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2/3+ of Americans favor 2% wealth tax!

Wow.

Stollcpa is responding to ivegotwinners' post using ivegotwinners' minimalist style of paragraph structure, along with E.E. Cummings' preservation-of-endangered-capital-letters method of capitalization.

We need the Shakespeare/Ted Kacynski/ plagiarism algorithm to see if they're the same person or not.

Responding to him in any style is a waste of time. He hasn’t grasped the point I was trying to make. I was trying to point out is it’s not cut and dried how Wealth would be calculated and there are many valuation methods to lower the value of LLCs. I couldn’t get him to understand I can take an LLC with pure cash and get it valued at 60-65% of the actual cash value.
 
Simple answer. The investor is not accumulating social security credits. That said, the investor might pay self-employment tax. I don’t know. Maybe Stoll can weigh in here.

Why do they not gain credits? The idea was to make sure people had income in their golden years. Is it impossible that wealthy investors could go broke? If it is impossible, that illustrates a deeper problem.
 
Because investment is risky and work isn't. Because investment produces lots of new jobs and work doesn't.

That is the claim, but if investment is risky investors should have social security to fall back on. And of course no one invests simply to create jobs, it isn't altruism driving investors. Some invest in dirivatives that really generate no jobs.

And work does create work, I work putting a server up which gives other employees a chance to do their jobs.
 
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Why do they not gain credits? The idea was to make sure people had income in their golden years. Is it impossible that wealthy investors could go broke? If it is impossible, that illustrates a deeper problem.

I don’t know for sure if those who earn a living solely off of investments pay self employment taxes. My best guess is they don’t. Why? That’s the law. I do know those who work as a sole proprietor pay self employment tax and gain credits. But that isn’t investment income.
 
I don’t know for sure if those who earn a living solely off of investments pay self employment taxes. My best guess is they don’t. Why? That’s the law. I do know those who work as a sole proprietor pay self employment tax and gain credits. But that isn’t investment income.

No self employment tax on investment income.

Whether self employed or working as an employee you pay social security and Medicare taxes while drawing social security benefits. The tax you pay can positively affect your benefits. The additional tax paid has very little affect on future benefits.

Personally I believe social security benefits should be means tested based on income earned in retirement.
 
No self employment tax on investment income.

Whether self employed or working as an employee you pay social security and Medicare taxes while drawing social security benefits. The tax you pay can positively affect your benefits. The additional tax paid has very little affect on future benefits.

Personally I believe social security benefits should be means tested based on income earned in retirement.
Irony. Subtle but it's there . . . .

Do you see it?
 
there are many reasons for declining birth rates. The point is that parents have responsibilities non-parents don’t have. While it’s not a 1:1 relationship, I think the study shows that parental responsibilities has a spill-over effect. That spill over is helpful in many different areas, including stability, addictions, and jobs.

CoH, I completely agree with your observation that parents have responsibilities which non parents don't have.

This is precisely why I mentioned mothers entering the workforce. By doing so, their responsibilities become divided between family and jobs.
 
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No self employment tax on investment income.

Whether self employed or working as an employee you pay social security and Medicare taxes while drawing social security benefits. The tax you pay can positively affect your benefits. The additional tax paid has very little affect on future benefits.

Personally I believe social security benefits should be means tested based on income earned in retirement.
That's coming and it will definitely go over like a lead balloon to people who have paid into the program. Which ever party proposes this is asking for political suicide although I tend to agree with you.

Edit: I'm addressing the ss benefits.
 
CoH, I completely agree with your observation that parents have responsibilities which non parents don't have.

This is precisely why I mentioned mothers entering the workforce. By doing so, their responsibilities become divided between family and jobs.

Of course responsibilities would be divided. But tat isn’t the point. I think the study shows that, in general, parents are more responsible employees than non-parents.
 
oh my. Do you really believe wealth is a zero sum game? If you believe that, you are wasting my time.

it absolutely is in the parameters i used it, ie how the revenues of a business used to pay those working at the business, are distributed between the employees and ownership.

in said distribution, it's absolutely a zero sum game, and every dollar paid the CEO, or ownership/investors/share holders, is a dollar not paid to anyone else in the organization.

every $10 million paid to a CEO or ownership, is $10 million not paid to other employees, suppliers, contractors.

you're either the most ignorant person ever on the subject, or not being truthful.

from all your past conversations, i'll go with you're being dishonest. as usual.

obviously you and other propaganda warriors believe dishonesty is a fair and effective tool to be used at will. (i know, it's not PC to call dishonesty dishonesty.)

guess i'm not PC.
 
