The Big Lie was even crazier than we knew...

[Marvin the Martian]

Noodling something in your brain is one thing; drafting an order another. The second is an indicator that you believe that option a legitimate one. I think that’s important to know.

I have seen meetings where "no idea is too stupid" is the rule. But even there a military coup might be considered too far. To commit it to paper is stupid for two reasons. 1) someone thought it was important enough to commit to paper 2) someone had no fear of the paper being found.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Noodling something in your brain is one thing; drafting an order another. The second is an indicator that you believe that option a legitimate one. I think that’s important to know.

Yeah, there is a difference between a noodle and a written proposal, but unexecuted policy is still substantially meaningless in my mind.

 

[NPT]

The United States has, at least in my lifetime, led the world in election integrity. We've been the model other countries have followed, not the other way around. Sadly, Trump has destroyed confidence in our elections, the cornerstone of democracy, and duped you and millions of others into believing that it's a broken system that needs to be fixed.

According to that article they haven't followed us. Of course they expect their citizens to do something to vote except go out to the mailbox.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

The United States has, at least in my lifetime, led the world in election integrity. We've been the model other countries have followed, not the other way around. Sadly, Trump has destroyed confidence in our elections, the cornerstone of democracy, and duped you and millions of others into believing that it's a broken system that needs to be fixed.

The POTUS and congressional full-on attack on all state government election reform laws they disagree with is a serious degradation of principles of federalism and separation of powers. Any infirmity in state law is for the courts to decide. And the DOJ already lost the big case. Biden, Harris, and the congressional leadership have done more to damage our government structure and election integrity than Trump can ever do. And Biden doubled down at his presser. Shameful.

 

[DANC]

Our institutions, however strong, have no power to stop a mentally ill, impulsive, incompetent individual from destructive acts until it’s too late. I think our democracy and society in general is teetering on the brink of self annihilation. Exhibit A is the fact people are actually willing to vote this man back into office after seeing clearly what he’s about for four years. I’m not optimistic on America’s future. We’ve lost our way, and character as a nation. We are a “Christian Nation”
in name only, if we ever were.

"I’m not optimistic on America’s future. We’ve lost our way, and character as a nation."

You're right, but not for the reasons you think.

 

[NPT]

Yeah, there is a difference between a noodle and a written proposal, but unexecuted policy is still substantially meaningless in my mind.

It may be... I'd love to see some of the written unexecuted policies of all presidents. I'll bet we'd get some great surprises... some that we would never have believed if we hadn't seen them.

 

[Bowlmania]

The POTUS and congressional full-on attack on all state government election reform laws they disagree with is a serious degradation of principles of federalism and separation of powers. Any infirmity in state law is for the courts to decide. And the DOJ already lost the big case. Biden, Harris, and the congressional leadership have done more to damage our government structure and election integrity than Trump can ever do. And Biden doubled down at his presser. Shameful.

You're conveniently ignoring a critical fact. The election "reform" laws that have been passed in states controlled by Republican legislatures (and most of these laws make voting harder) are based on the false premise that there was widespread election fraud in the 2020 election (Thank you, Donald Trump). No court has been presented with evidence of widespread fraud, no audit has uncovered it, no recount has found it, and the Attorney General of the United States (Bill Barr) said it didn't happen.

Finally, I love that you're promoting federalism and states' rights the day after the disclosure of a draft Executive Order, obviously prepared by a senior member of the Trump administration, calling for the Secretary of Defense (and, by extension, the US military) to seize voting machines and records pertaining to the 2020 election. But keep whitewashing this, and keep propping up Trump. You're his dream supporter.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

You're conveniently ignoring a critical fact. The election "reform" laws that have been passed in states controlled by Republican legislatures (and most of these laws make voting harder) are based on the false premise that there was widespread election fraud in the 2020 election (Thank you, Donald Trump). No court has been presented with evidence of widespread fraud, no audit has uncovered it, no recount has found it, and the Attorney General of the United States (Bill Barr) said it didn't happen.

Finally, I love that you're promoting federalism and states' rights the day after the disclosure of a draft Executive Order, obviously prepared by a senior member of the Trump administration, calling for the Secretary of Defense (and, by extension, the US military) to seize voting machines and records pertaining to the 2020 election. But keep whitewashing this, and keep propping up Trump. You're his dream supporter.

Well I guess I’m “ conveniently” ignoring that fact because that fact doesn’t matter. Your fact is no basis to challenge the reforms.

