‘Don’t Say Gay’ Bill - Florida
- Thread starter IUclover
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Often times I would use the trip home to bring up things that were troubling me, since anything I asked at home was promptly answered by the aunts. Once, I must have been 10 or 11, I asked father about a poem we had read at school the winter before. One line had described “a young men whose face was not shadowed by sexsin.” I had been far too shy to ask the teacher what it meant, and mama had blushed scarlet when I consulted her. In those days just after the turn of the century sex was never discussed, even at home. So the line had stuck in my head. “Sex,” I was pretty sure, meant whether you were a boy or a girl, and “sin” made Tante (Aunt) Jans very angry, but what the two together meant I could not imagine. And so, seated next to Father in the train compartment, I suddenly asked, “Father, what is sexsin?”
He turned to look at me, as he always did when answering a question, but to my surprise he said nothing. At last he stood up, lifted his traveling case from the rack over our heads, and set it on the floor.
“Will you carry it off the train, Corrie?” he said. I stood up and tugged at it. It was crammed with the watches and spare parts he had purchased that morning.
“It’s too heavy,” I said.
“Yes,” he said. “And it would be a pretty poor father who would ask his little daughter to carry such a load. It’s the same way, Corrie, with knowledge. Some knowledge is too heavy for children. When you are older and stronger you can bear it. For now you must trust me to carry it for you.”
And I was satisfied. More than satisfied, wonderfully at peace. There were answers to this and all my hard questions, for now I was content to leave them in my father’s keeping. - Corrie Ten Boom
The problem that so many people have these days is that we are capable of amassing a wealth of knowledge but lack wisdom. Knowledge is literally at our beck and call whenever we need it "Ok Google, riddle me this..." or "Siri, tell me this..." Knowledge is cheap. Corrie's father had knowledge. He also had the wisdom to know when it is appropriate to share it and who it is appropriate to share it with.
He turned to look at me, as he always did when answering a question, but to my surprise he said nothing. At last he stood up, lifted his traveling case from the rack over our heads, and set it on the floor.
“Will you carry it off the train, Corrie?” he said. I stood up and tugged at it. It was crammed with the watches and spare parts he had purchased that morning.
“It’s too heavy,” I said.
“Yes,” he said. “And it would be a pretty poor father who would ask his little daughter to carry such a load. It’s the same way, Corrie, with knowledge. Some knowledge is too heavy for children. When you are older and stronger you can bear it. For now you must trust me to carry it for you.”
And I was satisfied. More than satisfied, wonderfully at peace. There were answers to this and all my hard questions, for now I was content to leave them in my father’s keeping. - Corrie Ten Boom
The problem that so many people have these days is that we are capable of amassing a wealth of knowledge but lack wisdom. Knowledge is literally at our beck and call whenever we need it "Ok Google, riddle me this..." or "Siri, tell me this..." Knowledge is cheap. Corrie's father had knowledge. He also had the wisdom to know when it is appropriate to share it and who it is appropriate to share it with.
That point of view seems perfectly legitimate but it seems our world context is different. Young children will hear things from their classmates. Television ads, such as Adidas, openly talk about transsexuals in sports.
It seems the challenge for parents is to find ways to communicate at levels understandable to their children. That is in addition to deciding what content to communicate.
Exactly. Parents should be deciding how and when to communicate about this information. Not teachers. Not school staff. Parents.
Again, I did the minimum as far as 'research' but the majority of states already have sex education laws, including Florida, which state that it's not taught until sixth grade at the earliest.
So what is the point of this law other than to virtue signal a culture war and/or to straight up censor potential awkward speech that hasn't been an issue for years until now because a group of conservatives don't like the topic even though kids are coming from a variety of complicated families (ie same sex marriage families, divorcee families, single mother families, widowed families, re-married families with half siblings) much less if kids are struggling at home.
Made up examples. Say a kids is being abused at home because they feel they are gay. Say a kid is scared of abuse at home because they feel they are gay. Say a kid is being bullied because other kids think they are gay and those kids father's told them that gays were inherently evil people that need to be rid of the earth per God's will.....or they just learned from home that gays are weak and have mental issues (ring a bell here. For years that was an attitude and still is in some dumbass religious centers.... particularly evangelicals who believe in 'conversion therapy'.
