Indiana has a problem ... Mike Pence/David Long

[mike41703]

I am not going to argue in favor the unions since I seriously see both sides of the argument. However, you are off base on other things, such as

1. "All summer off" - It is true, they get the summer off. However, you either forgot or deliberately did not mention that they are not paid during those "off hours." The salaries of teachers and professors are based on 9 months of work, not 12. Maybe you did not know about that. Now, you do. Here's my advice. If you don't know, it's better to let other knowledgeable people talk, instead of advertising your ignorance.
2. "lot of sick time leave"- Yes, they get sick time but no more than other jobs. If you are a steel worker, you will also get sick time leave. If you are a congressman, you take sick time leave. If you are a steel worker, you get sick time leave. If you are a soldier, etc., etc. Why must teachers work when they are sick? In fact, I'd rather have him/her stay home instead of infecting my children. My wife is a teacher, but she really tries hard not to miss classes because there are only so many sick-time leave days allowed.
3. "Retirement pensions" - almost all full-time jobs have some type of retirement benefits. Do you think teachers should not have pensions?
4. "Their pay" is not very good to begin with. It is one of the lowest paying profession with college degrees.
5. They often work at home to catch up, such as grading, preparing, etc. Unlike steel workers, they don't get compensated for this overtime work, not to mention of time-and-half.

I repeat. my earlier advice. If you don't know, it's better to let other knowledgeable people talk, instead of advertising your ignorance.

1. I'm well aware how math works.
2. I work a professional job and don't have the ability to roll days over year to year. While teachers may not get more than others, they can amass a load of days for when they really need them. Not bad. You should know this considering you proclaimed yourself knowledgable. Apparently you aren't.
3. No, most full time jobs don't come with pensions. Teachers still have this luxury, although I believe they actually have to contribute a small portion each check to receive it now...which makes perfect sense. Still a good deal.
4. If you'd read my original post I was arguing for higher pay. Please read before making yourself look ignorant.
5. Your first decent point. 20% isn't bad I guess. But really, like someone else said, most professionals work from home these days and don't get compensated for it. So in hindsight, it's really not your first decent point.

Last but not least, you apparently disagree with me on some level here. But being an a$$ didn't serve you too well.

 

[hoot1]

As one of the older posters at the Cooler, I can recall the time when teachers were highly respected. Parents especially held them in high regard.

My aunts were some of the first females I knew who actually had graduated from college. Like many women of the day, teaching was the chosen profession for my aunts who graduated from college. One of them just like many other teachers never married. Aunt Harriett was married to teaching.

In looking back, I realize the teachers of my day didn't really earn a great deal of money. The respect they earned must have compensated for the lack of pay.

In reading this thread, I cannot help but observe that teachers in many homes simply aren't respected. This plus too many students who don't treat education as being important has to contribute to the fact that in Indiana and some other states are seeing the number of teachers declining. What is worse is the field of primary and secondary education hasn't been a big draw for top notch college graduates for several decades. On top of that, all careers are now open for women.

Will more charter schools and privatizing education suddenly make teaching a respected education again? Can more pay suddenly make teaching attractive to our higher ranking college grads? I rather doubt it.

 

[mike41703]

Where did you get that idea that I am comparing to the blue collar workers? I was responding to Mike's post, which "complained" how well paid teachers are, that they work only 9 months, etc. If you want to attack somebody, read the post before you open your big mouth, er, keyboard.

Also, repeatedly? How many times did I say it? In case you don't know English well, "repeat" means more than once, technically that is. In reality, "repeatedly" means many times. So, how many times did I say it?

Combing back over things, I do have to ask... Where did I complain how well teachers are paid? Talk about looking ignorant. I specifically said the opposite. I know certain people can only see what they want to see but you totally whiffed here.

 

[meridian]

Combing back over things, I do have to ask... Where did I complain how well teachers are paid? Talk about looking ignorant. I specifically said the opposite. I know certain people can only see what they want to see but you totally whiffed here.

This is what you said in your response to SuperHoosierFan:

" With regards to teachers, I think you're a bit off base. They get a lot of sick time, all summer off, and retirement pensions to go along with 403b plan enrollment options..."

Tell me how I misinterpreted your statement..