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Simple answer. The investor is not accumulating social security credits. That said, the investor might pay self-employment tax. I don’t know. Maybe Stoll can weigh in here.

not the simple answer, the wrong answer.

correct answer, it's not fair that investors pay a lower tax rate.

often the obvious answer is the correct one.

that is the case here.
 
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Responding to him in any style is a waste of time. He hasn’t grasped the point I was trying to make. I was trying to point out is it’s not cut and dried how Wealth would be calculated and there are many valuation methods to lower the value of LLCs. I couldn’t get him to understand I can take an LLC with pure cash and get it valued at 60-65% of the actual cash value.

your point was invalid, as i pointed out.

any manipulation, or lying, or both, regarding one's wealth to be taxed can be countered in the rules defining what and how one's wealth is calculated, and how LLC holdings are to be calculated.

and in the penalties for falsifying, misrepresenting, or hiding assets.

people can cheat, or try to cheat, on any tax.

that doesn't ever stop the tax from being implemented.

the tougher the penalties for cheating, the less cheating will go on.

that said, govt can't audit every person on every tax.

but with a wealth tax affecting so relatively few, and with so much at stake on the few it will affect, it would be fiscally prudent to give a thorough audit of every wealth tax return, using auditors who know what they are doing.

maybe we could put the auditors on commission for every non or misdisclosed dollar they find, on top of their salary.

that on top of adequate penalties on non or misdisclosed assets, should do the trick.
 
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You sound like your want a wealth tax to remedy inequality. I don’t think we address the reasons for inequality by taking wealth from the rich and transferring it to the poor. The way out of this is to increase upward income and wealth mobility. Does it really matter if a hedge fund guy counts annual income in 8 figures if low income people have the means to move to the high 5 figures? We have too many impediments to upward mobility. Not taxing the rich more isn’t one of those.

I read about a study recently showing that people who have kids tend to do better in all phases of life (less addictions, more stable families, better income) than those who don’t. It follows from that study that declining birth rates has more problems than we think. Income and wealth inequality is indeed a problem. But most of the causes of that problem is found in our social conditions, not in our tax policy.

I wonder if your study is self-fulfilling. Think of it this way, people with deep psychological problems, people with serious addictions, people totally unable to hold down a job, may all be people less willing to have kids. This "more responsible" is not a cause and effect but a self selection.

Someone with a deep psychosis will probably not be cured by having children.
 
I have no issue with means testing, so yes, people can receive benefits based on investment income. Mind you i only have them paying 1/2, only the employee share, so they will not get paid out the full amount.

My real point is to not give investors lower effective taxes than workers. Investors are not superior humans, we are equal.
The SS tax is already tilted way in the favor of the lower income people and you want to tilt it more? Have you ever figured (to the best of your ability because some taxes are hard to determine) how much of your income goes to taxes? I'll bet you would be surprised if you could figure to the dollar what percentage is paid as taxes.
 
The SS tax is already tilted way in the favor of the lower income people and you want to tilt it more? Have you ever figured (to the best of your ability because some taxes are hard to determine) how much of your income goes to taxes? I'll bet you would be surprised if you could figure to the dollar what percentage is paid as taxes.

How is it tilted in favor of the poor. Someone making $30,000 pays the 7% on all $30,000. LeBron pays it on his first $130,000 and that is it. His effective rate is probably well under 1%.

One argument many conservatives make about having so many pay no tax is they have no skin in the game. Guess what, the investor class has no skin in the social security game.
 
your point was invalid, as i pointed out.

any manipulation, or lying, or both, regarding one's wealth to be taxed can be countered in the rules defining what and how one's wealth is calculated, and how LLC holdings are to be calculated.

and in the penalties for falsifying, misrepresenting, or hiding assets.

people can cheat, or try to cheat, on any tax.

that doesn't ever stop the tax from being implemented.

the tougher the penalties for cheating, the less cheating will go on.

that said, govt can't audit every person on every tax.

but with a wealth tax affecting so relatively few, and with so much at stake on the few it will affect, it would be fiscally prudent to give a thorough audit of every wealth tax return, using auditors who know what they are doing.

maybe we could put the auditors on commission for every non or misdisclosed dollar they find, on top of their salary.

that on top of adequate penalties on non or misdisclosed assets, should do the trick.

you still don’t get it

there are legal valuation methods to discount the value of entities

they’re legally allowed by the irs now

and none of it matters

its not happening
 
How is it tilted in favor of the poor. Someone making $30,000 pays the 7% on all $30,000. LeBron pays it on his first $130,000 and that is it. His effective rate is probably well under 1%.

