My current take on Woody...version 173 or so...
- Thread starter IUNorth
- Start date
Unless Dolson is trusted enough to just get rubber stamp treatment...any group of critical thinkers would raise many of the same questions we all have had about that raise.
Maybe he does have that trust? Maybe Buckner's role made it much easier?
I just know how raises are usually scrutinized in my profession, and I can't fathom getting Woody's pushed through on merit alone. There would have had to be some sort of position change involved, elevating the role of HC to a higher spot in the org chart, revenue sharing of some sort...etc...
Very possible its handled differently for them though, obviously.
I don't know how they work either but Dolson is in charge of the organization that earns the money that pays the coaches. They may just defer to his judgement as long as the money is there. Athletics is a separate self-sustaining enterprise, Woodson's salary doesn't come out of tuition or foundation money.
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More than any other IU team, this reminds me of the Noah Vonleh season.
just as with Beard and Drew, it doesn’t matter what the overall fanbase thinks about Pearl, either as a coach or as a person.
What would matter is what the AD, the President, and the Trustees think. And if Pat Fitzgerald was (allegedly) ruled out for football, I’d be surprised if any of those three BB coaches got much consideration either, regardless of how much that might frustrate part if not most of the fanbase.
I’ve got a feeling that those who want a proven coach next time around may need to expand their definition of who is actually a “proven” coach or they might end up disappointed again.
Well, not sure anybody thought he was a long term solution. I think his first two years were positive and helped establish IU again to a certain point. At least make us relevant again, but clearly a step back this year. If his tenure ended at the end of the year, I would say we are better off overall from having him as our coach. If he comes back another year and shits the bed, it probably becomes a wash and was wasted time.
Next year is the key, with or without him. And if we are moving on, we had better not do it for another “might” be a great coach at IU. We had better have a top 5-10 coach lined up.
Not at all when the head of the board is an aggressively ardent supporter of the coach.
Actually athletics have been taking infusions from the university for some time and the IU foundation gifted them $38 million for the pandemic period. CMW’s salary is reported in the State Budget report along with other employees. Dolson reports to the prez who reports to the board and can’t imagine that he would give a coach a $1 mil raise in a vacuum.
Part of my wariness to part ways with him this year. Even the guys I’ve said are can’t miss guys, Matta and Beard, aren’t exactly setting the world on fire lately. With both of those guys, specifically, I think you trust their overall body of work, and either would be worth that risk. But I would not make that move for May, Schertz, etc…
After the first two years, I thought much like Dolson. Woody had a marginal first year due to injuries. Last year was a step up in the BT. Woody had inserted us in national recruiting with who he brought in.
IMO, it wasn't worth an extra MIL and then we have this CF of a year. I was prepared for another step up this year but....
Hindsight is always 20/20.
Dittos. At the beginning of the season I thought we had a shot — unranked but some good talent coming in (though no shooters). Recruiting had a possible megaclass. Like you said not worth a raise but some momentum was in program.
Big picture, in a best case scenario where Woodson returns next season, how do you envision this all plays out over the next 5-10 years? Because to me, if I am the AD, any decision is made with short term in mind, but eyes on the future.
I would expect we could add 5 max. It would be very difficult to bring in multiple players at the same position from the portal.
I arrived at that number thinking the following:
Johnson out of eligibility
Walker out of eligibility
Ware to the NBA
Mgbako tries the G League
Banks to the portal
Gunn to the portal
Not predicting all this, but certainly not unthinkable. We have an open scholarship already and only McNeeley committed. Newton hopefully is 100% for next season.
And I doubt Sparks will stay if they get another center out of the portal. He might think those 2 years at BSU where he was the man were a lot more fun than this.
“Somehow” @ $4 million-plus per year is…kind of expensive
Yep. Lots of talent, nothing to show for it at season’s end.
Best case…
Woodson does make some changes to his style. He does bring in an assistant to help him with building fundamental things in his program. And he gets IU back to the NCAA tournament next year and maybe coaches 1 year after.
Then Woodson retires, and by then someone like May, Schertz, or a different younger coach establishes themselves similarly to what Stevens did at Butler. And the timing works out this time to hire a guy like that.
They inherit an already good and relevant IU program, and take it to the next level. And IU becomes a program like Kansas has been the last 15-20 years.
How does only having Woodson maybe another year or 2 affect recruiting? Does that matter at this point?
Depends on his approach I would say. My “Woody is back isn’t the end of the world” scenario implies he’d change his style of play and his approach. He’s shown an ability to land high level wings and bigs the last couple cycles. And before his style was in question, he got JHS.
I would think if he were able to get a couple good portal guards. And if Newton shows what I think he’ll be capable of showing when healthy… I would think Woodys recruiting will be fine, if not great.
