OT: I won't hire men because they don't look like me... or something like that.

[brianiu]

This is 2019, not 1964. Discrimination by statements like Muffet's is 1964. She is taking a major step backward, she claims to be fighting against discrimation against women and then openly says she will blatantly discriminare against men. I don't see how Muffet's statement is not buried in 1950's and before, pre civil rights era. You want to promote hiring women, but then she openly says she will discriminate against men. Two wrongs don't make a right. My daughter would play for anyone but Muffet.

Could you please share your feelings on the lack of female coaches in division 1 men’s basketball? If you are truly concerned about gender discrimination that is by far the larger issue

Did you ask your daughter or are you projecting your beliefs onto her?

 

[ufo33]

Could you please share your feelings on the lack of female coaches in division 1 men’s basketball? If you are truly concerned about gender discrimination that is by far the larger issue

Did you ask your daughter or are you projecting your beliefs onto her?

This has nothing to do with lack of women or nens coaches. It has everyhing to do with Muffet saying she will not hire a man. If you want to make or influence change, you don't discriminate against one sex or race to supposedly benefit another. You drop all of the barriers and just hire the best candidates period, men or women. If i said I would not hire a woman elementary teacher because they dont look like me, and there are no male elementary teachers at my school. How would that be received by the public or the news media?

 

[brianiu]

I have never heard a men's head coach make a statement saying he would never hire anyone who doesnt look like him, blatantly saying he would never hire a woman! Because if he did, he would be crucified by the media, social media, and public outcry, and likely lose his job and effectively end his coaching career.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/nba-coach-reportedly-t-hot-193910785.html

Far more inflammatory remarks. Yet didn’t get nearly the media coverage McGraw did.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

I have never heard a men's head coach make a statement saying he would never hire anyone who doesnt look like him, blatantly saying he would never hire a woman! Because if he did, he would be crucified by the media, social media, and public outcry, and likely lose his job and effectively end his coaching career.

So, is your point that it's the saying it aloud, and not the doing it in practice, that is causing you to question her?

 

[brianiu]

This has nothing to do with lack of women or nens coaches. It has everyhing to do with Muffet saying she will not hire a man.

It has everything to do with a lack of female coaches in the men’s game. If you actually read what she said, that is what she was addressing. Are you okay with no female coaches in the men’s game? Are you okay with a male coach saying you can’t have hot female coaches cause the guys will want to f*** her?

 

[VanPastorMan]

Let’s be honest. This thread is indicative of the outage culture that plagues our country. McGraw makes a statement pointing out the lack of opportunity for female coaches in the men’s game relative to the amount of opportunity for male coaches in the women’s game. The reactionaries ignore this and flip the narrative to one of reverse gender discrimination which is ludicrous when you actually look at the number of male coaches in women’s college basketball. I don’t fully agree with McGraw here but I certainly understand. The fact is the number of male assistant coaches she has hired is greater than the number of female assistants hired in the history of NCAA men’s basketball

There is no reverse gender discrimination. There is only gender discrimination.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

I have never heard a men's head coach make a statement saying he would never hire anyone who doesnt look like him, blatantly saying he would never hire a woman! Because if he did, he would be crucified by the media, social media, and public outcry, and likely lose his job and effectively end his coaching career.

Again, I'm not exactly (or entirely) taking her side in this. I have a number of issues with what she said.

But, that said, there is some merit to her gripe. Let me put it this way: no men's college basketball coach *has* to make a statement about not hiring women assistants. Their hiring decisions speak way louder than any words could. How many of them ever have hired a female assistant? Not very many. Does it matter that their policy to hire only men is unspoken and unwritten?

Again, I actually think that coaches should be able to hire whoever they want. If a coach wants to have a policy -- formal or informal -- against hiring men, women, or whatever, then they should be able to. To me, that is one of the essences of liberty -- and I consider myself a (small L) libertarian. You just seem to be having a problem with who "can" say these things and who "can't". And I get that -- I think political correctness is a social menace. But, again, her point is that she's only pledging to follow the lead of the men's coaches, right? I don't think her intention is to actually swear off male assistants. It's to prove a point about double standards.