Yeah, conservative thinking.
For trans it's even worse. It's 1960 for them with one group of people claiming that it's a mental illness that can be 'cured'....instead of the more simpler route of mind your own f'ing business, leave people alone, live and let live and enjoy your life acceptance.
Otherwise known as the ultimate amendment....the freedom of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
So yeah, this is an awful, closed minded and hateful law that is targeting a certain group of people.
This is the kind of law that gets passed in Hungary under an authoritarian rule. Wait, it's exactly a law that was passed by Orban.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/hungary-passes-law-banning-lbgt-content-in-schools
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
The point nobody in this age group needs adults who are not their parents talking to them about such things. Do you remember what it was like to be in this age group? I didn't learn the birds and the bees until I was nine. My mother and sister told me about it. Even at that advanced age I said to them,"Well, when I get married me and my wife are going to adopt". Now it didn't turn out that way but at the time I meant it. And I was nine!!!
I will let the inconsistencies in your own post speak for themselves.
“Mind your own business“ basically means let parents teach their own kids.
As for bullying, that’s power tripping at a young age. Nothing in this law prevents teachers from inculcating tolerance as a concept and stifling bullying at every turn. Anti-bullying instruction does not require any instruction on LGBTQ whatsoever.
There is no disputing that various societal institutions, including advertising on TV, are advocating pro-LGBTQ viewpoints. The trans section of this law simply says don’t include it in public school curriculum or instruction before fourth grade.
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
I got a serious question for you. The word tolerant is important. It means you put up with something you don't necessarily agree with. Is this the idea of tolerance in this program? Or are they saying that you have to believe something is just as valid as your won beliefs? There is a huge difference. I see it this way. As a Bible believing Christian I believe homosexuality,fornication, etc to be sins against God and thus not part of His prescribed Will. Yet I have always been kind to gays,lesbians,people living together without being married etc. So in my view I have been tolerant. I don't agree with these life style choices yet can be kind and love them.
I never dug into the details but I think basically the point is to create tolerance as you’re describing it for everybody in school.
In schools, tolerance only goes one way.
You can't expect schools to be the arbiter of morals and politeness. That's a parental job. It's not up to some school board or teacher.
Is the purpose of this law about sex education, which again is prohibited until sixth grade, or is it condemning inclusion of a certain group of people including parents and children (the whole deny that a person exists), which is what I believe it is.
Fine, I personally don't believe there are anatomy and gender classes being taught but if you want to have it in law like with sex education...okay. You can't have a lesson about gender until 4th grade.
I don't believe that's the case.
This seems to be a censorship law which is a much darker intent that's left vague on purpose. Hence, 'don't even say gay'.
I also don't think this is a one off, I think it's just the beginning (again, it's a lighter version of what is being done in Hungary by Orban).
Vague laws trying to force shape a religious morality.
We'll see.
That definition of tolerance is what a lot of people feel it is.
It's me in a position of power sacrificing something to give permission to let happen. The 'I'll allow it' as again, you have the power but you will adjust and allow it even though it's not normal, natural or in many beliefs 'God's way'.
I don't believe that's what tolerance is. To me it's asking the question 'I don't like it but is it forcing something on me that is going to alter me against my will'. In other words is anyone forcing their will onto me causing me to change my personal will.
Does seeing a loving gay couple turn you gay against your will.
Does seeing a cross dresser force you to start cross dressing.
Tolerance is appreciating the unalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I personally was just on a Mexican vacation and was hanging out in the ocean talking to God as I joked to my girlfriend (she was laying out by the pool and I would get up and say 'I'm going to go talk to God' which meant I'm heading out to splash in the ocean waves).
I get out there and there is a young gay couple frolicking in the waves. Now my first reaction was 'this is kind of uncomfortable' but who am I to shit on two dudes enjoying their vacation and not messing with me. There was nothing about that situation that appealed to me and nothing in that situation that physically threatened me....so leave them alone in their happiness.
Isn't that what we all want?