One argument many conservatives make about having so many pay no tax is they have no skin in the game. Guess what, the investor class has no skin in the social security game.
If they have no skin in the game they won’t get social security. That’s the way it was designed. Incidentally it was poorly designed because it is essentially a legal Ponzi scheme.

Also, the answer to your question is that most lower income people will receive much more in benefits than they paid into the system while most higher income people will receive a fraction in benefits compared to what they paid into the system. It was designed to benefit the poor more. I don’t have a problem with that, though if it had been designed better it would be more sustainable and better for everyone.
 
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The SS tax is already tilted way in the favor of the lower income people and you want to tilt it more? Have you ever figured (to the best of your ability because some taxes are hard to determine) how much of your income goes to taxes? I'll bet you would be surprised if you could figure to the dollar what percentage is paid as taxes.

Don’t forget the EIC which is intended to soften the blow of SS taxes for low earners.
 
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I wonder if your study is self-fulfilling. Think of it this way, people with deep psychological problems, people with serious addictions, people totally unable to hold down a job, may all be people less willing to have kids. This "more responsible" is not a cause and effect but a self selection.

Someone with a deep psychosis will probably not be cured by having children.

This isn’t my study. There are a number of questions I’d like to ask the author too. And I think you make more of it than I do. But the study rings true to me because that is my personal experience. Lawyers in private practice eat what they kill. There is no such thing as paid days off. No client ever paid me to not work. Having the responsibilities and pressures of a family tends to keep people focused on important things. I saw similar incentives in colleagues, clients and others. Parents are generally more responsible. I can’t answer you chicken/egg point.
 
Of course responsibilities would be divided. But tat isn’t the point. I think the study shows that, in general, parents are more responsible employees than non-parents.
Love a parent has for their families is the most common and easiest exploitation employers and investors - and others - use . . . indirectly, of course.

He-killed-them-with-their-love.-Thats-how-it-is-every-day-all-over-the-world.jpg


It might be worth a separate thread, but there's a pretty good philosophical/theological conversation to be had regarding whether that type of exploitation harms or develops people. I suspect the answer is both, depending on who the employee is, and the stage of their maturation . . . employers and investors prefer those who willingly undertake the yoke of being exploited in order to feed their families. But that only lasts so long before the worker starts thinking about what might have been . . . .

To me, the trick is being an investor and/or an employer without using that exploitation to motivate workers . . . .
 
What are you talking about? It's a highly regressive tax.

Your comment is just upside-down crazy.

It's not at all when you also account for the future benefits. It's a progressive system where those on the lower end get much more bang for their tax buck.
 
This isn’t my study. There are a number of questions I’d like to ask the author too. And I think you make more of it than I do. But the study rings true to me because that is my personal experience. Lawyers in private practice eat what they kill. There is no such thing as paid days off. No client ever paid me to not work. Having the responsibilities and pressures of a family tends to keep people focused on important things. I saw similar incentives in colleagues, clients and others. Parents are generally more responsible. I can’t answer you chicken/egg point.

CoH, I have a question about the unlinked study to which you keep referring. A study which you say shows that having children and both parents working leads to higher incomes.

Does having children make parents more responsible in the workplace, or do people who are more responsible have children?
 
you still don’t get it

there are legal valuation methods to discount the value of entities

they’re legally allowed by the irs now

and none of it matters

its not happening

and traveling says you can take two steps off the dribble, while players often get away with 3..

regardless, the rule still eliminates players getting away with taking 4 or more steps off the dribble.

and seepage control can be built into any rules and rates going in.

you can say 2+2=7 all day long, (which apparently is your only strategy), but that doesn't make it so.

by your argument, no tax is doable, thus no tax will never happen.

any legal wealth manipulation can be rendered moot in one second when the rules governing how wealth for the wealth tax are calculated.

and if someone gets away with only paying wealth tax on $200 mil when their real wealth is over $230 mil, that's still a lot of revenue now uncollected.

and again, anything one can come up with to hide or misrepresent wealth, can be countered when writing the rules and penalties.

when you come up with something that can't be countered with rules, penalties, and audits of every return, let me know.

so far you haven't.. every argument you have made assumes there are no rules, no penalties, no audits, no enforcement.
 
It's not at all when you also account for the future benefits. It's a progressive system where those on the lower end get much more bang for their tax buck.
Understood.

NPT was talking about the tax, not the overall system. The tax per se is highly regressive.
 
You have got to be kidding. If you truly believe that statement, you might want to enroll in a basic Econ class somewhere.
What he says is usually as nonsensical as his writing style. In addition to a basic Econ class he needs to take a basic writing class as well.
 
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What are you talking about? It's a highly regressive tax.