 

[brianiu]

There is no reverse gender discrimination. There is only gender discrimination.

https://employment.findlaw.com/employment-discrimination/reverse-discrimination.html

 

[VanPastorMan]

She looks like the butch of a relationship so it wouldn’t be too hard to find a man that looks like her. She talks about how women need their opportunity, they already have an nfl referee that’s more than enough. Let’s be honest, nobody cares about women’s basketball except for maybe 4 schools. What was the last WNBA game you went to? I get she wants equal opportunity but, you aren’t going to find many men that will run through a wall for a female coach.

I've only been to one NBA game and have never been to a WNBA game. But I have watched WNBA basketball on tv. I got interested in the players because of the Olympics.

 

[VanPastorMan]

https://employment.findlaw.com/employment-discrimination/reverse-discrimination.html

I don't buy it. We are all equal under the law so theoretically there is no advantage group. There are those who push the idea that there is but they push it for political advantage. If a black man hates a white man because he is white then that is racism. It's not reverse racism. The term reverse racism makes it appear that their racism is not normal or perhaps it is not as egregious. The same goes with discrimination. It doesn't matter who is doing it. It's discrimination.
One thing I would like to know is how many female coaches apply for jobs with male teams? It would be an interesting thing to know because I have never heard of a woman coach even trying to coach men.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/nba-coach-reportedly-t-hot-193910785.html

Far more inflammatory remarks. Yet didn’t get nearly the media coverage McGraw did.

"You can’t have a hot woman in the NBA,” says one veteran NBA coach. “Guys will be trying to f— her every day.”
​

Oof. Let me get it on record that I strongly disagree that Becky Hammon (or any other woman) should be precluded from having a job in the NBA just because of...well...what this coach said.

But I'm also under no illusion that there's truth to his premise. Again, that burden most certainly should not fall on her. It should only fall on anybody who might make unwanted advances on her. So, if her presence would become a problem for some of the players, it's their problem...not hers.

But we're never going to be able to make a law or policy that eradicates, er, fraternization -- be it in a workplace or on a basketball team. Human nature is undefeated.

 

[ufo33]

It has everything to do with a lack of female coaches in the men’s game. If you actually read what she said, that is what she was addressing. Are you okay with no female coaches in the men’s game? Are you okay with a male coach saying you can’t have hot female coaches cause the guys will want to f*** her?

That is a different discussion.
What did Muffet say? She's not coaching in the NBA.

 

[brianiu]

That is a different discussion.
What did Muffet say? She's not coaching in the NBA.

It was in response to you saying you never heard a man say he wouldn’t hire a female coach. And it is not a different discussion. This thread is about McGraw’s comments, which if you actually read them, are about the lack of women’s coaches in men’s college basketball.

I find it odd you are so quick to decry McGraw’s comments but refuse to take a stance on the lack of female coaches in the men’s game.

 

[ufo33]

Again, I'm not exactly (or entirely) taking her side in this. I have a number of issues with what she said.

But, that said, there is some merit to her gripe. Let me put it this way: no men's college basketball coach *has* to make a statement about not hiring women assistants. Their hiring decisions speak way louder than any words could. How many of them ever have hired a female assistant? Not very many. Does it matter that their policy to hire only men is unspoken and unwritten?

Again, I actually think that coaches should be able to hire whoever they want. If a coach wants to have a policy -- formal or informal -- against hiring men, women, or whatever, then they should be able to. To me, that is one of the essences of liberty -- and I consider myself a (small L) libertarian. You just seem to be having a problem with who "can" say these things and who "can't". And I get that -- I think political correctness is a social menace. But, again, her point is that she's only pledging to follow the lead of the men's coaches, right? I don't think her intention is to actually swear off male assistants. It's to prove a point about double standards.