The draft EO is a nothingburger for many reasons. It has zero affect.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

Colorado allows everyone to vote by mail. No evidence of widespread voter fraud.

Pubs don't want people to have options to vote because it gets in their way of having long lines deter voting in big cities, where democrats have the advantage.

No one is saying not to have people provide proof of ID. ID can be proven without being in person.

 

[Crayfish57]

Colorado allows everyone to vote by mail. No evidence of widespread voter fraud.

Pubs don't want people to have options to vote because it gets in their way of having long lines deter voting in big cities, where democrats have the advantage.

No one is saying not to have people provide proof of ID. ID can be proven without being in person.

Just how would that be? i am asking a serious question how you think this can be accomplished on a large scale providing proof of ID but not being there in person. Anxiously awaiting to hear your plan

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

 

[CO. Hoosier]

LOL. So exposing authoritarian tendencies is the real danger.

I don’t think it’s an overstatement to say almost everybody in all levels of government privately display authoritarian tendencies. Obama didn’t even hide his as he publicly displayed his wish for more authority when he said it was too bad the constitution was such a limit on doing what he wanted to do.

We survived all of that because of our institutions. Instead of whining about actions never taken, I’m more concerned of what those in Washington are now doing to destroy federalism and separation of powers.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Just how would that be? i am asking a serious question how you think this can be accomplished on a large scale providing proof of ID but not being there in person. Anxiously awaiting to hear your plan

Strict control over who gets a ballot and rigorous signature match on the return. The lack of control over the first signature was a huge failure of the hasty 2020 mail system.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

I doubt the military would have followed, but writing that paper alone shows horrible judgement by someone. Did we ever find paper written by Clinton's administration suggesting the military seize Florida's ballots? I don't recall that.

I don't think we have discussed the other revelation, that in several states forms were submitted with differing electors. Isn't that the very definition of fraud? I would think I am not allowed to create a form showing I am an official elector and submit it to the National Archive hoping they choose me by mistake.

My greatest concern in the last few months of the Trump admin was that a President would - for the first time in US history - give the military an order that would be ignored. THAT a is a true CONSTITUTIONAL crisis AND a military crisis. Once a national military ignores a civilian CIC - even for an arguably good reason - the paste is out of the tube. Civilian rule is at risk, forever.

We need agreed, consensus-driven election rules that both parties will sell. If a President can perceive or sell or even fake “good cause” seizure of votes in one place, they can do it anywhere/everywhere.

No matter who, these are dangerous steps, dangerous precedents.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

You're conveniently ignoring a critical fact. The election "reform" laws that have been passed in states controlled by Republican legislatures (and most of these laws make voting harder) are based on the false premise that there was widespread election fraud in the 2020 election (Thank you, Donald Trump). No court has been presented with evidence of widespread fraud, no audit has uncovered it, no recount has found it, and the Attorney General of the United States (Bill Barr) said it didn't happen.

Finally, I love that you're promoting federalism and states' rights the day after the disclosure of a draft Executive Order, obviously prepared by a senior member of the Trump administration, calling for the Secretary of Defense (and, by extension, the US military) to seize voting machines and records pertaining to the 2020 election. But keep whitewashing this, and keep propping up Trump. You're his dream supporter.

A laws wisdom doesn’t depend on WHY it was passed.

Its either a good law or it isn’t.

A lower speed limit might be OK even though there were no wrecks but MAFD still thought the curves were dangerous.

 

[ORG]

A couple of questions.

1. How is a draft executive order that was never issued an indicator of anything? Drafts of documents aren’t even subject to FIOA requests in Colorado. Drafts are nothingburgers.

2. If January 6 was an attempted insurrection, what would a successful insurrection look like and did the January 6 rioters have the ability to carry out such an insurrection?

What’s weird to me is the huge overreaction to January 6 which overreaction is now programmed into the Democratic mind.

If it was an insurrection, how many of the hundreds of people who have been arrested, have been charged with insurrection?

 

[bub-rub]

A laws wisdom doesn’t depend on WHY it was passed.

Its either a good law or it isn’t.

A lower speed limit might be OK even though there were no wrecks but MAFD still thought the curves were dangerous.

yup, gotta charge the little guy bringing home $300 a week a little more to get an ID he doesn’t need for anything else in the world or else he’s likely to commit large scale voter fraud

Thankfully the citizen election security team is on the case!

 

[outside shooter]

If it was an insurrection, how many of the hundreds of people who have been arrested, have been charged with insurrection?