Ha ha. Well… Getting over that hump finally would be something.
Now…does he have any ideas on how to do it? That’s the question.
As much as anything I’ve ever seen posted around here in 20+ years, this thread is telling. If our fanbase is even remotely close to the fervor shown here, next year is going to be a s-storm of biblical proportions. Woody and his merry men of sneakers and crack recruiters better get on a roll reminiscent of 1975. Otherwise, the Woody era will be deemed a colossal failure and he’ll have tarnished his good name beyond repair.
North is trying his damnedest to give a sliver of sunshine in the case of a woody survival. It’s virtually unanimous we aren’t having any of that. Dolson either made a mess in his pants or Buckner forced him to OD on a laxative. Either way, someone has to clean it up.
North is trying his damnedest to give a sliver of sunshine in the case of a woody survival. It’s virtually unanimous we aren’t having any of that. Dolson either made a mess in his pants or Buckner forced him to OD on a laxative. Either way, someone has to clean it up.
AMAZINGLY optimistic but I hope, I pray you have a blueprint here that is followed!
Note that I was asked what I saw as a “best case” by keeping Woody.
Worst case is what is being mostly assumed here on a regular basis.
And I do think versions of the worst case are more likely than my best case.
But I don’t think it’s impossible.
If we all should have learned anything by now…Dolson doesn’t live by this boards consensus timelines. Both his major firings have come earlier than the board consensus.
So if the board consensus is Woody will be fired after this season, safe bet it’ll happen at a different time.
Heck, when RMK was fired it wasn’t even the AD that did the deed. It was the President reporting directly to the Board. Now that would have been a great time for Buckner to head the Trustees.
In any event my expectation (not just conceivable hypotheticals) of next season with MW as coach is that it will be a new stage of musical chairs made possible by however much big NIL donors are willing to continue to throw in the pot. There will be no progress in the long term development of the program to return to national contention.
In any event my expectation (not just conceivable hypotheticals) of next season with MW as coach is that it will be a new stage of musical chairs made possible by however much big NIL donors are willing to continue to throw in the pot. There will be no progress in the long term development of the program to return to national contention.
I am sure there are many fans who will see a tournament appearance, or even making it to the second round, as sufficient performance for MW.
This current debate is pretty much a time warp of the Archie 3rd year debate. Similar arguments and even many of the same people.
This current debate is pretty much a time warp of the Archie 3rd year debate. Similar arguments and even many of the same people.
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2nd Round of NCAA, next year, would have to be seen as a positive after this year...I would think. Obviously how the regular season would go, the seed, etc... would also factor in.
But good points, the inevitability does seem similar to Archie's tenure.
I'm just trying to provide some framework stuff where Woody gets another year or two, and it ends up working out for IU. Because I think its incredibly unlikely he's fired after this year...despite there being a strong case for it.
At his age, he was never a long term hire. Given that, and the available choices of who might replace him, I can see Dolson deciding to wait another year or two, i.e. stick closer to his original expected timeline on needing to replace Woodson, and see how things evolve. Especially if Woodson has indicated to him a willingness to make some changes to address the obvious things.
Good thread, and I’ve seen passing references to what is most on my mind: Building a program versus building a team.
Even in @IUNorth ’s OP, it’s (paraphrased);
Woodson show some desire to change (and follow through on it), bring in some help, load up on the portal, teach some stuff (improve fundamentals) , and voila: We are much better next year. Maybe that buys us two years out of MW, then he can walk away with a smoother transition, leave on his terms, etc.
The assumption is that the program would be much better off at the end of those 2 years than when he took over?
My questions:
A). Is this true? Or, is loading up on the portal just building a team (short term) versus building from the ground up, a program (long term)? In the above scenario who will want to be recruited to play here and help build a program/culture?
B) there’s this idea that we pull the trigger only if we get a can’t miss, elite coach with an established college coaching record. What if that isn’t an option? I don’t need to hear a list of people that fans would like, who is there that would take the job???
Imho, we need to completely overhaul our program, and our culture with an eye towards the future. Clearly MW isn’t any part of that, he’s a bridge at best. But back to “B”, a bridge to what type of program and who?
I think that’s the biggest question.
Even in @IUNorth ’s OP, it’s (paraphrased);
Woodson show some desire to change (and follow through on it), bring in some help, load up on the portal, teach some stuff (improve fundamentals) , and voila: We are much better next year. Maybe that buys us two years out of MW, then he can walk away with a smoother transition, leave on his terms, etc.
The assumption is that the program would be much better off at the end of those 2 years than when he took over?