Your comment is just upside-down crazy.
I'm talking about as far as getting money out of it. In other words a person that makes $120,000/year and pays SS tax on that will not get twice as much SS benefits as a person who makes $60,000 a year.

I understand that it takes a larger percentage of the $60,000 person but he/she gets more bang for the dollars that he/she paid in.
 
I'm talking about as far as getting money out of it. In other words a person that makes $120,000/year and pays SS tax on that will not get twice as much SS benefits as a person who makes $60,000 a year.

I understand that it takes a larger percentage of the $60,000 person but he/she gets more bang for the dollars that he/she paid in.

The usual argument is that Social Security is a bad investment, if you believe that then isn't the person trading more of their current income for the future actually getting ripped off more.
 
The usual argument is that Social Security is a bad investment, if you believe that then isn't the person trading more of their current income for the future actually getting ripped off more.
No. He’s getting ripped off less because he’s getting a greater return on his “investment” than high earners. In fact, high earners will likely lose a lot on their while the lower earners will gain on theirs.
 
I have no issue with means testing, so yes, people can receive benefits based on investment income. Mind you i only have them paying 1/2, only the employee share, so they will not get paid out the full amount.

My real point is to not give investors lower effective taxes than workers. Investors are not superior humans, we are equal.
Here is a survey and discussion among top economists on the wealth tax. They are not fans pretty much across the board for reasons already discussed. Acemoglu is one of the economists surveyed and he gives a shout out to your point of capital gains being taxed similarly:
Daron Acemoglu at MIT suggested, “What would be most successful would be a combination of relatively high estate taxes combined with taxes on capital income.” Acemoglu also noted, in response to the first statement of the poll, regarding enforceability, “Taxing capital income at the same rate as labor income would be simpler, more effective, and much less difficult to implement.”

Robert Hall at Stanford said, “We should focus on a progressive consumption tax structured as a value-added tax,” while William Nordhaus of Yale proposed, “Start with enforcing the current laws. This would be [a] highly progressive move and should be at [the] top of [the] tax agenda, way at [the] top.”

Among those who disagreed with alternative approaches, Saez commented, “Estate and realized capital gains taxes come decades after wealth accumulation . . . wealth tax is a useful withholding tax backstop,” while Udry concluded: “Unless the changes in capital gains and inheritance taxes were radical, they can't match the time path of the wealth tax.”​
 
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Here is a survey and discussion among top economists on the wealth tax. They are not fans pretty much across the board for reasons already discussed. Acemoglu is one of the economists surveyed and he gives a shout out to your point of capital gains being taxed similarly:
Daron Acemoglu at MIT suggested, “What would be most successful would be a combination of relatively high estate taxes combined with taxes on capital income.” Acemoglu also noted, in response to the first statement of the poll, regarding enforceability, “Taxing capital income at the same rate as labor income would be simpler, more effective, and much less difficult to implement.”

Robert Hall at Stanford said, “We should focus on a progressive consumption tax structured as a value-added tax,” while William Nordhaus of Yale proposed, “Start with enforcing the current laws. This would be [a] highly progressive move and should be at [the] top of [the] tax agenda, way at [the] top.”

Among those who disagreed with alternative approaches, Saez commented, “Estate and realized capital gains taxes come decades after wealth accumulation . . . wealth tax is a useful withholding tax backstop,” while Udry concluded: “Unless the changes in capital gains and inheritance taxes were radical, they can't match the time path of the wealth tax.”​

economist often say what they are paid to say, and where their funding comes from often denotes what their stance on an issue is.

where they hope to get funding from in the future can too.

they are in a continual state of auditioning for the next gig. (which can be in addition to their day gig).

that said, this topic doesn't need an economist, it isn't rocket science.

estate taxes are a once in a lifetime thing, literally, so not going to solve much.

value added taxes are regressive.

cap gains tax increases help a lot, but still don't address massive held wealth, and you don't want them higher than income tax rates.

top end income tax rates need adjusted up, to very high rates for very high incomes, which can be averaged over several yrs to account for a freak high yr. (say you win the lottery, but otherwise are a bum before and after).

a wealth tax is needed to address massive accumulations, and is difficult to completely steer around.

as for redistribution whining.. when distribution is more even, any redistribution will be less needed.

when it's $10,000 for me, $10 for you, redistribution is needed to correct the original inequity.

as for the "you didn't build it" argument, never before has that argument been so true.

anything internet based, deriving from anything internet based, with any integral internet component, exists on a platform totally conceived, built, serviced, and paid for by others.. uses public spectrum, easements, right of ways, etc.

Amazon is a store in the worlds biggest mall, and pays zero rent.

nor do they pay for the roads used to deliver their goods, or the spectrum that allows buyers to communicate with them.

same with Facebook, Google, etc.

