after decades of work. Contrast that with my wife, a teacher in PA, who makes that now with 1/3 the years of service. She also has insanely good health benefits and a pension that'd blow your mind. Teachers in our county don't complain - they know they've got it good. Thus the districts are able to recruit top talent and retain them.

My moms district is laying teachers off left and right due to the poor revenue management practices of IN; this is despite being in one of the wealthiest districts in the state and despite their low salaries. Pence has really jacked up the IN department of education and the whole state is now paying the price. The lack of supply of teachers in IN is to be expected given the current policies and employment terms there.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

You have got to be kidding? You've never heard of expense accounts? There are trillions of white collar jobs that don't pay for a dime out of pocket. I'm with people all the time that pick up the check for a multitude of things because of that. And there are many, many business jobs that are basically 9-5.

Nah zeke, that's just some generalization you've made up.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

No, it's very much the reality for many / most white collar jobs. You weren't specific in respect of your experiences, so it's likely you're simply generalizing in an effort to try and win an argument. You're "experiences", which likely are made up, are the exceptioN, and you look typically foolish in attempting to make such a stupid argument.

Yeah, like all those specifics you mentioned? You simply said you weren't aware of any. I said I was. It's just as solid as the "argument" you made. Check the mirror.

 

[TheSpa]

Yeah, like all those specifics you mentioned? You simply said you weren't aware of any. I said I was. It's just as solid as the "argument" you made. Check the mirror.

Yet you've failed to provide even one example to support your assertion. Again, you're generalizing in a manner that strongly suggests your "experiences" aren't real. Of course, you're free to provide actual examples, in contrast to all of your previous posts.

 

[IUCrazy2]

You have got to be kidding? You've never heard of expense accounts? There are trillions of white collar jobs that don't pay for a dime out of pocket. I'm with people all the time that pick up the check for a multitude of things because of that. And there are many, many business jobs that are basically 9-5.

Most white collar workers outside of supervisors don't get anywhere near an expense account.

I'm all for paying teachers more, I'm alright with giving them some autonomy in the classroom, however, I think they need to have some measurable results. I think the problem that quite a few people have with the teachers union (and by extension, some teachers) is that the profession comes across as awfully whiny. They have an important job and they are underpaid in comparison to some other jobs but one can sometimes get the impression that teachers think that they are the only folks who put in long hours and don't receive overtime pay (ask accountants about that) or that they are the only ones who have to come out of pocket for things at work (for certain supplies, I've always had to provide my own, some the company gives and some they don't.) They have an important profession but they aren't the ONLY important profession out there that has faced trouble lately. I personally have the impression that teachers are about the whiniest professional group that I can think of right now. Some of that is probably earned but after awhile the argument that they may have gets lost amongst all of the bitching and moaning. It is a big turn off. And I know that I'm not the only one who feels that way.

I think that there should be a raise given to teachers and we should try some programs to try and get more of the better educated high school students into teaching (like loan forgiveness on school loans in exchange for spending a set amount of years in the classroom). However, this isn't just a creation of the evil Republicans. The teachers have their own PR issue as well and I think quite a bit of it has to do with what I mentioned above and the fact that they are in a right leaning state but tend to lean left in a very vocal way within the state. I'm not willing to give either side a free pass on the problem.

 

[meridian]

Since you've repeatedly compared teachers to blue collar workers (paid time off, pensions, work hours), do you consider them to be just that? .

Where did you get that idea that I am comparing to the blue collar workers? I was responding to Mike's post, which "complained" how well paid teachers are, that they work only 9 months, etc. If you want to attack somebody, read the post before you open your big mouth, er, keyboard.

Also, repeatedly? How many times did I say it? In case you don't know English well, "repeat" means more than once, technically that is. In reality, "repeatedly" means many times. So, how many times did I say it?

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Most white collar workers outside of supervisors don't get anywhere near an expense account.

