Produce equal students

[CO. Hoosier]

On the topic of education, I attended an Ivy League graduation this past weekend. I’m just a simple yokel from the Midwest and had only been on one other Ivy League campus before so I’m embarrassed to admit that going in, I was actually a little excited. If only for the mystique and history oozing from these institutions.

In the days I spent there walking around the beautiful campus, interacting with the graduate’s friends, hearing from the faculty at both the university wide and smaller school graduation, I couldn’t get this one descriptor to stop running through my mind……. “pampered mediocrity”.

If these kids are the future of America, we are truly and genuinely f*cked. The average Kelley would run circles around these people.

After what seemed like a two hour long honorary degree, self congratulatory, circle jerk, the commencement address began. It was to be given by Ken Burns, a once great documentarian.

Burns proceeded to tell the audience that history is not fixed, it is not to be accepted as settled events in our past to draw lasting lessons from.

Instead it is incumbent upon each generation to analyze history through their respective lense and draw their own conclusions based on the standards we now hold today. Burns could not, and would not, extoll any of the virtues of the University founder, Benjamin Franklin, without subsequently qualifying it by mentioning one of his vices.

These universities, their students and alumni once represented the pinnacle of our countries meritocracy, not any longer…

JB produces good stuff, but his racial politics has always sucked.

There is no valor in celebrating the vices of the founders. The founders legacy is a moral civil order that was a first in the world experiment. Yeah, for different reasons, not everyone had access, but we constantly struggled to change that and made astounding progress. Thanks to the civil order of the founders’ bequest. Then along came the black racists of the late 20th and 21st centuries who trade on ignoring prigress and reacting like the original slavery and bigotry is still here. They struggle mightily to recognize the vices of the people of the past as if that provides a way forward. Higher Ed bought the argument. What could be the purpose of Burns talking about Franklin’s vices in the context of solving todays problems? There isn’t any. It’s only a matter fir the dust bin of history. It’s not relevant.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Harvard, Yale, Columbia, & Princeton
(gap)
Cornell, Brown (for undergrads, not much of a grad program)
(gap)
Dartmouth, Penn


Penn has a better grad program than many of the others, I'll give you that.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

Not dispositive but ranked above Cornell, Brown, and Dartmouth.... In my travels Cornell has always been at the bottom of the Ivy League perception
And yes Penn is far ahead of the others in many grad programs

 

[mcmurtry66]

I'm not sure about this. Increasing pay is supposed to incentive the hiring of NEW and better employees. That takes a long time to work its way through a system. Then, for maximum effect, you need to wait because you need to give the new and better teachers (if they come) time to learn, and time their teaching methods to take hold and show evidence at the high school level (which is what is the most important ultimate benchmark).

I'm not sure many people have the patience to let that process work itself out, and it is really hard to control the teacher pay variable as the only one given all the other things that change in a school system.

I hear ya but it beats the alternative. And i think in the meantime it sends an important message that these people are valued

 

[Cortez88]

Harvard, Yale, Columbia, & Princeton
(gap)
Cornell, Brown (for undergrads, not much of a grad program)
(gap)
Dartmouth, Penn


Penn has a better grad program than many of the others, I'll give you that.

Wharton alone boosts it up the list.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I hear ya but it beats the alternative. And i think in the meantime it sends an important message that these people are valued

I"m fine with increasing pay, but turn teaching into a true profession: no more summer vacations, spring breaks, 2-3 weeks off for Christmas, etc. When kids are off school, teachers are training, full-time, honing their teaching skills in the subjects that matter and learning methodologies, doing dry runs, etc.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I"m fine with increasing pay, but turn teaching into a true profession: no more summer vacations, spring breaks, 2-3 weeks off for Christmas, etc. When kids are off school, teachers are training, full-time, honing their teaching skills in the subjects that matter and learning methodologies, doing dry runs, etc.

My stoker is friends with a lot of teachers and I think they are already doing that. I don't think they get as much time off as we think. And to be fair the pay is still shit.

 

[outside shooter]

Wharton alone boosts it up the list.

yes, my list mostly applies to undergrads.

Penn has some great graduate programs, as does Cornell. But Brown, Dartmouth, and to some extent Princeton are focused on the undergrad experience. Graduate students are second fiddle even at Yale.

 

[Cortez88]

yes, my list mostly applies to undergrads.

Penn has some great graduate programs, as does Cornell. But Brown, Dartmouth, and to some extent Princeton are focused on the undergrad experience. Graduate students are second fiddle even at Yale.

Wharton is also an undergrad school. Wharton undergrads largely don’t need an MBA.

