Bill Self is dumber than we thought

[fpeaugh]

Hold on here..in your debate that Kentucky is the model program to emulate you dismissed me saying they have just one championship from their 8 billion one and done lottery picks with 'they've been to the final four a lot which is what counts'.

Now in this rebuttal you pull out the 'yeah but how many have won?'.

Oh and a those championships had maybe 3 or 4 one and done players.

Plus now we know their market value is $150k, plus cars (hello Mr Preston) plus housing plus a job and in return you get very little actual championship success and a hell of a lot of headache for the stars that you crave so much.

The reason for the big ten drought is not from having a lack of talent. We've gotten there by more teams than anyone. You're one and dones aren't winning championships.

The best experienced players are winning championships.

No...Final Fours definitely tell the story...just didn’t want to look up all that data.

No Big Ten team has really competed for championships regularly since 2000 besides MSU. You have UM with a lucky run a couple years, OSU had a great 5-8 years, Wisky had a couple years, but the rest of the conference has been horrible. Completely a non factor for the most part on a national stage. A better conference would help all members.

 

[TommyCracker]

No...Final Fours definitely tell the story...just didn’t want to look up all that data.

No Big Ten team has really competed for championships regularly since 2000 besides MSU. You have UM with a lucky run a couple years, OSU had a great 5-8 years, Wisky had a couple years, but the rest of the conference has been horrible. Completely a non factor for the most part on a national stage. A better conference would help all members.

Illinois damn near went undefeated.

Michigan has been to two title games in 6 years.

We've had multiple 1 and 2 seeds over the years. This past year MSU and Purdouche were top 5 teams pretty much all year...and Michigan ended up winning the BTT and getting to the title game.

Not Duke.
Not Kentucky
Not Kansas

Since MSU won it...Indiana, Ohio State, Illinois, Michigan and Wisconsin have all gone to the title game.

You could even throw Maryland in there for fun.

You originally said that the conference isn't paying for enough one and done players and therefore is basically a mid major.

You were wrong regardless how many times you revise your statement.

What other conference can boast six different members playing for the national title? The ACC has Duke, UNC, Louisville and Syracuse. The SEC has Florida, UK and ??? (South Carolina made the final four two years ago).

Big 12 has Kansas.

Pac 12 has UCLA and Arizona

Big East has UConn, Butler and Villanova.

Who has had six? Definitely no mid majors. Lol

Wasn't Jaren Jackson a top 5ish recruit just last year. McDummy was the #1 going into his senior year.

Doesn't matter...five star freshman very rarely have tournament success. Which is the larger picture point for all you stargazers.

 

[Boilermaker03]

Illinois damn near went undefeated.

Michigan has been to two title games in 6 years.

We've had multiple 1 and 2 seeds over the years. This past year MSU and Purdouche were top 5 teams pretty much all year...and Michigan ended up winning the BTT and getting to the title game.

Not Duke.
Not Kentucky
Not Kansas

Since MSU won it...Indiana, Ohio State, Illinois, Michigan and Wisconsin have all gone to the title game.

You could even throw Maryland in there for fun.

You originally said that the conference isn't paying for enough one and done players and therefore is basically a mid major.

You were wrong regardless how many times you revise your statement.

What other conference can boast six different members playing for the national title? The ACC has Duke, UNC, Louisville and Syracuse. The SEC has Florida, UK and ??? (South Carolina made the final four two years ago).

Big 12 has Kansas.

Pac 12 has UCLA and Arizona

Big East has UConn, Butler and Villanova.

Who has had six? Definitely no mid majors. Lol

Wasn't Jaren Jackson a top 5ish recruit just last year. McDummy was the #1 going into his senior year.

Doesn't matter...five star freshman very rarely have tournament success. Which is the larger picture point for all you stargazers.

I agree with all of this. Except for the Purdouche part

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

Illinois damn near went undefeated.

Michigan has been to two title games in 6 years.

We've had multiple 1 and 2 seeds over the years. This past year MSU and Purdouche were top 5 teams pretty much all year...and Michigan ended up winning the BTT and getting to the title game.

Not Duke.
Not Kentucky
Not Kansas

Since MSU won it...Indiana, Ohio State, Illinois, Michigan and Wisconsin have all gone to the title game.

You could even throw Maryland in there for fun.

You originally said that the conference isn't paying for enough one and done players and therefore is basically a mid major.

You were wrong regardless how many times you revise your statement.

What other conference can boast six different members playing for the national title? The ACC has Duke, UNC, Louisville and Syracuse. The SEC has Florida, UK and ??? (South Carolina made the final four two years ago).

Big 12 has Kansas.

Pac 12 has UCLA and Arizona

Big East has UConn, Butler and Villanova.

Who has had six? Definitely no mid majors. Lol

Wasn't Jaren Jackson a top 5ish recruit just last year. McDummy was the #1 going into his senior year.

Doesn't matter...five star freshman very rarely have tournament success. Which is the larger picture point for all you stargazers.

“Facts are stubborn things . . .”

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

I agree with all of this. Accept for the Purdouche part

It is, after all, an IU message board.

 

[TommyCracker]

I agree with all of this. Accept for the Purdouche part

Ha ha for this discussion it would have been nice if the Baby Boilers or your team last year would have made it to the final gamd...then we could have said 7 different programs (8 if you count Maryland) from the conference has played for the national championship in the new millennium.

Even without you pulling your weight () I can't see how anyone thinks the conference is a mid major.

AND...if the ACC/Big Ten challenge was weighted correctly (we've dropped the ball on that since they keep matching us up with Duke or UNC pretty much every year when Crean had us more at the Virginia Tech/NC State level) those numbers would be more balanced to reflect the conference power. Problem is, and I agree to his point, there hasn't been a bell cow other than maybe MSU and then a line of succession.