 

[mike41703]

This is what you said in your response to SuperHoosierFan:

" With regards to teachers, I think you're a bit off base. They get a lot of sick time, all summer off, and retirement pensions to go along with 403b plan enrollment options..."

Tell me how I misinterpreted your statement..

I feel embarrassed to have to say this again. But you stated I said teachers get paid well. I refuted that. Go back to my very first post. I want to bump UP teacher pay.

What you copied in quotations is me saying that the entire occupation as a whole isn't broken. Just part of it. There are still some perks to being a teacher. I would like to see the state fix things before it gets worse though. Anything else you're incapable of comprehending?

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

I started nothing. You've been general and effectively unresponsive, presumably because you're unable to support your assertions. You could always offer something / anything to bolster your position, but you've consistently chosen not to, then whined because I've called you on it.

You most certainly did. You said you weren't aware of any professionals who didn't work nights, weekends, blah blah blah. You made a broad generalization with exactly zero examples or any kind of proof/data other than a story about shutting down some family members when you make another broad generalization about them being no different than any white collar worker. I believe you just made it up in a poor attempt to make what you think is a point. I think you made up being married to a teacher. I think you've made up everything you've posted as you you haven't given the first concrete example of anything. Go ahead, make something else up. I'm not whining about anything. I'm merely pointing out you're guilty of providing no proof as is your complaint about me.

 

[TheSpa]

You most certainly did. You said you weren't aware of any professionals who didn't work nights, weekends, blah blah blah. You made a broad generalization with exactly zero examples or any kind of proof/data other than a story about shutting down some family members when you make another broad generalization about them being no different than any white collar worker. I believe you just made it up in a poor attempt to make what you think is a point. I think you made up being married to a teacher. I think you've made up everything you've posted as you you haven't given the first concrete example of anything. Go ahead, make something else up. I'm not whining about anything. I'm merely pointing out you're guilty of providing no proof as is your complaint about me.

I don't know any professionals whose jobs don't stretch well beyond the traditional work day. Not a single one. They're either answering emails, doing reports, catching up on unfinished items from that day, doing expense reports, filling out billable hours forms, engaging in continuous education, etc. And it's not a sometime thing. It's the vast majority of the time. If you were a professional, this wouldn't be difficult to understand. Since you're obviously not . . .

My wife taught full time for a number of years, including serving as the head of her department. Since she retired, she's been a regular substitute teacher for several years. Additionally, one of my sisters is an assistant principal. So, yeah, I know quite a bit about this stuff, including both the sacrifices teachers make as well as the unrealistic bubble within which they sometimes exist. Most, if honest, acknowledge it.

You, on the other hand, know little, other than your cliched and worn out talking points. And you've offered nothing in support of any of your positions here. Not one thing. An educator (or being educated) you clearly are not.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

I don't know any professionals whose jobs don't stretch well beyond the traditional work day. Not a single one. They're either answering emails, doing reports, catching up on unfinished items from that day, doing expense reports, filling out billable hours forms, engaging in continuous education, etc. And it's not a sometime thing. It's the vast majority of the time. If you were a professional, this wouldn't be difficult to understand. Since you're obviously not . . .

My wife taught full time for a number of years, including serving as the head of her department. Since she retired, she's been a regular substitute teacher for several years. Additionally, one of my sisters is an assistant principal. So, yeah, I know quite a bit about this stuff, including both the sacrifices teachers make as well as the unrealistic bubble within which they sometimes exist. Most, if honest, acknowledge it.

You, on the other hand, know little, other than your cliched and worn out talking points. And you've offered nothing in support of any of your positions here. Not one thing. An educator (or being educated) you clearly are not.

That's fine. You say you don't know any. I'm saying I do. When I was in the IT dept at Humana my job started at 7am and it was over at 3:30. Some people came in at 9 and stayed til 5:30. I chose to do the earlier shift. When I left at 3:30, my day was done. No emails, no reports, no billing, nothing. Khakis and dress shirts were my only expense. It was the same at the entry level position I had with them. It wasn't until I did marketing that I had anything to do outside of regular work hours. That involved travel to do presentations to provider groups when Gold Choice was getting started. Still nothing ever came out my own pocket. I had an...wait for it...expense account.