11 so far, on the charge of sedition

Judge orders detention for Oath Keeper charged with U.S. Capitol riot sedition

A judge on Thursday refused to release from jail a member of the far-right Oath Keepers group charged with seditious conspiracy over allegations he helped plan the deadly Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol.

www.reuters.com

 

[Marvin the Martian]

My greatest concern in the last few months of the Trump admin was that a President would - for the first time in US history - give the military an order that would be ignored. THAT a is a true CONSTITUTIONAL crisis AND a military crisis. Once a national military ignores a civilian CIC - even for an arguably good reason - the paste is out of the tube. Civilian rule is at risk, forever.

We need agreed, consensus-driven election rules that both parties will sell. If a President can perceive or sell or even fake “good cause” seizure of votes in one place, they can do it anywhere/everywhere.

No matter who, these are dangerous steps, dangerous precedents.

I have to admit having a chief fear that it is better the military SHOULD assist in a coup over a military refusing to take part in a coup is unusual. Do you also worry about a military that would not build concentration camps more than one that would?

We allow the military to ignore an illegal order. But the better be right. We punished Lt Calley for not ignoring an illegal order. Are you saying privates through colonels have that right but not generals?

I am comforted by a military forced to obey the rule of law.

 

[Bowlmania]

A laws wisdom doesn’t depend on WHY it was passed.

Its either a good law or it isn’t.

A lower speed limit might be OK even though there were no wrecks but MAFD still thought the curves were dangerous.

Laws that impose voting restrictions are bad laws.

What's MAFD?

 

[Bowlmania]

Well I guess I’m “ conveniently” ignoring that fact because that fact doesn’t matter. Your fact is no basis to challenge the reforms.

The draft EO is a nothingburger for many reasons. It has zero affect.

You'd have more credibility if you simple wrote, "Trump Forever!" or "Any Republican is better than a dirty Dem!" rather than repeatedly trying to whitewash Trump's unprecedented misconduct as president.

An administration that gives serious consideration to using the military to seize voting machines and election records is reprehensible and un-American. Trump took a wrecking ball to American democracy from November 3, 2020 to January 20, 2021 and beyond. The fact that you believe none of that is of any real consequence doesn't say much for you.

 

[mcmurtry66]

11 so far, on the charge of sedition

Judge orders detention for Oath Keeper charged with U.S. Capitol riot sedition

A judge on Thursday refused to release from jail a member of the far-right Oath Keepers group charged with seditious conspiracy over allegations he helped plan the deadly Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol.

www.reuters.com

A whole 11 guys?!! And it didn't work?! Those 11 guys weren't able to overthrow our government?! Come on! That seems like it'd be more than enough. I know the defense budget is 700 billion but these 11 guys were serious!! Frustrating. I wonder if a few other guys had to work and couldn't make it. They could have made a difference. Or if they brought guns? That could have helped too. I also heard a few guys were having a hard time getting gas money together. Sucks. I guess every man counted. Ugh.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Laws that impose voting restrictions are bad laws.

What's MAFD?

Almost all election laws impose restrictions on voting. Including the laws that say you can only vote once and those that require a voter to be registered and be a real person who is eligible to register. .

 

[CO. Hoosier]

You'd have more credibility if you simple wrote, "Trump Forever!" or "Any Republican is better than a dirty Dem!" rather than repeatedly trying to whitewash Trump's unprecedented misconduct as president.

An administration that gives serious consideration to using the military to seize voting machines and election records is reprehensible and un-American. Trump took a wrecking ball to American democracy from November 3, 2020 to January 20, 2021 and beyond. The fact that you believe none of that is of any real consequence doesn't say much for you.

Where did I “whitewash” Trump’s notion about machines or any of his post-election behavior? I criticized all of it often including in this thread.

If you can’t figure out the difference between what I said and what you think I said, I can’t help you. Nuance baby!

 

[CO. Hoosier]

11 so far, on the charge of sedition

Judge orders detention for Oath Keeper charged with U.S. Capitol riot sedition

A judge on Thursday refused to release from jail a member of the far-right Oath Keepers group charged with seditious conspiracy over allegations he helped plan the deadly Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol.

www.reuters.com

Sedition is a long way from insurrection. Arguably, thousands of Democrats and media honchos committed sedition with all their RESIST! bullshit. Pelosi and others even bragged about encouraging people to rebel against the President’s authority from the house and senate chambers. Don’t forget the despicable display of challenging SCOTUS authority Schumer performed at the entrance to the Supreme Court building. And then there is this:

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

I have to admit having a chief fear that it is better the military SHOULD assist in a coup over a military refusing to take part in a coup is unusual. Do you also worry about a military that would not build concentration camps more than one that would?