You are backtracking.
It has nothing to do with the number of women coaches.
Its her ability as woman to say a blantantly sexist statement, but you are saying its ok, because she is a woman. If a man made that statement he would lose his job. Period. Political Correctness makes right now wrong, and wrong now right, depending on who says it.

 

[ufo33]

It was in response to you saying you never heard a man say he wouldn’t hire a female coach. And it is not a different discussion. This thread is about McGraw’s comments, which if you actually read them, are about the lack of women’s coaches in men’s college basketball.

I find it odd you are so quick to decry McGraw’s comments but refuse to take a stance on the lack of female coaches in the men’s game.

Political double-speak.
Muffet said would not hire a man.
That is the issue.

 

[brianiu]

Political double-speak.
Muffet said would not hire a man.
That is the issue.

That is the issue from your narrow perspective. The real issue is what she was actually talking about, which is the lack of female coaches in the men’s game

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

You are backtracking.
It has nothing to do with the number of women coaches.
Its her ability as woman to say a blantantly sexist statement, but you are saying its ok, because she is a woman. If a man made that statement he would lose his job. Period. Political Correctness makes right now wrong, and wrong now right, depending on who says it.

Well, first, I didn't say what she said was OK -- because she's a woman or otherwise. I think her entire point here is that it's wrong to discriminate against a coaching candidate because of their gender. I don't think her aim is to exclude male coaches from the Notre Dame Women's Basketball program. Can you really not see that?

Once again, I'm not even really sure I agree with her. I just think people should hire the best coaches they can -- I've never been one to bean-count people by gender or race or whatever. I don't think anybody should be excluded because of their race, gender, etc. But I also don't think that diversity of these kinds is something that should come about by external force.

I just think you're going out of your way to miss her point.

 

[indy1203]

If Bob Knight or Archie had said what Muffet said, the media would be in an uproar. Reverse discrimination is still discrimination. You hire the best candidate, man or woman, it does not matter.

University Physics Dept. Chairman: Well, we have this guy named
Einstein but I think we need to diversify.

 

[ufo33]

It was in response to you saying you never heard a man say he wouldn’t hire a female coach. And it is not a different discussion. This thread is about McGraw’s comments, which if you actually read them, are about the lack of women’s coaches in men’s college basketball.

I find it odd you are so quick to decry McGraw’s comments but refuse to take a stance on the lack of female coaches in the men’s game.

I don't care about the number of men or women coaches.
I care that a woman can make a sexist statement that a man can not make.
The Double Standard in what we can or can't say is the issue.

 

[ufo33]

Well, first, I didn't say what she said was OK -- because she's a woman or otherwise. I think her entire point here is that it's wrong to discriminate against a coaching candidate because of their gender. I don't think her aim is to exclude male coaches from the Notre Dame Women's Basketball program. Can you really not see that?

Once again, I'm not even really sure I agree with her. I just think people should hire the best coaches they can -- I've never been one to bean-count people by gender or race or whatever. I don't think anybody should be excluded because of their race, gender, etc. But I also don't think that diversity of these kinds is something that should come about by external force.

I just think you're going out of your way to miss her point.

You are going out of the way to miss her blatant sexist statement.
I don't care about her point.
By being discriminatory herself, that is somehow supposed to fix being discriminatory.
She is defeating her own cause with her own sexist statement.
She is proving by her own actions and statement that she herself is guilty of what she is fighting against.
She defeats her own purpose with her statement.

 

[ufo33]

So, is your point that it's the saying it aloud, and not the doing it in practice, that is causing you to question her?

Yes that is the issue.
No context behind her statement is needed.
Her statement by itself is discriminatory.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Yes that is the issue.
No context behind her statement is needed.
Her statment by itself is discriminatory.

Got it. I was just trying to clarify. For further clarification, if she never hired a man, it was unspoken (but known) why she never hired a man, and there were obviously better qualified men who applied but passed over, you would not have an issue? What if a man complained that he was the victim of discriminatory hiring practices and that's why he was passed over? If it was not said, would you tell him to toughen up buttercup?