 

[TheSpa]

That's fine. You say you don't know any. I'm saying I do. When I was in the IT dept at Humana my job started at 7am and it was over at 3:30. Some people came in at 9 and stayed til 5:30. I chose to do the earlier shift. When I left at 3:30, my day was done. No emails, no reports, no billing, nothing. Khakis and dress shirts were my only expense. It was the same at the entry level position I had with them. It wasn't until I did marketing that I had anything to do outside of regular work hours. That involved travel to do presentations to provider groups when Gold Choice was getting started. Still nothing ever came out my own pocket. I had an...wait for it...expense account.

I would submit that your experience is very much the exception, and it's becoming rarer every day. Our IT people, for instance, are in on weekends and evenings doing system maintenance work, and OT isn't a part of their gig. Plus, they routinely field local, off hours calls regarding hardware availability. It's simply a fact of life in today's working world.

I'm fully aware of how expense reports work, having had one for 30 years. But almost no one captures each and every expense to which they're entitled, if only because it would be impractical. Teachers are no exception to this reality, which is common practice.

 

[mike41703]

I would submit that your experience is very much the exception, and it's becoming rarer every day. Our IT people, for instance, are in on weekends and evenings doing system maintenance work, and OT isn't a part of their gig. Plus, they routinely field local, off hours calls regarding hardware availability. It's simply a fact of life in today's working world.

I'm fully aware of how expense reports work, having had one for 30 years. But almost no one captures each and every expense to which they're entitled, if only because it would be impractical. Teachers are no exception to this reality, which is common practice.

Spot on. This has been my experience as well. Not for 30 yrs but a dozen or so.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

I would submit that your experience is very much the exception, and it's becoming rarer every day. Our IT people, for instance, are in on weekends and evenings doing system maintenance work, and OT isn't a part of their gig. Plus, they routinely field local, off hours calls regarding hardware availability. It's simply a fact of life in today's working world.

I'm fully aware of how expense reports work, having had one for 30 years. But almost no one captures each and every expense to which they're entitled, if only because it would be impractical. Teachers are no exception to this reality, which is common practice.

It looks like we just know different groups of people. It wasn't rare at the time I was doing white collar work and it's still not a rare thing for a lot of white collar workers I know. Of course I know people, especially in sales, who pretty much work non-stop, but I could never say I'm "not aware of any" who don't have to work extra in the evenings, weekends, holidays etc. I know plenty of white collar workers who do their 8-4 or 9-5 and that's it. I can tell you I don't know a single full-time teacher who doesn't have to pretty much work 24/7. They have the classroom time and then at home they have reading, grading, lesson plans and then there are parent teacher conferences, after school activities, field trips etc. I seriously doubt I'd ever meet a teacher who only works between the morning and afternoon bells.

 

[IUCrazy2]

As one of the older posters at the Cooler, I can recall the time when teachers were highly respected. Parents especially held them in high regard.

My aunts were some of the first females I knew who actually had graduated from college. Like many women of the day, teaching was the chosen profession for my aunts who graduated from college. One of them just like many other teachers never married. Aunt Harriett was married to teaching.

In looking back, I realize the teachers of my day didn't really earn a great deal of money. The respect they earned must have compensated for the lack of pay.

In reading this thread, I cannot help but observe that teachers in many homes simply aren't respected. This plus too many students who don't treat education as being important has to contribute to the fact that in Indiana and some other states are seeing the number of teachers declining. What is worse is the field of primary and secondary education hasn't been a big draw for top notch college graduates for several decades. On top of that, all careers are now open for women.

Will more charter schools and privatizing education suddenly make teaching a respected education again? Can more pay suddenly make teaching attractive to our higher ranking college grads? I rather doubt it.

I view it a little differently. I think teachers still do have pull...I don't think Glenda Ritz sniffs her position without teachers going to bat for her in Indiana. And as someone in the thread who may be viewed as not having respect for the job that teachers do with my "whiny" comment, I don't feel that way. I respect the job they do, I appreciate it is a hard job, and I appreciate that they are probably under compensated for it (at least the moderate to good ones are). However, I do think they tend to overstate their case a bit.