 

[outside shooter]

Wharton is also an undergrad school. Wharton undergrads largely don’t need an MBA.

My bad. I'm a science guy and I'm not so much into the business mindset.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I"m fine with increasing pay, but turn teaching into a true profession: no more summer vacations, spring breaks, 2-3 weeks off for Christmas, etc. When kids are off school, teachers are training, full-time, honing their teaching skills in the subjects that matter and learning methodologies, doing dry runs, etc.

My stoker taught Jr, High for 20 years. I think your post assumes a life of a teacher that isn’t reality.

She taught Language Arts and Lit. Weekends off? Forget it. Paper grading was always part of the agenda. Language Arts isn’t math or other subjects that are true false or multiple choice. You read stuff and grade it.

Wanna sit down for a cup of coffee during the day? For get it. Wanna take a leak? Better plan for it. Eat a decent lunch? Ha.

There is no way To go for a walk to think about a problem. Wanna have classroom extra material. Use your own credit card. A paid staff to take care of busy work? Think again. Having an off day and don’t wanna be in front of 25-30 kids? TS.

Sick kids? Good luck finding a way to go home in the middle of the day.

I have no problem with teacher down time during breaks as is. Most, if not all states have CE requirements anyway so breaks aren’t all they are cracked up to be.

Yeah, there are advantages, generally having to do with a schedule that coincides with family life. Attorneys don’t have that ability. But if an attorney wants to have a quiet cup of coffee during the day, we could do that.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I think this is interesting. Stl City has had a mass exodus largely owing to crime and poor schools. Now the city school district is set to bump teachers' salaries. They will now be the second highest paid teachers in the area, only behind Clayton, which is probably the best school district in the state. I'm excited to read this and will be interested to see if this attracts better teachers and elevates the district. Teacher pay seems to me the simplest way to improve a district

Pay may help, then again, you have to weigh the headaches that come with that pay.

 

[GooglyMooglyWooglyBoogly]

Wharton is also an undergrad school. Wharton undergrads largely don’t need an MBA.

No daylight between a Kelley and a Wharton, except the Kelley is less likely to carry around an undeserved sense of superiority.

JB produces good stuff, but his racial politics has always sucked.

There is no valor in celebrating the vices of the founders. The founders legacy is a moral civil order that was a first in the world experiment. Yeah, for different reasons, not everyone had access, but we constantly struggled to change that and made astounding progress. Thanks to the civil order of the founders’ bequest. Then along came the black racists of the late 20th and 21st centuries who trade on ignoring prigress and reacting like the original slavery and bigotry is still here. They struggle mightily to recognize the vices of the people of the past as if that provides a way forward. Higher Ed bought the argument. What could be the purpose of Burns talking about Franklin’s vices in the context of solving todays problems? There isn’t any. It’s only a matter fir the dust bin of history. It’s not relevant.

My shot at Burns was a cheap one, he is obviously an outstanding documentarian and he does leave his aggravating personal politics at the doorstep in most of his work. He also gave some good pieces of advice, have kids, read books (real books) because they’re still the greatest knowledge tool that has ever been invented.

The most striking thing was the ideological homogeneity and the insulated, self sustaining ecosystem these academics have built for themselves. It seemed like half the graduates were going back to work for the University or chase another degree. The continual back patting for persevering through Covid and the campus wide vaccination rate was appalling. You are not brave for opening a laptop in your pajamas. If no one told you what year it was you could’ve believed you were attending a graduation in 1963. Everyone believed they were on the forefront of some sort of civil rights movement.

 

[Cortez88]

No daylight between a Kelley and a Wharton, except the Kelley is less likely to carry around an undeserved sense of superiority.

My shot at Burns was a cheap one, he is obviously an outstanding documentarian and he does leave his aggravating personal politics at the doorstep in most of his work. He also gave some good pieces of advice, have kids, read books (real books) because they’re still the greatest knowledge tool that has ever been invented.

The most striking thing was the ideological homogeneity and the insulated, self sustaining ecosystem these academics have built for themselves. It seemed like half the graduates were going back to work for the University or chase another degree. The continual back patting for persevering through Covid and the campus wide vaccination rate was appalling. You are not brave for opening a laptop in your pajamas. If no one told you what year it was you could’ve believed you were attending a graduation in 1963. Everyone believed they were on the forefront of some sort of civil rights movement.

Man you really figured out a lot of stuff in your one day on campus.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

My stoker is friends with a lot of teachers and I think they are already doing that. I don't think they get as much time off as we think. And to be fair the pay is still shit.