I'm all for paying teachers more, I'm alright with giving them some autonomy in the classroom, however, I think they need to have some measurable results. I think the problem that quite a few people have with the teachers union (and by extension, some teachers) is that the profession comes across as awfully whiny. They have an important job and they are underpaid in comparison to some other jobs but one can sometimes get the impression that teachers think that they are the only folks who put in long hours and don't receive overtime pay (ask accountants about that) or that they are the only ones who have to come out of pocket for things at work (for certain supplies, I've always had to provide my own, some the company gives and some they don't.) They have an important profession but they aren't the ONLY important profession out there that has faced trouble lately. I personally have the impression that teachers are about the whiniest professional group that I can think of right now. Some of that is probably earned but after awhile the argument that they may have gets lost amongst all of the bitching and moaning. It is a big turn off. And I know that I'm not the only one who feels that way.

I think that there should be a raise given to teachers and we should try some programs to try and get more of the better educated high school students into teaching (like loan forgiveness on school loans in exchange for spending a set amount of years in the classroom). However, this isn't just a creation of the evil Republicans. The teachers have their own PR issue as well and I think quite a bit of it has to do with what I mentioned above and the fact that they are in a right leaning state but tend to lean left in a very vocal way within the state. I'm not willing to give either side a free pass on the problem.

I think this is spot on. Teacher pay has to be optimized to minimize cost while maximizing performance. If you underpay, you get what you have brewing in IN.

I come from a family of teachers and they are very whiny. Mainly I think it's because they don't have perspective but they're also somewhat right. They've worked in a district their entire life whereas most professionals change industries and employers and gain perspective. But they also look at other states' teachers that are making way more money than they are and with better benefits.

If the IN establishment wants to commoditize teaching, they're on the right track. If they want to attract top talent into teaching, they're bass ackwards.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Yet you've failed to provide even one example to support your assertion. Again, you're generalizing in a manner that strongly suggests your "experiences" aren't real. Of course, you're free to provide actual examples, in contrast to all of your previous posts.

I'm not sure what you want... The names of people I went to lunches with and the companies they work for? The most recent was last week when my financial advisor took me to Seasons 52. Is that specific enough?

 

[zeke4ahs]

I think this is spot on. Teacher pay has to be optimized to minimize cost while maximizing performance. If you underpay, you get what you have brewing in IN.

I come from a family of teachers and they are very whiny. Mainly I think it's because they don't have perspective but they're also somewhat right. They've worked in a district their entire life whereas most professionals change industries and employers and gain perspective. But they also look at other states' teachers that are making way more money than they are and with better benefits.

If the IN establishment wants to commoditize teaching, they're on the right track. If they want to attract top talent into teaching, they're bass ackwards.

 

[zeke4ahs]

You're oversimplifying and not comparing white collar apples to apples. Many of the professional positions that have implied unpaid overtime requirements pay quite well compared to IN teachers. I've been a professional my entire non-Army career and it wasn't really until I started getting positions of increased authority and pay that I ever had to work unpaid time during nights and weekends. I suspect most people are in the same situation.

I personally don't think all teachers are underpaid - that's far too unsupportable. However, I'll give you two examples. My mother, who retired recently as a career teacher in IN never made more than $65k after decades of work. Contrast that with my wife, a teacher in PA, who makes that now with 1/3 the years of service. She also has insanely good health benefits and a pension that'd blow your mind. Teachers in our county don't complain - they know they've got it good. Thus the districts are able to recruit top talent and retain them.

My moms district is laying teachers off left and right due to the poor revenue management practices of IN; this is despite being in one of the wealthiest districts in the state and despite their low salaries. Pence has really jacked up the IN department of education and the whole state is now paying the price. The lack of supply of teachers in IN is to be expected given the current policies and employment terms there.