As far as I can tell the law states: "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."
The law is entitled Parental Rights in Education and that seems to be the main focus as far as I can tell. Clearly either a majority or at least a plurality of people in Florida don’t want their children exposed to this type of instruction early on in school. Calling it censorship and labeling it the “don’t say gay” bill is a liberal talking point meant to trigger people like you. I don’t really have any skin in this debate. I’m simply joining it for fun. So far your arguments haven’t convinced me.
Kids at that age aren't gay, straight, queer, trans or anything. They are just kids. Their interests are recess, lunch, recess, snacks, singing a song, and going home. Yapping about gay sex, or trans people at these ages is an adult thing, not a kid thing. Let the kids be kids; period! Anything else is a parent thing.
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
Do you feel the current cancel culture is against your view of tolerance? You said To me it's asking the question 'I don't like it but is it forcing something on me that is going to alter me against my will'. In other words is anyone forcing their will onto me causing me to change my personal will. If I can be cancelled or anyone else for just spouting off our feelings on something then I would say that is one of the most intolerant things a person can do. To cancel people means you are impeding their ability to make a living or even to speak. The platforms like youtube/facebook/ google actually in a way make it look like people don't exist. They are erased. It's almost like it is out of the old twilight zone. Thank you for your thoughts. I too see it this way. Live and let live. Now if they ask my opinion of their lives then I feel as though I can in a courteous way with love in my heart share my beliefs.
You need to do more researching outside your bubble to find out what is happening in different schools.
What exactly do you leftists/ trans/ gays believe is going on in the straight teacher classrooms?
Student: “What did you do this weekend Mr. Farva?”
Teacher: “We’ll let me tell you Billy, it was my birthday so I reamed out the wife with some anal, and then I put it in her pussy after because we’re a heterosexual couple and we like having straight, heteronormative sexual intercourse”
Get ****ing real. The bill applies to class room instruction only. No one is saying some fairy can’t tell a kid he went paddle boarding with his bottom if the students asks.
Student: “What did you do this weekend Mr. Farva?”
Teacher: “We’ll let me tell you Billy, it was my birthday so I reamed out the wife with some anal, and then I put it in her pussy after because we’re a heterosexual couple and we like having straight, heteronormative sexual intercourse”
Get ****ing real. The bill applies to class room instruction only. No one is saying some fairy can’t tell a kid he went paddle boarding with his bottom if the students asks.
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Your definition of tolerance explains exactly the motivations behind Parental Rights in Education.
Such parents don’t want their young school-age children to be forced to think about such issues before they’re developmentally ready to do so.
I think the issue of bullying may be more emotionally disturbing in grade school than the issue of intolerance.
100% that it's the projected bullying and shaming (particularly of a group that has been egregiously bullied in history) that has many people defensive coming into it, along with the reputation of the leaders who are pushing it through who have zero trust from that part of the community in particular.
The problem is the vagueness.
As I've said multiple times, sex Ed is outlawed pretty much everywhere until sixth grade at the earliest.
Doesn't that take care of any potential school curriculum with this?
It's why the initial reaction is it's a denial of gay and trans parents or adult lifestyles.
I guess I don't see the point of the addendum to basic sex Ed laws.
Much ado about very little. Anecdotal evidence, a few stories that Fox News and other right wing outlets constantly trumpet to stir the pot to get people and organized groups upset. Do people honestly think teachers WANT to talk about sex, genders, etc with students? Students ask questions, students sometimes have no one else to tsk to, including and sometimes especially their parents. Teachers wants their students to stay safe, not be bullied, and not commit suicide because they have no one to talk to.Why is it a disaster?
EXC: School nurse axed for revealing student is on puberty blockers
Kathleen Cataford was suspended by the Hartford Public Schools School District after she posted the comments containing specific and private details about students.www.dailymail.co.uk
If your 11 year old daughter was being given puberty blockers by the school, with the help of "social workers" or to a lesser extent, if they were even having conversations about this with your child, would you want to know?
And for all the idea that these laws are based on just anecdotal things here and there, there sure seems to he A)a shitload of anecdotes available on a regular basis and B) a whole bunch of teachers losing their shit about not being able to have conversations they supposedly are not having.