It depends on where you teach, what grade, and it obviously varies a lot among teachers. Teachers in Chicago suburbs, for example, do very well for themselves. But saying that causes higher test scores or better behaved kids? I think all the data shows that the #1 indicator for that is the parents' socioeconomic status.

My wish: make it a full-time, full-year job. Bulk up the training. Rehaul Schools of Education too while you're at it. Demand results--through standardized testing of TEACHERS and through results in kids, surveys from parents, etc. Bump up the pay dramatically and try to attract really smart, neurotic, workhorses to go into the field. Have education compete with law (we have too many lawyers anyway) for talent. Education is worth it. (No, I don't know how to pay for it. Maybe cut the defense budget by 25% and quit getting into armed conflicts across the globe. Maybe institute a statewide lawyer tax to disincentive legal training and incentivize teaching. Also need to equalize the pay scale across districts and fund schools through a statewide system, not a local taxing scheme).

My mother taught for 40+ years. My wife taught for 3 years in inner-city schools, two for Chicago Public Schools. I'm not saying my wife and mother were the greatest teachers in the world, but they were hardly hard workers. And the stories they told of the bad teachers? Wow.

On average, it looks like teachers contract for 180-190 days a year out of 365. In true professions--law, medicine, farming--can you imagine working only 180-190 days? Hell, can you imagine working 180-190 days as an Amazon warehouse worker? (Example citation to back up the days: https://www.teachercontracts.conncan.org/trends/days-teachers-work )

Some teachers work more than that--just like some doctors, lawyers, etc. work more than their peers. Some work less--just like some doctors, lawyers, etc. I'm all for paying the teachers who work their butts off more, and the ones who do not, less. But--sorry Bulk, it's true--the teacher's union will absolutely NOT let that happen.

Here's one economist's take on the question of whether teachers work long hours and their pay:

Do teachers work long hours? | Brookings

Are teachers' average work hours longer than others in different occupations?

www.brookings.edu

The conclusion (his words, not mine):

"Given that we have an answer to the original question, let me tell you why to an economist the question isn’t all that interesting. Asking about the number of hours a job requires, or necessary degrees, or other sorts of qualifications and abilities of employees is interesting but not dispositive. Some jobs are especially rewarding (say, working with kids); and some jobs are especially stressful (say, working with kids). The bottom line on deciding on compensation is whether you’re paying enough to get a sufficiently large supply of sufficiently good employees. In other words, if you think we have more great teachers than we need you should be okay with lower compensation rates. Contrariwise, if you think we need more great teachers than we have on board then you should want to raise salaries. That’s how a market system works—you get what you pay for."

 

[Courtsensetwo]

This one is probably a bit of a nothing burger. Honestly. Honors English - whatever the hell that is - won’t be offered but neither will remedial English. AP classes are still available per the article. The kids that were in remedial English had 88% proficiency which tells me they don’t need remedial English at scale. So, get those kids out of remedial and into normal and you might raise the overall class level naturally. Honors is available as a project but AP remains separate - as AP actually provides tangible benefit to kids.

The net result will be dumbed down AP to accommodate the typical Honors student and GenPop will be dumbed down to accommodate remedial level students.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Maybe, but not in place of honors classes. At least here, I'm seeing a lot more kids who were in "honors" classes taking AP classes rather than dual enrollment college classes (which typically seem to be community college/JC classes or online classes.) Maybe it's different where you are, but that's what we're seeing.

Doing your due diligence and choosing the right schools are more important than ever. An honors student at many schools is genpop at better schools. Classroom behavior is the other key element...pretty bad most places.

 

[mcmurtry66]

It depends on where you teach, what grade, and it obviously varies a lot among teachers. Teachers in Chicago suburbs, for example, do very well for themselves. But saying that causes higher test scores or better behaved kids? I think all the data shows that the #1 indicator for that is the parents' socioeconomic status.

My wish: make it a full-time, full-year job. Bulk up the training. Rehaul Schools of Education too while you're at it. Demand results--through standardized testing of TEACHERS and through results in kids, surveys from parents, etc. Bump up the pay dramatically and try to attract really smart, neurotic, workhorses to go into the field. Have education compete with law (we have too many lawyers anyway) for talent. Education is worth it. (No, I don't know how to pay for it. Maybe cut the defense budget by 25% and quit getting into armed conflicts across the globe. Maybe institute a statewide lawyer tax to disincentive legal training and incentivize teaching. Also need to equalize the pay scale across districts and fund schools through a statewide system, not a local taxing scheme).