Wow... So teachers are whiny. Again. Please. Shadow a teacher , especially one in an inner city classroom. Then we'll talk. Was meant as a reply to anyone here mentioning "whiny" teachers. Another big issue is the constant disrespect, as you see in this thread. I wouldn't begin to tell you how to do your job, as I know I'm not qualified. But everyone feels qualified as an expert to comment on how an educator should do their jobs.

 

[TheSpa]

Where did you get that idea that I am comparing to the blue collar workers? I was responding to Mike's post, which "complained" how well paid teachers are, that they work only 9 months, etc. If you want to attack somebody, read the post before you open your big mouth, er, keyboard.

Also, repeatedly? How many times did I say it? In case you don't know English well, "repeat" means more than once, technically that is. In reality, "repeatedly" means many times. So, how many times did I say it?

You used "steel workers" as your basis of comparison in two of your five examples, so I can agree that "repeatedly" overstates it. I can also conclude that you're otherwise unable to offer any relevant counterpoints, which perhaps means you've heeded your own advice and chosen to not comment further and exhibit your ignorance.

 

[TheSpa]

Wow... So teachers are whiny. Again. Please. Shadow a teacher , especially one in an inner city classroom. Then we'll talk.

No one is saying that many teachers don't do quality work and, further, that some inherent inequities exist that negatively impact the profession. But this notion that teachers suffer from obvious and unique indignities and unfair challenges in the face of their altruistic mission is, well, whiny at times.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Yet you've failed to provide even one example to support your assertion. Again, you're generalizing in a manner that strongly suggests your "experiences" aren't real. Of course, you're free to provide actual examples, in contrast to all of your previous posts.

I'm just following your model. You started the argument and provided no examples. I don't see why I should be held to a higher standard. I'm not going into all the details of my jobs with Humana, Aetna, and all my experiences as a healthcare worker. That would be a ridiculously long post and I'm not typing all that out. Of course, you're free to give no examples while dismissing others for not giving examples. It's sort of entertaining.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

I'm not sure what you want... The names of people I went to lunches with and the companies they work for? The most recent was last week when my financial advisor took me to Seasons 52. Is that specific enough?

Zeke, you don't find it humorous that he demands examples of your arguments, yet he hasn't provided the first damn example for is own?

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Wow... So teachers are whiny. Again. Please. Shadow a teacher , especially one in an inner city classroom. Then we'll talk. Was meant as a reply to anyone here mentioning "whiny" teachers. Another big issue is the constant disrespect, as you see in this thread. I wouldn't begin to tell you how to do your job, as I know I'm not qualified. But everyone feels qualified as an expert to comment on how an educator should do their jobs.

Easy there. I'm very pro-public school teacher. The ones in my family (>5) are whiny. Some of it is justified (their pay) and some of it ("my boss wants to check on my work") is just plain whining absent perspective. My mother really got appalled because her principal wanted to check on her lesson plans. Oh the humanity! If I pushed back on my boss wanting to check on my plans at work, I'd be out the door pretty quickly.

I am not qualified to do their jobs, I do believe they're underpaid (in Indiana), and I do believe that the ones in my family are whiny. Indiana is commoditizing teacher jobs. If that's what the populace wants, they're getting it. I doubt it's what they want but then again they voted for a governor who said he would do exactly this.

 

[TheSpa]

I'm just following your model. You started the argument and provided no examples. I don't see why I should be held to a higher standard. I'm not going into all the details of my jobs with Humana, Aetna, and all my experiences as a healthcare worker. That would be a ridiculously long post and I'm not typing all that out. Of course, you're free to give no examples while dismissing others for not giving examples. It's sort of entertaining.

I started nothing. You've been general and effectively unresponsive, presumably because you're unable to support your assertions. You could always offer something / anything to bolster your position, but you've consistently chosen not to, then whined because I've called you on it.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Wow... So teachers are whiny. Again. Please. Shadow a teacher , especially one in an inner city classroom. Then we'll talk. Was meant as a reply to anyone here mentioning "whiny" teachers. Another big issue is the constant disrespect, as you see in this thread. I wouldn't begin to tell you how to do your job, as I know I'm not qualified. But everyone feels qualified as an expert to comment on how an educator should do their jobs.