Let me put it this way, in your office there is that person who tends to be pretty vocal with their complaints. Many of their complaints are valid...but they harp on the complaints over and over and they tend to dismiss that anyone else could be in the same boat. They broach little criticism of themselves. So while you at first may have agreed with them and maybe do continue to agree with most of their points, there comes that point where you just get tired of hearing them complain. I would put myself in that category with teachers on the whole. Yeah, they have some valid complaints but you almost get the feeling from them that they feel they are unassailable. You see it in this thread. "You don't do the job so you can't have an opinion..." Well know, I don't do the job. But I do see the results of the job and you can tell when the results aren't always up to par. Let's have a rational discussion that allows us to make sure that we weed out those of you who should have another vocation that you are better at and at the same time figure out how to pay you at a rate that is fair and will attract talented individuals to the field.

One last thought, I think with teachers that many people tend to love their teacher and view those other teachers as the problem. Kind of like politicians. They rate low on the whole but incumbents tend to hold their seats.

 

[meridian]

Last but not least, you apparently disagree with me on some level here. But being an a$$ didn't serve you too well.

People do disagree. I don't know why you have to rely on insults to di

I feel embarrassed to have to say this again. But you stated I said teachers get paid well. I refuted that. Go back to my very first post. I want to bump UP teacher pay.

What you copied in quotations is me saying that the entire occupation as a whole isn't broken. Just part of it. There are still some perks to being a teacher. I would like to see the state fix things before it gets worse though. Anything else you're incapable of comprehending?

OK, I went back to the beginning of the thread and down and I located the very post you are talking about. There is nothing I can disagree with. You are right on the money.
Unlike some of the people in this group, I don't read every post, only the ones that catch my eyes. I don't have the time to read all of them, much of them nothing but insulting and counter-insulting; those do not interest me.

 

[mike41703]

It looks like we just know different groups of people. It wasn't rare at the time I was doing white collar work and it's still not a rare thing for a lot of white collar workers I know. Of course I know people, especially in sales, who pretty much work non-stop, but I could never say I'm "not aware of any" who don't have to work extra in the evenings, weekends, holidays etc. I know plenty of white collar workers who do their 8-4 or 9-5 and that's it. I can tell you I don't know a single full-time teacher who doesn't have to pretty much work 24/7. They have the classroom time and then at home they have reading, grading, lesson plans and then there are parent teacher conferences, after school activities, field trips etc. I seriously doubt I'd ever meet a teacher who only works between the morning and afternoon bells.

Hey, don't get me wrong, my wife works hard and she's a good teacher. High school math isn't anything to joke about. But she doesn't work 24/7. None of her coworkers whom we hang out with during the summers either at the lake, the bar, a baseball game, etc work 24/7 either.

After school activities are called coaches. Parent/teacher conferences do suck, but they're once a semester. That's two 4-hr sessions per year. So, in summary, it's really not all that different from any other professional job.

My wife gets so bored during the summers(even with 3 young kids) that she has to plan teacher outings and golf outings, etc. The whole 24/7 thing you're playing is a bit over dramatic. Some people do love drama though.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Hey, don't get me wrong, my wife works hard and she's a good teacher. High school math isn't anything to joke about. But she doesn't work 24/7. None of her coworkers whom we hang out with during the summers either at the lake, the bar, a baseball game, etc work 24/7 either.

After school activities are called coaches. Parent/teacher conferences do suck, but they're once a semester. That's two 4-hr sessions per year. So, in summary, it's really not all that different from any other professional job.

My wife gets so bored during the summers(even with 3 young kids) that she has to plan teacher outings and golf outings, etc. The whole 24/7 thing you're playing is a bit over dramatic. Some people do love drama though.

I did only mention the "formal" parent teacher conferences, but a lot of teachers I know are dealing with/meeting with parents much more often. Not every after school activity is a sport. Yes, they do have free time in the summer, but from my experiences it wasn't nearly as long as the full summer vacation. There were meetings after the school year. There were meetings during the summer. There were meetings just before the school year and then there was getting the classroom ready for the next group of kids (on her own time during the summer). I helped with and took her to a lot of these things. Once the school year started it was pretty much non stop. This experience is from a relationship a few years ago. It was rare that we had time to go out. We did, but it was rare. Maybe 15-16 hours 5-6 days a week during the school year (Sunday was usually a slower day) is a better description and less "dramatic" for you. I mean, she did sleep. This is just my personal experience with an educator and her friends.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

It clearly is not everyone, but a physics teacher at Bloomington North made it clear that if a student needed help they were encouraged to call his home until 10pm any night. He said many parents were not equipped to help with physics. As a parent, that impressed the heck out of me.