 

[hgdownunder]

Muffet apparently....

And has there ever been a men’s team with a woman as a coach? It sure counts the other way.

 

[hgdownunder]

University Physics Dept. Chairman: Well, we have this guy named
Einstein but I think we need to diversify.

At the time he was making his great discoveries, Einstein would have been a diversity hire.

 

[ufo33]

Got it. I was just trying to clarify. For further clarification, if she never hired a man, it was unspoken (but known) why she never hired a man, and there were obviously better qualified men who applied but passed over, you would not have an issue? What if a man complained that he was the victim of discriminatory hiring practices and that's why he was passed over? If it was not said, would you tell him to toughen up buttercup?

Correct. If its not said. Then no problem. You have no idea what the hiring practices are. Muffet talks too much, she incriminated herself. She torpedoed her own cause by saying and doing exactly what she said was wrong.

 

[ufo33]

Got it. I was just trying to clarify. For further clarification, if she never hired a man, it was unspoken (but known) why she never hired a man, and there were obviously better qualified men who applied but passed over, you would not have an issue? What if a man complained that he was the victim of discriminatory hiring practices and that's why he was passed over? If it was not said, would you tell him to toughen up buttercup?

Yes. Toughen up Buttercup. Move on to the next job opportunity.

 

[ufo33]

At the time he was making his great discoveries, Einstein would have been a diversity hire.

Einstein would be another Male to avoid hiring per Muffet.

 

[brianiu]

Correct. If its not said. Then no problem. You have no idea what the hiring practices are. Muffet talks too much, she incriminated herself. She torpedoed her own cause by saying and doing exactly what she said was wrong.

So you are okay with discrimination as long as it isn’t talked about?

 

[ufo33]

So you are okay with discrimination as long as it isn’t talked about?

Its not discrimination if there is no statement like Muffet's stating that I am discriminating on purpose and you can't do anything about it. If you make no statement, it implies this in 2019. we have moved on and are hiring the best candidates based on their qualifications.

 

[iubud]

I agree with this. But, then, I've never really been one to automatically think that discrimination is, in any and all circumstances, an evil thing.

The word carries a connotation that conjures up bad memories of such things as the Woolworth's lunch counter in Greensboro and Rosa Parks. But it actually has a much broader meaning. After all, basketball coaches (and GMs) at all levels pretty much universally discriminate against short people -- the average height of players in college and pro basketball is much taller than the average height of the general population. And so what? They've figured out that taller people tend to make better basketball players.

If Muffet wants to discriminate against male assistants (whatever her reasoning), more power to her. I think she should be able to do that.

But I would also say, as an employer myself, that hiring practices which discriminate based on race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc. are almost always a bad idea -- questions of legality aside. Why put self-imposed limitations on your pool of available talent? And, yes, I'd say the same thing to men's head coaches.

Just anecdotally for myself, and keeping with sports, the single best golf teacher I ever had was a woman. I got way more out of her lessons than I did from any of the male teachers I've had. If I had a policy of saying that I'd only take lessons from male teachers, then I'd have never had the benefit of her teaching. And how would that serve my specific interest of being a better golfer?

My daughter played volleyball for a female coach and basketball for a male staff. Most volleyball coaches in our area are female. We don't have male volleyball teams so it is more likely that a female will be a better coach of a game they played. I would rather have someone that played in something other than a rec league or intramural league as a coach.

Basketball is different. The game is a little different but still basketball. My daughter played for a male staff. There is nothing stopping a female staff coaching a boys team

Female coaches for men's basketball are rare. There should be no reason Pat Summit couldn't have coached the men's team. wWy don't women coach men's teams? Gender discrimination is the biggest reason. The other reason is there are probably more men coaches applying for those positions and most making a hiring decision would see no advantage to hiring a women with everything being equal. Prior coaching of a men's team would be considered and it would be extremely rare .to find a woman with experience.

Until you regularly see women in the staff of men's programs, I see no problem with a Women's coach hiring all women. I think it is a good thing that maybe this statement causes someone to start looking at women coaches for men's team. Who is the first D1 program to hire a female head coach?

