64% of Americans claim to be Christian per recent polling.

[IUCrazy2]

So are you saying that conservatives want to control an outcome that they inherently have no control over? What is the role of faith?

I am saying that conservatives believe that just throwing money at someone isn't necessarily helpful charity, particularly if that leads to poor outcomes. Handing $30 to a guy you know is going to go and shoot in his veins isn't helpful charity. Getting him off the street, pushing him into a program, and helping to try and get him clean is.

We are also having this discussion with regards to the view of tax payments as a stand in for charity in the form of welfare which is basically the point Hickory was trying to make. "You conservative Christians aren't following Jesus because you don't help the poor the way I think you should."

 

[IUCrazy2]

Sure there is. There's also support for genocide, beating your children and taking a rebellious son to the town leaders and having him stoned to death.

The Ten Commandments proscribe adultery. They don't address homosexuality. To my knowledge, neither did Jesus.

Paul's letter to the Corinthians includes language that "fornicators, idolators, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites (watch out hetero couples who engage in oral and anal sex), thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers - - none of these will inherit the kingdom of God." The word "prostitute" speaks to sex for hire and promiscuity, not to loving and committed relationships. Some biblical scholars believe Paul was condemning pederasty when he referred to male prostitutes.

I'll close with this, from the successor to Peter - - "If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?"

Disagree and I am with Goat in that I don't think you have the verse correct. I disagree with him in trying to sparse out what was meant by the two words that Paul through together.

I am not a Catholic so I don't view the Pope as anything more than a man and this particular Pope has his issues, one of which I will lay out for you. You could parse out what he is saying and have it fall exactly in line with what I have already said. He's gay and searches for the Lord in good will then the judgment is to God. However, if that person were to come to the Pope and ask if having gay sex is a-okay with God, I think he would get the same answer I gave you.

"When I said it is a sin, I was simply referring to Catholic moral teaching, which says that every sexual act outside of marriage is a sin. Of course, one must also consider the circumstances, which may decrease or eliminate fault," he wrote.
https://www.usccb.org/news/2023/pope-clarifies-remarks-about-homosexuality-and-sin
"As you can see, I was repeating something in general. I should have said, 'It is a sin, as is any sexual act outside of marriage,'"

One of my largest issues with Pope Francis is that he prevaricates around controversial topics like this and it leads to confusion and misconception. How so with this? Well....

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/15/977415222/illicit-for-catholic-church-to-bless-same-sex-marriages-vatican-says

The Vatican says you can't have a gay marriage. So the position I laid out above is exactly the position of the Pope/Vatican/Catholic Church. You can have gay desires but the church does not recognize gay marriages and any sex you have outside of marriage is a sin.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Disagree and I am with Goat in that I don't think you have the verse correct. I disagree with him in trying to sparse out what was meant by the two words that Paul through together.

I am not a Catholic so I don't view the Pope as anything more than a man and this particular Pope has his issues, one of which I will lay out for you. You could parse out what he is saying and have it fall exactly in line with what I have already said. He's gay and searches for the Lord in good will then the judgment is to God. However, if that person were to come to the Pope and ask if having gay sex is a-okay with God, I think he would get the same answer I gave you.

"When I said it is a sin, I was simply referring to Catholic moral teaching, which says that every sexual act outside of marriage is a sin. Of course, one must also consider the circumstances, which may decrease or eliminate fault," he wrote.
https://www.usccb.org/news/2023/pope-clarifies-remarks-about-homosexuality-and-sin
"As you can see, I was repeating something in general. I should have said, 'It is a sin, as is any sexual act outside of marriage,'"

One of my largest issues with Pope Francis is that he prevaricates around controversial topics like this and it leads to confusion and misconception. How so with this? Well....

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/15/977415222/illicit-for-catholic-church-to-bless-same-sex-marriages-vatican-says

The Vatican says you can't have a gay marriage. So the position I laid out above is exactly the position of the Pope/Vatican/Catholic Church. You can have gay desires but the church does not recognize gay marriages and any sex you have outside of marriage is a sin.