Obviously some teachers go above and beyond. But the thread can go a different way, why have we abandoned all pretext to a 40 hour workweek? Why does corporate America gain the power to expect far more? I am as guilty as anyone of logging in from home and working off-hours or on vacation. But why should we do that so a CEO can get a huge bonus? German companies are extremely competitve, until this year they were the world's number on exporter. China just passed them, but with China's problems Germany may move back to #1. Germany is about the size of Ohio and Indiana. How do their corporations kick the butt of American in exports AND have their people work so many fewer hours. Why is there such imbalance in the balance of power in American labor towards corporations and why do so many Americans want that balance tilted even more toward corporations?

 

[zeke4ahs]

Hey, don't get me wrong, my wife works hard and she's a good teacher. High school math isn't anything to joke about. But she doesn't work 24/7. None of her coworkers whom we hang out with during the summers either at the lake, the bar, a baseball game, etc work 24/7 either.

After school activities are called coaches. Parent/teacher conferences do suck, but they're once a semester. That's two 4-hr sessions per year. So, in summary, it's really not all that different from any other professional job.

My wife gets so bored during the summers(even with 3 young kids) that she has to plan teacher outings and golf outings, etc. The whole 24/7 thing you're playing is a bit over dramatic. Some people do love drama though.

Your wife and maybe her whole school then is certainly different than ours. We get 6 weeks for the summer. We have multiple conferences and workshops , some required to attend and some mandatory. Most teachers I know spend several days after school is out organizing and cleaning. Most teachers I know spend several days, up to a week, working in the room before school starts. In elementary, some part of the curriculum changes every year, so there is time spent becoming familiar with that. Not sure, ever in my life, have I heard of a teacher bored in the summer.
After school activities are called coaches? You certainly have a limited perspective. After school activities include tutoring, student council, detention, Boys to Men, Girls Club, Welcome Committe, Debate Club, Math Pentathlon, Science Fair, History Club, Band, Choir, Theater... To name a few.
Conferences once a semester? We have an entire week where we not only teach, but our hours are 8-8 , and sometimes longer each semester. Probably have an IEP type of conference every two weeks or so, and those can last hours. In addition to whenever a parent or teacher requests a meeting, and discipline conferences also. There are many different types of teachers and different expectations in each district. Sounds like your wife is in an ideal situation, but don't take that for the norm.

 

[IU-Curmudgeon]

Pence needs to be fired and so does any legislator that voted religion over our Constitution.

You have broken your oath to defend our Constitution against all due to your own stupidity: "You're fired!" Our Constitution trumps your book of myths, tales and legends.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Pence needs to be fired and so does any legislator that voted religion over our Constitution.

You have broken your oath to defend our Constitution against all due to your own stupidity: "You're fired!" Our Constitution trumps your book of myths, tales and legends.

Pretty much sums it up for me.

 

[mike41703]

Your wife and maybe her whole school then is certainly different than ours. We get 6 weeks for the summer. We have multiple conferences and workshops , some required to attend and some mandatory. Most teachers I know spend several days after school is out organizing and cleaning. Most teachers I know spend several days, up to a week, working in the room before school starts. In elementary, some part of the curriculum changes every year, so there is time spent becoming familiar with that. Not sure, ever in my life, have I heard of a teacher bored in the summer.
After school activities are called coaches? You certainly have a limited perspective. After school activities include tutoring, student council, detention, Boys to Men, Girls Club, Welcome Committe, Debate Club, Math Pentathlon, Science Fair, History Club, Band, Choir, Theater... To name a few.
Conferences once a semester? We have an entire week where we not only teach, but our hours are 8-8 , and sometimes longer each semester. Probably have an IEP type of conference every two weeks or so, and those can last hours. In addition to whenever a parent or teacher requests a meeting, and discipline conferences also. There are many different types of teachers and different expectations in each district. Sounds like your wife is in an ideal situation, but don't take that for the norm.

6 weeks? Yikes, I believe my wife had close to 10. Now that you mention it, she did have one day during the summer where she had a workshop all day long. But, she got paid extra for it. That being said, it wasn't enough which goes back to my original complaint that teachers don't get compensated enough money.