We allow the military to ignore an illegal order. But the better be right. We punished Lt Calley for not ignoring an illegal order. Are you saying privates through colonels have that right but not generals?

I am comforted by a military forced to obey the rule of law.

I wasn’t clear. And of course it depends on circumstances. But a really horrible circumstantial order? Yeah. It’s good a military can/should/is expected to disobey. But even when it happens because it needs to, under circumstances we would all agree about, it’s still a precedent - and the next time the Generals may find it easier to “judge for themselves.” And of course, it shows why character matters in a CIC.

Just imagining for a few minutes what kind of circumstances can produce orders which might be ignored is frightening.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I wasn’t clear. And of course it depends on circumstances. But a really horrible circumstantial order? Yeah. It’s good a military can/should/is expected to disobey. But even when it happens because it needs to, under circumstances we would all agree about, it’s still a precedent - and the next time the Generals may find it easier to “judge for themselves.” And of course, it shows why character matters in a CIC.

Just imagining for a few minutes what kind of circumstances can produce orders which might be ignored is frightening.

Orders from those of good character isn’t the difference-maker. Some issues are not solvable.

 

[IUINSB]

I wasn’t clear. And of course it depends on circumstances. But a really horrible circumstantial order? Yeah. It’s good a military can/should/is expected to disobey. But even when it happens because it needs to, under circumstances we would all agree about, it’s still a precedent - and the next time the Generals may find it easier to “judge for themselves.” And of course, it shows why character matters in a CIC.

Just imagining for a few minutes what kind of circumstances can produce orders which might be ignored is frightening.

I too worry about the military refusing to carry out a legal order, but I'm worried more about the precedent of presidential advisors contemplating the use of troops to seize voting machines/ballots.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I too worry about the military refusing to carry out a legal order, but I'm worried more about the precedent of presidential advisors contemplating the use of troops to seize voting machines/ballots.

I don’t believe you. I think your concern centers on who issues the order, not on the substance of the order.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I wasn’t clear. And of course it depends on circumstances. But a really horrible circumstantial order? Yeah. It’s good a military can/should/is expected to disobey. But even when it happens because it needs to, under circumstances we would all agree about, it’s still a precedent - and the next time the Generals may find it easier to “judge for themselves.” And of course, it shows why character matters in a CIC.

Just imagining for a few minutes what kind of circumstances can produce orders which might be ignored is frightening.

I recall Hitler changing the oath to be to him personally and not to the country. Here the oath is sworn to the constitution. I agree refusing orders can lead to a problem but I believe the problems are less than any alternative. Uphold the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

 

[IUINSB]

I don’t believe you. I think your concern centers on who issues the order, not on the substance of the order.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Trump, Hillary, Biden, Kamala, anyone in a position of power.

I love my country more than a political party, a particular candidate, or a conservative/liberal ideology.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

I too worry about the military refusing to carry out a legal order, but I'm worried more about the precedent of presidential advisors contemplating the use of troops to seize voting machines/ballots.

this Is why election rules need to be a product of consensus.

it is easy to imagine facts where one side or the other genuinely believes DNA deep they got screwed and that seizing machines is required to protect democracy- especially in an era when one side is always claiming that all dissent is treasonous and democracy is under threat every time they lose a race for dog catcher.

GORE WON FLORIDA!
TRUMP WON GEORGIA!


What if a Governor does it instead of a President?

Extreme anonymous-social-media-driven partisanship is the threat to democracy right now.

 

[IUINSB]

this Is why election rules need to be a product of consensus.

it is easy to imagine facts where one side or the other genuinely believes DNA deep they got screwed and that seizing machines is required to protect democracy- especially in an era when one side is always claiming that all dissent is treasonous and democracy is under threat every time they lose a race for dog catcher.

GORE WON FLORIDA!
TRUMP WON GEORGIA!


What if a Governor does it instead of a President?

Extreme anonymous-social-media-driven partisanship is the threat to democracy right now.

I'm OK with local governments seizing machines, after all I'm originally from the Region so I am very familiar with election hanky panky. Just don't want fed troops involved.

Absolutely agree with your last statement.

 

[DANC]

My greatest concern in the last few months of the Trump admin was that a President would - for the first time in US history - give the military an order that would be ignored. THAT a is a true CONSTITUTIONAL crisis AND a military crisis. Once a national military ignores a civilian CIC - even for an arguably good reason - the paste is out of the tube. Civilian rule is at risk, forever.