To be fair to the other side, misrepresenting the meaning of Greek words in the NT isn't an affliction only suffered by liberals. The KJV is rife with bad translations, and conservatives rest on a number of them.

 

[IUCrazy2]

To be fair to the other side, misrepresenting the meaning of Greek words in the NT isn't an affliction only suffered by liberals. The KJV is rife with bad translations, and conservatives rest on a number of them.

When I get into arguments of what the definition of "is" is on these particular items, I usually try and get as many translations as possible.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

When I get into arguments of what the definition of "is" is on these particular items, I usually try and get as many translations as possible.

In the age of the Internet, we have interlinear Bibles readily available.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

In the age of the Internet, we have interlinear Bibles readily available.

Do Christians reading a particular version of a Bible not think the translator was inspired by God in the same way the original writers were? Do many admit of a possibility of error here?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Do Christians reading a particular version of a Bible not think the translator was inspired by God in the same way the original writers were? Do many admit of a possibility of error here?

I don't know about the posters here, but there are a lot of protestants who believe God inspired the KJV.

 

[TommyCracker]

Loved this!

View embedded media

Warning, boring personal story ahead:

I grew up in Bedford and my family went to church every Sunday (not also Wednesday, or Saturday but we did on Sunday) and it just never connected with me. The stories didn't make logical sense especially to how my world was at the time....and that always bothered me.

Anyway I started watching Cosmos and was immediately connecting to it, the theories, the insignificance of us compared to the universe, etc. That made sense to a ten year old but most of all he was humble and would point out this is what the consensus scientific community believes at the time and it's constantly evolving, asking questions, disproving old theories with new information, etc.

Again totally changed my personal paradigm.

The second thing was literally the first Star Trek movie (both were around 1980 so I was 10/11 years old) whereas the basic concept was a mechanical super being was heading straight for earth to reconnect with its creator (us) but it couldn't come to grips that the creator was a completely different being than it (as it was mechanical and we are organic carbon) and was going to destroy all the humans because they obviously were enemies that killed his creator.

Basically it was talking about the lack of humility (and in turn our lack of humility as an organism because God can only be seen in our own image).

Again, massive brain explosion.

Us as an organism have always put us at the center of the universe with great consequence and deep meaning (example: There's an afterlife ecosystem for us but not for the cat because we've special. When I dream I am tapping into a clairvoyant realm....when my dog dreams he's just making noises because we are special. In a previous life I was a great person of history, not a serf that got his brains beaten in by a lord and died in a mound of horseshit because I am special).

In comparison to Segan and frikken Star Trek, the church seemed like teaching nonsense and really pushed the great arrogance, which turned me off even more.

To this day, I don't believe any human has ever talked to God....much less was able to take notes and pass on 'God's words'.

Thats nonsense told for social validation.

I get the moral teachings of the church and kind of get the social value (I believe we need three or more social places...home, work, the pub, the church, the course).

I also respect the hell out of a church helping out it's community with kindness.

Giving the church any kind of power or again, validation (what does the church think? I don't care what the church thinks any more than what Comic Con thinks) is not nor has it ever been a thing with me.

Thanks for listening. Lol

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

I agree. I avoid using the word “Christian” in certain contexts also. My reluctance stems from notions of bigotry and intolerance that the left imputes to almost all Christians.

My posts in this thread are not about me. They are about you.

If your posts are not about you, as you say, you should probably avoid using that first person pronoun.

Your reluctance is an "I"(you) problem.

 

[VanPastorMan]

Membership in organized religion is down, church attendance is down, enrollment in religious education is down. While a local church here and there may be thriving, it's clear that Americans' involvement in organized religion has plummeted from the peak decades of the '50s, '60s and '70s. While this trend is across a variety of faiths, it's most apparent in Christianity, probably because there were many more Christians (in the US) to begin with.