 

[minneman]

I agree with all of this. Accept for the Purdouche part

So you agree with the whole thing since you said "accept" instead "except."

 

[Boilermaker03]

So you agree with the whole thing since you said "accept" instead "except."

Yeah woops

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

Interesting exchange between Silvio De Souza’s guardian and his AAU coach where Tom Ostrom gets mentioned:

http://amp.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article220372245.html

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

Meanwhile De Sousa has his 1st game of the season a little more than two weeks from now and hasn't been declared ineligible. Kansas can't really play him can they?

 

[hondo314]

Interesting exchange between Silvio De Souza’s guardian and his AAU coach where Tom Ostrom gets mentioned:

http://amp.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article220372245.html

here's to us continuing to bit players in this greek tragedy

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

i'm certainly no expert in NCAA bylaws but i think we're confusing the different things the FBI and NCAA care about. the feds care about the money (see wire fraud) because that's the only way they can run with in this. the NCAA cares that KU sought 3rd party help to recruit. they have more than enough to hammer that home. plus all the press. all of college basketball is watching this. they can't ignore this or they might as well not exist. and other schools, or a group of schools, would likely compel a judge to tell the NCAA they no longer exist if they did fail to act on things like this.

this really isn't business as usual.

I don't think the NCAA has as much as you think. This trial was first a foremost about Gatto and Adidas, who will almost certainly be found guilty. Kansas and it's coaching staff are collateral damage, and the texts are still vague enough that KU has plausible deniability. At the same time, the texts were extremely stupid on Self and Townsend's part. Both things can be true.

KU had lawyers at the trial in anticipation of any blow back on them. I'm sure they're already crafting their defense, and will fight everything tooth and nail similar to UNC.

The NCAA ignoring it, and bringing the hammer down on Kansas and Self are opposite ends of the spectrum.

I think the most likely scenario is that De Sousa ends up being the fall man, and KU/ Self remain in tact.

I think it's pretty naive to expect NCAA sanctions against KU.

And yes, they are a cash cow, that matters, even though it shouldn't.

 

[hondo314]

I don't think the NCAA has as much as you think. This trial was first a foremost about Gatto and Adidas, who will almost certainly be found guilty. Kansas and it's coaching staff are collateral damage, and the texts are still vague enough that KU has plausible deniability. At the same time, the texts were extremely stupid on Self and Townsend's part. Both things can be true.

KU had lawyers at the trial in anticipation of any blow back on them. I'm sure they're already crafting their defense, and will fight everything tooth and nail similar to UNC.

The NCAA ignoring it, and bringing the hammer down on Kansas and Self are opposite ends of the spectrum.

I think the most likely scenario is that De Sousa ends up being the fall man, and KU/ Self remain in tact.

I think it's pretty naive to expect NCAA sanctions against KU.

And yes, they are a cash cow, that matters, even though it shouldn't.

vague enough? lol. more than enough to start an inquiry, which is certainly coming. best part is it will be a slow simmer. KU's going to have to do a lot of guessing in the meantime. that they sent a lawyer was a show of weakness rather than strength. they are not ahead of this. lol. they don't even know everything the feds have much less what the ncaa could ask about. long slow burn coming for UK-lite.

it makes us all feel cool to call the ncaa toothless hypocrites, myself included, but it's not like they don't have any bite. the ncaa did go after UNC but none of the academic fraud crossed into their territory. wouldn't surprise me if KU gives back last years final four. remember, they didn't have to know the kid was on the take. and ncaa doesn't have the same burden of proof.

i'm clearly rooting for a power shift in college basketball but even objective observers agree this is a problem for KU. guess we'll just have to enjoy the show and continue to hope IU's ineptitude over the last two decades is actually a blessing.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

guess we'll just have to enjoy the show and continue to hope IU's ineptitude over the last two decades is actually a blessing.

That there's one tarnished silver lining.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

vague enough? lol. more than enough to start an inquiry, which is certainly coming. best part is it will be a slow simmer. KU's going to have to do a lot of guessing in the meantime. that they sent a lawyer was a show of weakness rather than strength. they are not ahead of this. lol. they don't even know everything the feds have much less what the ncaa could ask about. long slow burn coming for UK-lite.

it makes us all feel cool to call the ncaa toothless hypocrites, myself included, but it's not like they don't have any bite. the ncaa did go after UNC but none of the academic fraud crossed into their territory. wouldn't surprise me if KU gives back last years final four. remember, they didn't have to know the kid was on the take. and ncaa doesn't have the same burden of proof.

i'm clearly rooting for a power shift in college basketball but even objective observers agree this is a problem for KU. guess we'll just have to enjoy the show and continue to hope IU's ineptitude over the last two decades is actually a blessing.

Yes the texts are vague enough. I'd love to see KU go down, but I dont think it will happen.

Maybe it's just me but I'd rather see the power shift come out of our own success and not the NCAA's hampering of others.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

they don't even know everything the feds have much less what the ncaa could ask about. long slow burn coming for UK-lite.

.

Are you suggesting the FBI held back KU related evidence that could convict Gatto, simply because....... well I don't know why. It's your hair brain theory.

 

[hondo314]

Are you suggesting the FBI held back KU related evidence that could convict Gatto, simply because....... well I don't know why. It's your hair brain theory.

no, i meant the judge didn't let all the texts and communication into the trial

self, like most coaches, likely has more than one lever he can pull to get recruits...i betcha he, some KU admins, and a bunch of lawyers have been sitting in rooms trying to figure out all the loose ends

hair brained? would you have guessed a year ago we'd be seeing trials like this? that dudes would get arrested for cheating at college basketball?