I'm not trying to change any minds. I want to make it clear to people with open minds, that these people (who are most over the top with their jeering, mocking and arrogant attitudes) have absolutely no idea what they are talking about whatsoever. They never have and never will.
A closer look at Archie Miller
- Thread starter Paterfamilias
- Start date
I'm not trying to change any minds. I want to make it clear to people with open minds, that these people (who are most over the top with their jeering, mocking and arrogant attitudes) have absolutely no idea what they are talking about whatsoever. They never have and never will.
First, I don't "hate" Alford. That's an assumption on YOUR part because I don't want him to coach at IU. That's it. This whole "no respect", "no loyalty", "hate former player" bull**** is a straw man argument create by people that want Alford to coach. He doesn't want Alford to coach IU he hates him and has no IU loyalty. I don't want I Thomas either.....guess I "hate" him too? lol
You are presenting your data to support your opinion. It's not big picture. Its a tiny little bit of data compared to Miller's entire career.
And my argument is weak to you because you don't like it. I presented facts to contradict your facts and you don't like it.
Sorry......can it be as simple as I just don't want Alford?
More fun facts on Alford, Crean, and Archie:
Over the last 6 years...
-Alford has the most wins of the 3
-The most tourney appearances of the 3
-Has finished the season ranked in the top 25 the most seasons
-He also managed to accomplish this while switching jobs, which usually leads to at least one bad season.
Alford is a much better coach than Crean. Alford's basketball performance at Iowa should have very little bearing on how good of a coach he is. He has since then coached at two separate schools and has shown at both stops he is a much better coach than when he was at Iowa, almost 10 years ago. People do improve at their jobs (The most famous example being Bill Belichick) and Alford has obviously shown that. To be clear, I would prefer Archie, because his ceiling is higher, but I am not sure Archie is a better coach than Steve Alford in 2017 and the most current numbers back up Alford.
Had Alford disclosed the Pierce matter to Dan Guerrero during the interview process, he wouldn't have been hired (rightly or wrongly). Part of the reason he's not well regarded by everyone there is because his quiet omission of that "episode" made him look evasive and somewhat dishonest. That's usually not a good attribute for the coach of a high profile program.
Don't want him all you want. The "hate" I was referring to was hate as a coach. I don't really think any one here is actually "in love" with Archie Miller either.
What problem do you have with comparing the work of two coaches at a mid-major stop over the exact same number of years?
How does any of Alford's work outside of those 6 seasons have any bearing on the the comparison as I presented it?
Would you agree that Alford got the UCLA job based on the UNM work? If Archie gets the IU job it will be based on his UD work. I just don't see the issue with comparing the two.
I think the problem is that the data doesn't present the picture that you thought it would.
Here's Gregg Marshall's first 6 years at Wichita St. using the same format used with Miller and Alford.
Gregg Marshall
119-71 (.6263) WSU's record the 6 years prior to G. Marshall
139-70 (.665) WSU's record in Marshall's first 6 seasons
Conference Record 66-40 (.6223)
Regular Season Champs 1
C-Tourn Rec (7-6)
C-Tourn Champs 0
NCAA Seeding (#9,#5)
NCAA Tourn Rec 4-2 (.667)
Final AP Top 25 Rankings- #18
Record vs Top 25 teams (8-8)
Archie Miller
130-72 (.6435) UD's overall record the 6 years prior to A. Miller
139-62 (.6915) UD's recorde so far under A. Miller
Conference Record 68-34 (.667)
Reg Season Champs 2
C-Tourn Rec (5-6)
C-Tourn Champs 0
NCAA Seeding (#7,#7,#11,#11)
NCAA Tourn Rec 5-3 (.625)
Final AP Top 25 Rankings- None
Record vs Top 25 teams (7-7)
Steve Alford
98-83 (.5414) UNM's overall record the 6 years prior to S. Alford
155-52 (.7487) UNM's overall record under S. Alford
Conference Record 68-26 (.723)
Reg Season Champs 4
C-Tourn Rec (8-4)
C-Tourn Champs 2
NCAA Seeding (#3,#5,#3)
NCAA Tourn Rec 2-3 (.400)
Final AP Top 25 Rankings- #8, #10, #21
Record vs Top 25 teams (15-6)
Here are Marshall's Off Eff rank-Def Eff rank (Turnover % rank) for his first 6 seasons at WSU
yr1- 176-139 (#243)
yr2- 173-118 (#264)
yr3- 79-65 (#182)
yr4- 32-50 (#110)
yr5- 10-26 (#40)
yr6- 34-20 (#140)
I really like Marshall, but my concern is that he's great at growing a program past the level of it's conference peers. Once he's done that his numbers are awesome, but it's against much less talented opposition, much like Few at Gonzaga. Can he do that in the Big Ten?