I think the waning influence of organized religion is unfortunate. A good church (or synagogue or mosque) that is true to the core tenets of the faith provides an important message, promotes the development and/or refinement of a moral compass, and sets forth clear guidelines for purposeful, positive and impactful living - - lives that feature kindness, compassion and love. When kids don't hear this in church or Sunday school, it's incumbent on parents to step up and fill the void. Sadly, I think only a minority are up to the task.

At least with respect to Christianity, the messaging void is being filled by faux preachers, cable news opinion hosts, social media influencers and even politicians who, in many instances, promote a bastardized version of Christianity that has little to nothing to do with the message of Christ but rather advances some other agenda.

I have noticed that many people want to take the teachings of Christ and add or take away from them without really delving deep into the meaning of the teaching. Remember, when Jesus teaches something He teaches in context in a culture He lived in. So we have to do our due dilligence to find out what all of it was. I also when reading the teachings Jesus taught Himself do so with the understanding of who He was. He was God, the Son walking around in human flesh. I also think about His main objective which was the real reason He walked the Earth, it was to go to a Roman Cross and pay the eternal price for sins. In other words He took our punishment upon Himself so that we who deserve it can have our sin guilt removed. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
All of this in my view is the crux of Christianity. We can't turn it into just a club like the Lions Club etc. Christianity is a belief system wrapped in a person and His Work.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Yes, because you are a crank. An old crank. Thanks for proving my point.

I stand by my statement about conservatives TENDING to want to feel superior to the person they've provided charity to, and the statement that liberals TEND to value dignity and my statement that both have value.

And I'll add the paragraph you left off, to provide context to those who are reading through all this, but not necessarily carefully:

Each has its benefits. I think back to Russell Crowe in Cinderella Man and he got humiliated into accepting public assistance by his having to ask for private charity . . . and ended up waiting in line to give all of the public assistance back. He lost and then regained his dignity . . . that's a story we love.

Well, you still haven’t made much of an argument. In fact, having thought about your point, I think the stronger case is the reverse, liberals tend to stake out the moral high ground more than conservatives in many ways, including providing charity. In any event, I think a genuinely charitable person can equally be liberal or conservative and political outlook has nothing to do with why.

As for being a crank I have no idea wtf you are talking about. I’ll acknowledge that being old is liberating in that we are less tolerant of stupid.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I have noticed that many people want to take the teachings of Christ and add or take away from them without really delving deep into the meaning of the teaching. Remember, when Jesus teaches something He teaches in context in a culture He lived in. So we have to do our due dilligence to find out what all of it was. I also when reading the teachings Jesus taught Himself do so with the understanding of who He was. He was God, the Son walking around in human flesh. I also think about His main objective which was the real reason He walked the Earth, it was to go to a Roman Cross and pay the eternal price for sins. In other words He took our punishment upon Himself so that we who deserve it can have our sin guilt removed. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
All of this in my view is the crux of Christianity. We can't turn it into just a club like the Lions Club etc. Christianity is a belief system wrapped in a person and His Work.

Good post. Like when I play in amateur soccer leagues. The quality difference is marked

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Good post. Like when I play in amateur soccer leagues. The quality difference is marked

I notice the same thing when I‘m on this board.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Good post. Like when I play in amateur soccer leagues. The quality difference is marked

As twenty would so succinctly say, “Dude…”

 

[Bowlmania]

All of this in my view is the crux of Christianity. We can't turn it into just a club like the Lions Club etc. Christianity is a belief system wrapped in a person and His Work.

Nor should Jesus be co-opted as a political mascot with a suggestion that "He's ours, not yours."

 

[VanPastorMan]

Nor should Jesus be co-opted as a political mascot with a suggestion that "He's ours, not yours."