We need agreed, consensus-driven election rules that both parties will sell. If a President can perceive or sell or even fake “good cause” seizure of votes in one place, they can do it anywhere/everywhere.

No matter who, these are dangerous steps, dangerous precedents.

My greatest concern was realized a long time ago - when the IRS targeted Conservative groups and the FBI participated, with the Democrat party, in the attempted coup of a legitimately-elected President.

If you want to talk about paste out of the tube, those were the moments.

And do you know what's happened after those incidents? Not a damn thing. Today, there is no penalty for Democrats acting illegally or outside the Constitution, so that ship has sailed.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Sorry, but you are wrong. Trump, Hillary, Biden, Kamala, anyone in a position of power.

I love my country more than a political party, a particular candidate, or a conservative/liberal ideology.

Bobby Kennedy probably ordered the most significant violation if the 4th Amendment of any AG in history. He got a pass for who he was, not for what he did. I think this discussion is similar. It’s all about who Trump is. There certainly are conceivable circumstances where such an order could be appropriate. The outsized reaction to his presidency is damaging all of us. Now some Democrats, academia types, and media commentariat are seriously proposing using the 14th Amendment disqualification clause on Trump and some of his supporters. I can’t imagine a worse action. That scares me a lot more than the EO that also was never issued.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

My greatest concern was realized a long time ago - when the IRS targeted Conservative groups and the FBI participated, with the Democrat party, in the attempted coup of a legitimately-elected President.

If you want to talk about paste out of the tube, those were the moments.

And do you know what's happened after those incidents? Not a damn thing. Today, there is no penalty for Democrats acting illegally or outside the Constitution, so that ship has sailed.

I very much agree that the Dems politicized and weaponized the IRS and FBI. As I said earlier, even Nixon had more decency and at least tried to hide The Plumbers.

But that’s still different than ordering the military to act.

Everyone imagines the worst case - a nuke order. But some lessers might be just as bad for democracy - imagine McClellan flatly refusing to fight after a direct Lincoln order. Or even the military (McArthur) refusing an order to clear out WWI protesters in DC demanding their pay and pensions. Or an order to clear out The March as MLK a delivers the Dream speech.

The possibilities are endless and crazy.

 

[UncleMark]

I don’t believe you. I think your concern centers on who issues the order, not on the substance of the order.

I love my country more than a political party, a particular candidate, or a conservative/liberal ideology.

That's the difference between you and COH.

 

[DANC]

I very much agree that the Dems politicized and weaponized the IRS and FBI. As I said earlier, even Nixon had more decency and at least tried to hide The Plumbers.

But that’s still different than ordering the military to act.

Everyone imagines the worst case - a nuke order. But some lessers might be just as bad for democracy - imagine McClellan flatly refusing to fight after a direct Lincoln order. Or even the military (McArthur) refusing an order to clear out WWI protesters in DC demanding their pay and pensions. Or an order to clear out The March as MLK a delivers the Dream speech.

The possibilities are endless and crazy.

I would bet there have been many Presidential orders that have been partially executed or ignored in the past.

What happens in the instances you mention? The people are fired. It happens all the time - people are fired or quit because of an order/policy they don't agree with.

Institutional malfeasance is much less obvious, but just as insidious. And don't think those the actions of those institutions aren't directed by someone - either the President or members of the Administration.

Unlike institutions, a President can be swayed by public opinion and staff. And our military are not robots and I am confident that, even if the military was directed to perform some kind of action outside the Constitution, sane heads would prevail. They swear an oath to the Constitution, not the President.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I recall Hitler changing the oath to be to him personally and not to the country. Here the oath is sworn to the constitution. I agree refusing orders can lead to a problem but I believe the problems are less than any alternative. Uphold the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

I think MTIOF is saying he agrees with that but it’s a principle in tension with the chain-of-command requirement for the military. He doesn’t want to see that tension pushed to an extreme. And Trump scared a lot of people that he would (maybe did?).

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I think MTIOF is saying he agrees with that but it’s a principle in tension with the chain-of-command requirement for the military. He doesn’t want to see that tension pushed to an extreme. And Trump scared a lot of people that he would (maybe did?).

President Bush issued an order to shoot down a US airliner full of people (or was about to) . How sure must POTUS be to issue the order? What about the military and the pilot who must fire the missile?

All of these decisions are ad hoc. They don’t lend themselves to generalizing.