My mother taught for 40+ years. My wife taught for 3 years in inner-city schools, two for Chicago Public Schools. I'm not saying my wife and mother were the greatest teachers in the world, but they were hardly hard workers. And the stories they told of the bad teachers? Wow.

On average, it looks like teachers contract for 180-190 days a year out of 365. In true professions--law, medicine, farming--can you imagine working only 180-190 days? Hell, can you imagine working 180-190 days as an Amazon warehouse worker? (Example citation to back up the days: https://www.teachercontracts.conncan.org/trends/days-teachers-work )

Some teachers work more than that--just like some doctors, lawyers, etc. work more than their peers. Some work less--just like some doctors, lawyers, etc. I'm all for paying the teachers who work their butts off more, and the ones who do not, less. But--sorry Bulk, it's true--the teacher's union will absolutely NOT let that happen.

Here's one economist's take on the question of whether teachers work long hours and their pay:

Do teachers work long hours? | Brookings

Are teachers' average work hours longer than others in different occupations?

www.brookings.edu

The conclusion (his words, not mine):

"Given that we have an answer to the original question, let me tell you why to an economist the question isn’t all that interesting. Asking about the number of hours a job requires, or necessary degrees, or other sorts of qualifications and abilities of employees is interesting but not dispositive. Some jobs are especially rewarding (say, working with kids); and some jobs are especially stressful (say, working with kids). The bottom line on deciding on compensation is whether you’re paying enough to get a sufficiently large supply of sufficiently good employees. In other words, if you think we have more great teachers than we need you should be okay with lower compensation rates. Contrariwise, if you think we need more great teachers than we have on board then you should want to raise salaries. That’s how a market system works—you get what you pay for."

You don't need a lawyer tax. Make all prospective law students interview 3 lawyers who have practiced at least ten years before sitting for the lsat. There will be a shortage of lawyers

 

[Courtsensetwo]

No you just believe a lie. Go live with it suits you well. Every f*cking pub I know in Carmel BELIEVES the election was stolen. You all live in a bubble and its called the little deluded world of the WC.

Tell us you have few friends in car-mel by the corn and the ones you do have are dumbasses without telling us that you have few friends in car-mel by the water tank and the ones you do have are dumbasses.

 

[Indianaftw]

Tell us you have few friends in car-mel by the corn and the ones you do have are dumbasses without telling us that you have few friends in car-mel by the water tank and the ones you do have are dumbasses.

Ohh looky who's back. You get that 5th booster yet Court? You get those young kids all vaxed up you irresponsible waste of human flesh? Pucker up big boy the monkeypox vax is next. Bet you can't wait.

People around here aren't dumbasses. They knew all the shit you guys bought was a lie and now it's all come out. It was. The left...the lying, dripping with satanic corrupt left. Hope you are prepared court coz as long as you're in office hell is getting closer. Feel that heat little beeyaahyatch.

I think I saw you out by yourself today in your prius with your mask on and a Brandon tattoo on your forehead.

 

[Lucy01]

Ohh looky who's back. You get that 5th booster yet Court? You get those young kids all vaxed up you irresponsible waste of human flesh? Pucker up big boy the monkeypox vax is next. Bet you can't wait.

People around here aren't dumbasses. They knew all the shit you guys bought was a lie and now it's all come out. It was. The left...the lying, dripping with satanic corrupt left. Hope you are prepared court coz as long as you're in office hell is getting closer. Feel that heat little beeyaahyatch.

I think I saw you out by yourself today in your prius with your mask on and a Brandon tattoo on your forehead.

👏👏👏👏👏

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Ohh looky who's back. You get that 5th booster yet Court? You get those young kids all vaxed up you irresponsible waste of human flesh? Pucker up big boy the monkeypox vax is next. Bet you can't wait.

People around here aren't dumbasses. They knew all the shit you guys bought was a lie and now it's all come out. It was. The left...the lying, dripping with satanic corrupt left. Hope you are prepared court coz as long as you're in office hell is getting closer. Feel that heat little beeyaahyatch.

I think I saw you out by yourself today in your prius with your mask on and a Brandon tattoo on your forehead.

You seem bitter

 

[Lucy01]

You seem bitter

No, he’s not bitter. He can’t tolerate stupidity!

 

[NPT]

There will be a shortage of lawyers

That's a good thing isn't? Maybe a law should be passed that for every car Japan and Korea export to the US they have to take a lawyer back to their country. 😂🤣

 

[Cortez88]

That's a good thing isn't? Maybe a law should be passed that for every car Japan and Korea export to the US they have to take a lawyer back to their country. 😂🤣

Wait just a minute. Hyundai currently has exploding seat belts, which I still don’t know how that’s possible. Anyway, we will need someone to sue them for these attack belts.