I think you're being unfair. Reading the whole context of his post, I don't think it was meant to be insulting.

 

[meridian]

You used "steel workers" as your basis of comparison in two of your five examples, so I can agree that "repeatedly" overstates it. I can also conclude that you're otherwise unable to offer any relevant counterpoints, which perhaps means you've heeded your own advice and chosen to not comment further and exhibit your ignorance.

OK, I traced back to my original post, and I found out where you got this misconceived idea.

Mike said:
"They get a lot of sick time, all summer off, and retirement pensions to go along with 403b plan enrollment options..."

Don't you think it sounds like
"teachers have some kind of privilege with sick time leave (a lot of?), all summer off, and retirement pensions as if they have some special privileges only teachers have?"
No, I don't think you are able to understand that. Anyway, moving on,

I responded categorically to the above, and you jumped in w/o knowing what we were talking about. Come to think about it, without knowing what you are talking about as well.

I used steel workers only because of the way Mike was addressing..

This "debate" is going nowhere and I have neither desire nor time to waste on you. Go pick on teachers and steel workers.

 

[TheSpa]

Wow... So teachers are whiny. Again. Please. Shadow a teacher , especially one in an inner city classroom. Then we'll talk. Was meant as a reply to anyone here mentioning "whiny" teachers. Another big issue is the constant disrespect, as you see in this thread. I wouldn't begin to tell you how to do your job, as I know I'm not qualified. But everyone feels qualified as an expert to comment on how an educator should do their jobs.

In other w

OK, I traced back to my original post, and I found out where you got this misconceived idea.

Mike said:
"They get a lot of sick time, all summer off, and retirement pensions to go along with 403b plan enrollment options..."

Don't you think it sounds like
"teachers have some kind of privilege with sick time leave (a lot of?), all summer off, and retirement pensions as if they have some special privileges only teachers have?"
No, I don't think you are able to understand that. Anyway, moving on,

I responded categorically to the above, and you jumped in w/o knowing what we were talking about. Come to think about it, without knowing what you are talking about as well.

I used steel workers only because of the way Mike was addressing..

This "debate" is going nowhere and I have neither desire nor time to waste on you. Go pick on teachers and steel workers. [/QUOT

Your disjointed reply suggests you don't really have an understanding of your original point, whatever it might have been. No one is "picking on" teachers or steel workers, your thin skin notwithstanding.

 

[TheSpa]

OK, I traced back to my original post, and I found out where you got this misconceived idea.

Mike said:
"They get a lot of sick time, all summer off, and retirement pensions to go along with 403b plan enrollment options..."

Don't you think it sounds like
"teachers have some kind of privilege with sick time leave (a lot of?), all summer off, and retirement pensions as if they have some special privileges only teachers have?"
No, I don't think you are able to understand that. Anyway, moving on,

I responded categorically to the above, and you jumped in w/o knowing what we were talking about. Come to think about it, without knowing what you are talking about as well.

I used steel workers only because of the way Mike was addressing..

This "debate" is going nowhere and I have neither desire nor time to waste on you. Go pick on teachers and steel workers.

I'm not sure even you understand your original point, given your disjointed post. That you're unable to defend or support it should cause you concern, however.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

Disaster Capitalism. Republicans want to destroy the current educational system so they can let their corporate friends privatize it. They'll continue to go after those evil teachers and make cuts and defund wherever they can. It will eventually completely fall apart, due to them f*cking it up, then they'll scream about how public education doesn't work and it will pave the way for total privatization.

very well said.

 

[mike41703]

Oh you must not know many teachers. Teachers work weekends, summers, nights, and let's not forget paying for school supplies out of their own pockets. For a start...can't say that I'm surprised about the shortage.

I'm married to one. I understand the complaints. But its not as bad as some want others to think.