 

[brianiu]

Its not discrimination if there is no statement like Muffet's stating that I am discriminating on purpose and you can't do anything about it. If you make no statement, it implies this in 2019. we have moved on and are hiring the best candidates based on their qualifications.

This makes no sense. Discrimination isn’t determined exclusively by words. From dictionary.com

— noun

1. an act or instance of discriminating, or of making a distinction.
2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
3. the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination.

 

[T.M.P.]

what a dumb thread .

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

My daughter played volleyball for a female coach and basketball for a male staff. Most volleyball coaches in our area are female. We don't have male volleyball teams so it is more likely that a female will be a better coach of a game they played. I would rather have someone that played in something other than a rec league or intramural league as a coach.

Basketball is different. The game is a little different but still basketball. My daughter played for a male staff. There is nothing stopping a female staff coaching a boys team

Female coaches for men's basketball are rare. There should be no reason Pat Summit couldn't have coached the men's team. wWy don't women coach men's teams? Gender discrimination is the biggest reason. The other reason is there are probably more men coaches applying for those positions and most making a hiring decision would see no advantage to hiring a women with everything being equal. Prior coaching of a men's team would be considered and it would be extremely rare .to find a woman with experience.

Until you regularly see women in the staff of men's programs, I see no problem with a Women's coach hiring all women. I think it is a good thing that maybe this statement causes someone to start looking at women coaches for men's team. Who is the first D1 program to hire a female head coach?

I don’t know about head coach. But Maine has a female assistant: former WNBA player Edniesha Curry.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Einstein would be another Male to avoid hiring per Muffet.

Did Einstein prefer motion offense?

 

[snarlcakes]

I wish your wives would have written you guys longer honey do lists so you wouldn’t have the time to post. That is sexism we can all hope for.

 

[hgdownunder]

Einstein would be another Male to avoid hiring per Muffet.

I can’t imagine he’d be much of an assistant coach, to be truthful

 

[ufo33]

I wish your wives would have written you guys longer honey do lists so you wouldn’t have the time to post. That is sexism we can all hope for.

This makes no sense. Discrimination isn’t determined exclusively by words. From dictionary.com

— noun

1. an act or instance of discriminating, or of making a distinction.
2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
3. the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination.

So any words of discrimination are not discrimination. You can throw your dictionary away. That makes no sense. So anybody call anybody any name they want? Wow. Reaching for straws now.

 

[ufo33]

My daughter played volleyball for a female coach and basketball for a male staff. Most volleyball coaches in our area are female. We don't have male volleyball teams so it is more likely that a female will be a better coach of a game they played. I would rather have someone that played in something other than a rec league or intramural league as a coach.

Basketball is different. The game is a little different but still basketball. My daughter played for a male staff. There is nothing stopping a female staff coaching a boys team

Female coaches for men's basketball are rare. There should be no reason Pat Summit couldn't have coached the men's team. wWy don't women coach men's teams? Gender discrimination is the biggest reason. The other reason is there are probably more men coaches applying for those positions and most making a hiring decision would see no advantage to hiring a women with everything being equal. Prior coaching of a men's team would be considered and it would be extremely rare .to find a woman with experience.

Until you regularly see women in the staff of men's programs, I see no problem with a Women's coach hiring all women. I think it is a good thing that maybe this statement causes someone to start looking at women coaches for men's team. Who is the first D1 program to hire a female head coach?

A mens Locker Room is the issue.

 

[ufo33]

This makes no sense. Discrimination isn’t determined exclusively by words. From dictionary.com

— noun

1. an act or instance of discriminating, or of making a distinction.
2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
3. the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination.

Muffet also explained that she is practicing what she preached. So no men on her staff, on purpose, by her own admission, by her own self described discriminatory policy.

 

[ufo33]

I can’t imagine he’d be much of an assistant coach, to be truthful

Al could quickly calculate the correct launch angle on jump shots.