 

[NPT]

On average, it looks like teachers contract for 180-190 days a year out of 365. In true professions--law, medicine, farming--can you imagine working only 180-190 days? Hell, can you imagine working 180-190 days as an Amazon warehouse worker?

Even in my last years where I got a lot of vacation I was scheduled to work 225 days and it was expected that I'd work 10% more (no pay... was on salary)

 

[Courtsensetwo]

No, he’s not bitter. He can’t tolerate stupidity!

No, he seems bitter

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Harvard, Yale, Columbia, & Princeton
(gap)
Cornell, Brown (for undergrads, not much of a grad program)
(gap)
Dartmouth, Penn


Penn has a better grad program than many of the others, I'll give you that.

In no universe is Penn worse than Columbia, Cornell or Brown and nowhere is Columbia on par with HYP.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

In no universe is Penn worse than Columbia, Cornell or Brown and nowhere is Columbia on par with HYP.

According to US News, Columbia is tied for #2 with Harvard and MIT. Yale is #5. Penn #8.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

No daylight between a Kelley and a Wharton, except the Kelley is less likely to carry around an undeserved sense of superiority.

That's a bit bias of a take, even for this board.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

According to US News, Columbia is tied for #2 with Harvard and MIT. Yale is #5. Penn #8.

Columbia must have really thrown some cash at US News.

Or perhaps it just gamed the system:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/03/23/columbia-usnews-rankings-college-methodology/

Pardon me for laughing at a list with Stanford at #6.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Columbia must have really thrown some cash at US News.

Or perhaps it just gamed the system:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/03/23/columbia-usnews-rankings-college-methodology/

Pardon me for laughing at a list with Stanford at #6.

*Shrug* I don't think anything on that list should be taken all that seriously, anyway.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

*Shrug* I don't think anything on that list should be taken all that seriously, anyway.

Probably not. It's always been HYP and the rest in terms of recruiting.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Harvard, Yale, Columbia, & Princeton
(gap)
Cornell, Brown (for undergrads, not much of a grad program)
(gap)
Dartmouth, Penn


Penn has a better grad program than many of the others, I'll give you that.

More about reputation that they work hard on, than substance.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Don’t feel like arguing with you. One thing seems certain. If a child is keeping the rest of the class from learning something has to change. Or maybe not.

In most classrooms it is more than one child and in almost every case the Administration will not back the teacher in getting them out. "Deal with them effectively" at the expense of everyone else.

We chose very carefully including in-class observation.

 

[stollcpa]

In most classrooms it is more than one child and in almost every case the Administration will not back the teacher in getting them out. "Deal with them effectively" at the expense of everyone else.

We chose very carefully including in-class observation.

You’re exactly right.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

You’re exactly right.

Are we talking about kids who are acting up because they are spoiled jerks, or kids who have an IEP which includes autism, OHI, ADHD, etc?

The first is easily handled.
The second takes time and money (staffing, resources, training, and so on)...something that many conservatives cry about because TAXES!

 

[GuyDatHoo]

Gimme Stanford, MIT, UChicago over any three the Ivy’s can cobble together. They’re relics from the gilded age.

 

[stollcpa]

Are we talking about kids who are acting up because they are spoiled jerks, or kids who have an IEP which includes autism, OHI, ADHD, etc?

The first is easily handled.
The second takes time and money (staffing, resources, training, and so on)...something that many conservatives cry about because TAXES!

I am talking about mentally challenged kids. In my daughter in laws case it’s one mentally challenged kid that’s being very disruptive. I guess the school likes how she handles the kids because because she seems to have at least one each year.

It seems at a certain point the kids cannot be in regular classes.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

I am talking about mentally challenged kids. In my daughter in laws case it’s one mentally challenged kid that’s being very disruptive. I guess the school likes how she handles the kids because because she seems to have at least one each year.

It seems at a certain point the kids cannot be in regular classes.

1. If your DIL is good with the kid, of course she will get more. That's the consequences of competency.
2. Kids in regular classes are up to the Case Conference Committee. Special Education Advocates are tough when it comes to making sure schools follow the law, and ensuring that students are in the LRE (least restrictive environment) and are following FAPE (free appropriate public education) that they are entitled to. Of course, any parent worth their salt is knowledgeable of all this, too.
3. Of course, all this costs money. You can't do all this and train and arm teachers, too. Make a choice.