I think Marshall is probably a Home Run Hire too. Unlike you, I don't know everything for sure. I try to dig just a little deeper than my old tournament brackets. Many thought Shaka was a home-run too. UCLA fans were distraught that they didn't get him. Now they think they dodged a bullet.
I think both can coach, that isn't the problem. We've complained over and over about Crean not establishing relationships with Indiana kids. That is a big consideration IMO. Which coach can do that? No matter where these guys coach, it has to be the right fit for everyone. We see it all the time, a coach sucks at one school and thrives at another. We can't dismiss how important it is to keep most of the Indiana talent in state, preferably at IU, when we select our coach.
But doesn't winning also include the most important wins?
Alford 9-9 in NCAA tournament. 3 Sweet 16s, no Elite Eights, no Final Fours. Crean 11-9 in NCAA tournament. 3 Sweet 16s, 1 Final Four. And Alford has been a Division 1 head coach for four more years than Tom Crean.
I'm NOT defending Crean. I'm just saying that cherry-picking facts to support your argument doesn't help - especially when you leave out the most important records of the NCAA tournament.
reading the boards, you can't help but think most respondents haven't followed college bball very long. (probably haven't been alive very long either).
success at non major schools hasn't always translated to success at major schools.
only Matta had much success after leaving Butler.
we have no idea how Stevens would have done at a major school.
Zags were a huge success long before Few, but the guys who preceded Few and left for bigger schools didn't find the same success elsewhere. (and Few wisely took note of that).
every yr hot guys at smaller schools get gigs at bigger schools, and what percent duplicate their smaller school success at the bigger schools.
even Alford was a world beater and the hot thing before Iowa.
on the other hand, the Zags, Butler, Wisc, kept hiring people who most had never heard of, and the beat went on.
how hot an item was Izzo when he was hired. (and would he have taken off the same, had Mich not hit a rough patch at the time).
doesn't mean they all weren't/aren't great coaches, just that this process is more like a recipe, where you need the right ingredient for the right dish.
there is no algorithm you can just plug into a computer and learn who will work best at what school.
what you can do, is watch out for pitfalls in spite of success.
how well is the guy liked by those around him?
are their other red flags? (Sampson, Fred Wilson).
and if he is successful at IU, are we going to have to worry about keeping him if another prime college or pro gig comes along, is he always going to be milking you for more money and being mentioned in job rumors.
while we can't predict who will find the most success at IU, we can make a good guess at who will do well with alums/donors, who will sit well with Indiana HS coaches and players, and importantly, who sees IU as their destination gig, rather than just a great gig that will look good on the resume if other great gigs, pro or college, come along.
success at non major schools hasn't always translated to success at major schools.
only Matta had much success after leaving Butler.
we have no idea how Stevens would have done at a major school.
Zags were a huge success long before Few, but the guys who preceded Few and left for bigger schools didn't find the same success elsewhere. (and Few wisely took note of that).
every yr hot guys at smaller schools get gigs at bigger schools, and what percent duplicate their smaller school success at the bigger schools.
even Alford was a world beater and the hot thing before Iowa.
on the other hand, the Zags, Butler, Wisc, kept hiring people who most had never heard of, and the beat went on.
how hot an item was Izzo when he was hired. (and would he have taken off the same, had Mich not hit a rough patch at the time).
doesn't mean they all weren't/aren't great coaches, just that this process is more like a recipe, where you need the right ingredient for the right dish.
there is no algorithm you can just plug into a computer and learn who will work best at what school.
what you can do, is watch out for pitfalls in spite of success.
how well is the guy liked by those around him?
are their other red flags? (Sampson, Fred Wilson).
and if he is successful at IU, are we going to have to worry about keeping him if another prime college or pro gig comes along, is he always going to be milking you for more money and being mentioned in job rumors.
while we can't predict who will find the most success at IU, we can make a good guess at who will do well with alums/donors, who will sit well with Indiana HS coaches and players, and importantly, who sees IU as their destination gig, rather than just a great gig that will look good on the resume if other great gigs, pro or college, come along.
Bumping a very old post. Not to hold up Alford, because I'm pretty down on him as well, but I think there are some interesting responses for one thing. Also, the main impetus for the original post was that people tend to get too geeked up over an extra win or two in the Dance.
Alford's work at UNM was clearly stronger, but the Elite Eight run had people over-the-moon. I just hope if another hire is coming sooner than expected, we use more than old NCAA Tournament bracket sheets to turn our heads.
I still think that Archie will be a really good coach someday if we are extremely patient.
Alford's work at UNM was clearly stronger, but the Elite Eight run had people over-the-moon. I just hope if another hire is coming sooner than expected, we use more than old NCAA Tournament bracket sheets to turn our heads.
I still think that Archie will be a really good coach someday if we are extremely patient.