Microsoft, Apple, Intel, all of silicon valley, are indirectly based rent free in that mall as well.

the banks? them too.

Wall St? Wall St is now entirely virtual. so they too.

same with any business that depends on the internet.
 
economist often say what they are paid to say, and where their funding comes from often denotes what their stance on an issue is.

where they hope to get funding from in the future can too.

they are in a continual state of auditioning for the next gig. (which can be in addition to their day gig).

that said, this topic doesn't need an economist, it isn't rocket science.

estate taxes are a once in a lifetime thing, literally, so not going to solve much.

value added taxes are regressive.

cap gains tax increases help a lot, but still don't address massive held wealth, and you don't want them higher than income tax rates.

top end income tax rates need adjusted up, to very high rates for very high incomes, which can be averaged over several yrs to account for a freak high yr. (say you win the lottery, but otherwise are a bum before and after).

a wealth tax is needed to address massive accumulations, and is difficult to completely steer around.

as for redistribution whining.. when distribution is more even, any redistribution will be less needed.

when it's $10,000 for me, $10 for you, redistribution is needed to correct the original inequity.

as for the "you didn't build it" argument, never before has that argument been so true.

anything internet based, deriving from anything internet based, with any integral internet component, exists on a platform totally conceived, built, serviced, and paid for by others.. uses public spectrum, easements, right of ways, etc.

Amazon is a store in the worlds biggest mall, and pays zero rent.

nor do they pay for the roads used to deliver their goods, or the spectrum that allows buyers to communicate with them.

same with Facebook, Google, etc.

Microsoft, Apple, Intel, all of silicon valley, are indirectly based rent free in that mall as well.

the banks? them too.

Wall St? Wall St is now entirely virtual. so they too.

same with any business that depends on the internet.
Seriously. What?
 
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economist often say what they are paid to say, and where their funding comes from often denotes what their stance on an issue is.

where they hope to get funding from in the future can too.

they are in a continual state of auditioning for the next gig. (which can be in addition to their day gig).

that said, this topic doesn't need an economist, it isn't rocket science.

estate taxes are a once in a lifetime thing, literally, so not going to solve much.

value added taxes are regressive.

cap gains tax increases help a lot, but still don't address massive held wealth, and you don't want them higher than income tax rates.

top end income tax rates need adjusted up, to very high rates for very high incomes, which can be averaged over several yrs to account for a freak high yr. (say you win the lottery, but otherwise are a bum before and after).

a wealth tax is needed to address massive accumulations, and is difficult to completely steer around.

as for redistribution whining.. when distribution is more even, any redistribution will be less needed.

when it's $10,000 for me, $10 for you, redistribution is needed to correct the original inequity.

as for the "you didn't build it" argument, never before has that argument been so true.

anything internet based, deriving from anything internet based, with any integral internet component, exists on a platform totally conceived, built, serviced, and paid for by others.. uses public spectrum, easements, right of ways, etc.

Amazon is a store in the worlds biggest mall, and pays zero rent.

nor do they pay for the roads used to deliver their goods, or the spectrum that allows buyers to communicate with them.

same with Facebook, Google, etc.

Microsoft, Apple, Intel, all of silicon valley, are indirectly based rent free in that mall as well.

the banks? them too.

Wall St? Wall St is now entirely virtual. so they too.

same with any business that depends on the internet.


That's like 13 different topics..... and none make any sense. Anyone can write hyperbolic headlines, that's just emotional dribble.

Why not pick 1 of those and actually start a topic with some substance?
 
The usual argument is that Social Security is a bad investment, if you believe that then isn't the person trading more of their current income for the future actually getting ripped off more.
It's like this..... I found a calculator on the internet that tells you what a dollar invested in the S&P 500 would be worth today if it had been invested in 19XX or 20XX (insert the year for XX) so I took my wife's earning report (what she's paid into SS) and calculated how much each year's payments would be worth at the end of 2016 (as far as calculator calculated when I did it). When you summed all that up she would have had $992,000 and that's just her part (remember her employer had to match that).It's not hard to see that if she had gotten all the money that she and her employer had paid in she would have well over 2 million dollars today and even at the paltry 2% that CDs pay today she would get a lot more that she would get if she filed for SS. Using the old rule of thumb for investments where you can take out 4% the first year and then adjust it for in future years you can see that she would get $80,000 the first year if figured on 2 million and that is more than 3 times she would get today if she filed for SS so yes it is a bad investment for the average person.

I realize there's a type of insurance built into SS so the people that use that do come out way ahead but the average person today will never get even get the interest off what they put in.
 
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