Both parties do that. You have to take each individual political item and then try to figure out what the Lord would say about it. For instance Psalm 139 absolutely teaches God is a Pro Life God. So if you are for abortion then the Bible would say the Lord would be against that item or subject.

 

[mcmurtry66]

As twenty would so succinctly say, “Dude…”

We should organize a watercooler field trip to that church

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Both parties do that. You have to take each individual political item and then try to figure out what the Lord would say about it. For instance Psalm 139 absolutely teaches God is a Pro Life God. So if you are for abortion then the Bible would say the Lord would be against that item or subject.

I just read it. I don't see it saying anything about abortion.

And it gets ugly later (numbering is off from cut and paste):

1. Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
2. For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
3. Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
4. I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
5. Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
6. And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

That part is in direct conflict with the New Testament:

Bible Verses about Loving your Enemies — Bible Lyfe

When we look at Jesus, we see an example of unconditional love. We can follow his example by loving others, even our enemies. These Bible verses show us how.

www.biblelyfe.com

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

We should organize a watercooler field trip to that church

or

 

[TMFT]

For instance Psalm 139 absolutely teaches God is a Pro Life God.

A bunch of first born Egyptian kids might disagree.

 

[Indianaftw]

A bunch of first born Egyptian kids might disagree.

Play stupid games...

 

[TMFT]

Play stupid games...

As a general rule, and speaking from experience, most toddlers play stupid games. I usually just try to re-direct them though. Death penalty seems a little harsh.

 

[Bowlmania]

Both parties do that. You have to take each individual political item and then try to figure out what the Lord would say about it. For instance Psalm 139 absolutely teaches God is a Pro Life God. So if you are for abortion then the Bible would say the Lord would be against that item or subject.

"Both parties?" You know that's bullshit. Aren't Dems the party of heathens/non-believers?

And why are you pivoting to abortion? I haven't mentioned that in my posts and it's irrelevant to this conversation.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Play stupid games...

What game?

 

[IU_Hickory]

Both parties do that. You have to take each individual political item and then try to figure out what the Lord would say about it. For instance Psalm 139 absolutely teaches God is a Pro Life God. So if you are for abortion then the Bible would say the Lord would be against that item or subject.

Both parties don't do that, at least not at the same level. And I haven't heard a single dem say we should get rid of the separation of Church and state.

 

[Indianaftw]

What game?

Games with God...Moses warned how many times? 10 before he killed the firstborn. And the plagues were horrible what was dude thinking?

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Games with God...Moses warned how many times? 10 before he killed the firstborn. And the plagues were horrible what was dude thinking?

Well, actually, God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, so he wasn't going to let them go. (Exodus 11:9-10)

 

[Indianaftw]

Well, actually, God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, so he wasn't going to let them go. (Exodus 11:10)

I'm fully aware bulk. However, he was made an example of. Therefore...play stupid games

 

[Indianaftw]

I'm fully aware bulk. However, he was made an example of. Therefore...play stupid games

Moral of the story...Don't mess with the living God your creator!

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Moral of the story...Don't mess with the living God your creator!

But your original point was that the Egyptian first born played "stupid games", which illustrates, once again, how you have missed the point of the scriptures.

 

[Indianaftw]

But your original point was that the Egyptian first born played "stupid games", which illustrates, once again, how you have missed the point of the scriptures.

Hahahahaha. If you say so bulk. (Insert Facepalm). My original point was directed at Pharoah...

Troll score 5...Do Better

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Hahahahaha. If you say so bulk. (Insert Facepalm).

Troll score 5...Do Better

Not trolling...trying to educate. I guess Jesus was right about pearls and swine.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I'm fully aware bulk. However, he was made an example of. Therefore...play stupid games

It is justice that a peasant living in Egypt has his son taken from him because the unelected despot messed with God? That the child, who didn't choose to be born anywhere or to these people or under this rule, should die and indeed never have a chance of going to eternal happiness but instead spend a life in eternal damnation?

That's fvcked up.