Some teachers work like you claim they do, but some are more efficient at it than others I guess.

The after school stuff I believe is mostly voluntary; again, depending on where you work. My wife used to coach(by choice) but after having kids she is home right after work every day. My mom taught for 42 years and aside from having detention duty(30 min or so from time to time) she was also home same time every day.

Bottom line, you are more qualified to bitch about the profession than me. And I really do want to make it clear that I support our public educators and would like to see things change for the better for them. Sorry if I offended you. I'm not trying to downplay your job.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

All this about how demanding or non-demanding teaching is is all a matter of perspective. I've had an assignment in the Navy in which I literally worked 7 days a week (usually only a few hours on Sunday, but a minimium of 12 hours a day Monday thru Saturday) for an entire year with a total of two weeks off. That was hard work. I enjoyed it and that assignment in my 5th year and on my second ship is when I decided to make the Navy a career. While on ships my hours while in port were about 60 hours a week and I was always on call. I had more than a few occasions that I went in on Saturdays and Sundays or late nights during the week. At sea, we all worked long days and odd hours since the ship was going 24/7. As a non-watchstander I got up at 0530 and generally went to bed around 2300 (11PM) and then got up around 0200 just to take a walk around the ship for 45 minutes or so to see how the watchstanders were doing in the wee hours. If we had an exercise going on or a tricky transit, I'd be on the bridge or in Combat no matter what time of the day or night it was. I was up there for every transit in and out of port, everytime we went alongside a ship for fuel and/or stores, gun shoots, missle shoots, etc. Before my last two ships as XO, in my first four ships, I was a watchstander and the hours were the same in terms of quantity but more irregular as I stood watches as well. Someone has to be on watch 24 hours a day and our watches generally vary from day to day - midwatch one day, watch in the middle of the day the next, etc. Hard work. Loved it. My easiest assignment in terms of hours and amount of stress (not counting a couple stints as a student at the Naval Postgraduate School and War College to get more edjumacated) was my three years as an Associate Professor of Naval Science at OSU and XO of the OSU NROTC unit. I taught at least one class every quarter (usually 3 times a week, two times a day) in addition to running the organization, supervising subordinates, observing other classes, teaching ship driving, etc.. Sure I worked at home preparing for classes, grading papers, etc., but it was actually like a vacation all the time from my perspective. Summer was relatively light but I was involved in the Midshipment summer cruises in San Diego so I was away for that for five weeks two summers. Loved that teaching assignment. Very low stress and moderate hours. My last stint as an Instructor (eventually Professor) at a Defense Institute was about the same in terms of low stress and hours, plus I got the enjoyment (not kidding actually) of going to Afghanistan and Iraq to teach for about a month each - also some other great places like Hawaiii, Stuttgart Germany and Huntsville, Alabama to mention a few. Teaching onsites meant teaching all day basically, every day. When not travelling we would teach every day some weeks and not at all some weeks but developing curriculum, preparing to teach and other things kept us busy. I did that assignment just after coming off my last ship where I'd been for two years. Again, it was sort of like a vacation all the time in comparison - 40 to 50 hours a week generally. Teaching is a great and valuable profession. I enjoy it tremendously. However, it's all a matter of perspective as to how demanding and stressful it is. From my perspective it's not particularly demanding or stressful, but I have very different experiences than most teachers. I can understand that it would seem very demanding and stressful to some. Everyone is different and everyone has different experiences. All that being said,, I've never whined about the career I chose. I loved it and working almost literally 24/7 during several assignments has given me a great perspective on life. I know it's possible to work very hard and long and still have a lot of fun and it made me truly appreciate it when I don't have to spend so many hours at work. It's a great feeling to feel like I'm almost on vacation despite putting in the hours I do. I do have to say it doesn't gain much sympathy from me when teachers whine about their career choice and how hard their work is (though I know it has to be very hard at times working with teenagers - I had one of those ). Even the worse case scenarios described here sound pretty darn tame to me. However, we need to pay enough to attract good teachers and we need to be able to reward good ones to keep them and to get rid of bad ones and replace them with good ones.

Now that I'm a civilian I joke that I'm retired from the military and work part time - 40 to 50 hours a week. It's true to me. The military and former military always laugh because they know it's basically true.