If a child is not being abused and put in danger by the parent, a school has no business getting involved in this stuff. Zero. We send our kids to school to learn academic subjects. If this stuff is not needed and is just made up by the right, how do any of the people commenting on this board explain all this?
Both parties suck. I prefer the one that endeavors to do less. What will be entertaining is when Nov hits and the Dems lose the house and all the Jan 6 work will be wasted. Waste. Gov. Fix the bridges and get out of the way
Ran religions out of schools? You want religion in schools? Which one? This attack on teachers is already scaring good teachers away and will continue to do so. Hopefully everyone will come to their senses before we are in crisis mode.
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
How many kindergartners through third grade commit suicide? This is what the Florida Bill is about. It's not about high school even Junior High. The Bill is just saying that teachers can't talk about these subjects to students k-3 grade. This is reasonable.
Party of law and order? Except when it’s the GOP breaking the law…. Then it’s move on. Years of hearings on Benghazi but heaven forbid we try to hold anyone accountable for January 6. Especially when it’s pretty obvious some pretty high level government officials were involved.
Don't worry the retaliatory investigations will begin next year. It's all dumb. Hunter. Joe. Fauci. Afghanistan.
All the January 6 work will be published by then. It won't make a difference in the midterms, but we can hope it damages Trump enough to take him out of the picture for 2024.
It won't. It's a political vendetta by people with personal animus and an axe to grind. Everyone has already made up their mind on trump. This is politics. Maybe the new batch coming in will elevate Congress in Nov. Cawthorne Bush and others need to go
That’s great, but depends on parents. Sadly, too many people here have zero idea the kind of parents some of our kids have. In jail, living with grandparents, drug addicts. Who do you think is helping these kids?
The vague part is the part that comes after that… age related. Who gets to decide that? Of course not many , if any children that young commit suicide, but the bullying and shaming starts then, which can lead to it later.
Please tell us. Let me guess… does it involve the new word of the week… grooming?
Cancel culture is bad. Just ask the Dixie Chicks, Colin Kaeperernick, Jane Fonda, Kathy Griffin, Michelle Wolf, French fries. Yep it’s bad.
Tell me you’ve never visited a classroom without telling me you’ve never visited a classroom. You sure as hell better hope teachers are teaching morals, politeness, tolerance, etc. Cause way too many are NOT getting it at home.
I guess when I think of 'cancel culture', it's generally calling out bullying behavior. Bullying behavior seems naturally a physical forcing of the will.
But I think I get your point, cancel culture is more prevalent in the private sector. It's more personal brand based and 'capitalism' doesn't have the same rules as the individual. Capitalism pretty much mirrors social group think, again in general.
As Zeke said above, the Dixie Chicks didn't go to jail for their anti Bush/anti war comments...but the nature of capitalism got them as they were cancelled.
So those two elements seem to be in the cancel culture soup.
Individually I would say a distinction is discrimination, and discrimination to me generally boils down to how easy can a person control what it is they are being discriminated for.
Skin color/ethnicity, who you are attracted to, sex, height, hair color, family and parents, neighborhood you grew up.
It's hard to change that.
Hate....that is a choice. It's hard claim discrimination when you choose to hate. It's hard for me to say 'that Nazi is being discriminated because he wants to eradicate the jews'.
Wearing a mask during a health crisis...that is a choice. I know some argue that they are being discriminated against from mandates because they choose not to wear a mask or get vaccinated.
No, there is nothing preventing you from wearing a mask anymore than me arguing discrimination because I don't want to wear clothes in public.
How you treat others.... that's a choice.
In general cancel culture is the reaction to a choice that someone made and can be changed.
For me I don't care what you persuit or believe in as long as it doesn't threaten/hurt those around you.
That simple formula pretty much covers the joys and the evil of the world.
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I think it is pretty safe to say kindergarten kids aren't being taught to be gay or shown anything of a sexual nature.
Basic sex education, as I understand it (not that I’ve ever visited the curriculum), covers the physical aspects of procreation. Gender identity has absolutely nothing to do with that. Distinct topic.