 

[Indianaftw]

Not trolling...trying to educate. I guess Jesus was right about pearls and swine.

Go read above I edited. My point, play stupid games, was pointed at Pharoah not the firstborn. I appreciate your education attempt.

 

[TMFT]

Hahahahaha. If you say so bulk. (Insert Facepalm). My original point was directed at Pharoah...

Troll score 5...Do Better

So what you're saying is that OT God was pro-life unless he was trying to teach someone else a lesson? It's like my grandpa used to say, can't make an omelet without sending the angel of death after a bunch of innocents.

 

[Indianaftw]

It is justice that a peasant living in Egypt has his son taken from him because the unelected despot messed with God? That the child, who didn't choose to be born anywhere or to these people or under this rule, should die and indeed never have a chance of going to eternal happiness but instead spend a life in eternal damnation?

That's fvcked up.

Tell God...Many nations saw the nation of Israel and how blessed they were and respected them because they knew they were with God. Pharoah and his people didn't. Ohhh well.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Go read above I edited. My point, play stupid games, was pointed at Pharoah not the firstborn. I appreciate your education attempt.

So, God was not pro-Life in that situation.

God's plan was not to get Pharaoh. He used Pharaoh to show the rest of the world (that area, at least), including the Hebrews, that he was God in an Old Testament fashion. The Hebrews had been slaves for centuries and no one was going to listen to an unnamed monotheistic entity leading a bunch of landless slaves without a show of might.
Even then, he still had to step in at Yam Suph (Sea of Reeds) to finally show Pharaoh, and for 40 years in the wilderness to kill off all Hebrews who were around to worship the Golden Calf.
I'm glad God changed strategies in the New Testament, though. Love > Fear.

 

[Indianaftw]

So what you're saying is that OT God was pro-life unless he was trying to teach someone else a lesson? It's like my grandpa used to say, can't make an omelet without sending the angel of death after a bunch of innocents.

OT God? He's the creator. Take it up with him. Hate all you want IDC. I was once like that and came to my senses and asked who am I to argue with God my creator? And when you read the old testament you learn his ways. He will smote generation after generation if you turn from his ways. His own people he warned and warned and warned that they would eat their children and they did. I really don't wanna spend eternity in fire. IMO the Lord is pure, perfect, and truth. I can live with a Father like that. Not one of lies.

 

[Indianaftw]

So, God was not pro-Life in that situation.

God's plan was not to get Pharaoh. He used Pharaoh to show the rest of the world (that area, at least), including the Hebrews, that he was God in an Old Testament fashion. The Hebrews had been slaves for centuries and no one was going to listen to an unnamed monotheistic entity leading a bunch of landless slaves without a show of might.
Even then, he still had to step in at Yam Suph (Sea of Reeds) to finally show Pharaoh, and for 40 years in the wilderness to kill off all Hebrews who were around to worship the Golden Calf.
I'm glad God changed strategies in the New Testament, though. Love > Fear.

There is still a hell, and lake of fire Bulk. And Christ spoke about hell many times you want me to share? Don't leave it out. Just because we live in Grace and Peace does not mean continue in sin. Paul describes his struggle with flesh in Romans 7. God uses many examples of the old testament in 2 Peter.

 

[Indianaftw]

So, God was not pro-Life in that situation.

God's plan was not to get Pharaoh. He used Pharaoh to show the rest of the world (that area, at least), including the Hebrews, that he was God in an Old Testament fashion. The Hebrews had been slaves for centuries and no one was going to listen to an unnamed monotheistic entity leading a bunch of landless slaves without a show of might.
Even then, he still had to step in at Yam Suph (Sea of Reeds) to finally show Pharaoh, and for 40 years in the wilderness to kill off all Hebrews who were around to worship the Golden Calf.
I'm glad God changed strategies in the New Testament, though. Love > Fear.

Also the thread topic I stayed clear of until bowl drug me into it misquoting my sig for old testament scripture.