My questions:
A). Is this true? Or, is loading up on the portal just building a team (short term) versus building from the ground up, a program (long term)? In the above scenario who will want to be recruited to play here and help build a program/culture?
B) there’s this idea that we pull the trigger only if we get a can’t miss, elite coach with an established college coaching record. What if that isn’t an option? I don’t need to hear a list of people that fans would like, who is there that would take the job???
Imho, we need to completely overhaul our program, and our culture with an eye towards the future. Clearly MW isn’t any part of that, he’s a bridge at best. But back to “B”, a bridge to what type of program and who?
I think that’s the biggest question.
If IU hires the RIGHT guy then all questions are answered. He will overhaul the program and install his culture.
IMO, IU doesn't change the culture the coach does.
Look at what was done when RMK was brought in! It was the Hurrying Hoosiers and boom, now it is the defensive Hoosiers. As Norman said, "Leave the ball, would you George".
Not saying that is what you said but....
Yep. I see the names thrown around and many of them just don’t seem worth it. This admin can’t afford to **** up another BB hire
Building a team equals winning. Building a program equals winning consistently. Wins build both ...
MSU and it's long line of rapists murderers and thugs at a school where gymnasts were getting sexually molested .. is not a good culture, it's the antithesis of a good culture, the only reason they are mentioned as such is because of the above.
Agreed, and that’s similar to what I said. The who will determine the what.
Yeah, I thought of that. My parents went to State and my dad (who living with athletes) is always talking to me about a broken culture that exists there , and it goes beyond basketball- or maybe I should say there is a university culture that has seeped down and also affected b-ball.
However, I will say that the basketball program does have an identity and culture*. insofar as style of play. It does seem that the team over the last 25 or so years has a style, tough, rebounding, defense, etc
Edit: *perhaps winning culture, which you stated.
Right, but not just in basketball-seems to be a problem there.
My answers...
A) Depends on how Woody changes, and specifically who he were to get in the portal. There will be A LOT of freshman and sophomores in the portal, that would upgrade the talent level, and provide a couple years of decent stability. Texas Tech's best player this year is a transfer from...Nevada I believe...that has 3 years of eligibility at Texas Tech. They're out there. Portal kid doesn't have to be a senior with 1 year of eligibility. But I wouldn't shy away from impact kids that fit that description, either.
And it doesn't matter much if Woody doesn't figure out how to make his offense and defense more consistent, and just overall effort and focus more consistent as well.
Also...winning cures lots of things. And most times nowadays when there are coaching changes, the new coach faces quite a lot of roster overhaul. So I'm not sure Woody winning with largely 1 year portal "rentals", would leave the cupboard much more bare for the next coach than if he recruited more traditinally.
B)Not sure any of us know that right now. None of us know if May or Schertz or Matta or Beard or, or, or....would take the job if offered. My guess is Schertz would jump at the opportunity. The rest might be much more apprehensive.
I made a post a while back about an interesting point that Michael Lombardi made on Macafee's show, I believe, about how he thought it was important for Owners to establish what type of team and program they want to have, and to go find the right staff that jives with that, and to carry that overall vision out.
Winning, no matter the style, will end up forging the style in to the fabric of IU basketball. I'm not a fan of Virginia/Wisconsin style basketball, at all, but if Bennett came to IU and hung a banner...I'm sure I'd come around pretty quickly.
But I do think that some thought on style of play, pace of play, types of players we want, etc... should be had, discussed, etc... by Dolson and whoever else is making the hiring decision. Indiana can, and should, be a school that appeals to NBA level prospects...AND is THE school of choice for the top prospects in Indiana and surrounding states even. And we've seen, I think, what having a style of play that's heavily leaning away from certain types of players, can do to recruiting efforts.
So if I were making the decision, a faster paced, more perimeter oriented, aggressive and attacking style defense...I'd seek out successful, proven, coaches that implement those styles.
I'd be down for a complete overhaul at the end of this season. But I think Woody can salvage it, and put out a good product for a couple years too.
What I would not choose...is another year with Woody, without some very strong feelings or assurances that he's changing things up.
Looking at our style of play, lack of shooters, and execution, Woody is Archie 2.0. Next year will be a rebuilding year regardless of who is at the helm. Vote of no confidence. It's a bad look to push out a coach after only 3 years, but fck it, we all know what next year is going to look like. Why delay the inevitable?
Offer Beard a bag.... Offer Pearl a bag.... Maybe offer Matta a bag... See who bites. Seems like a lot of the best coaches have moral baggage, so be it. As seen with the Cignetti hire, we need a proven winner who has successfully built multiple programs.
Offer Beard a bag.... Offer Pearl a bag.... Maybe offer Matta a bag... See who bites. Seems like a lot of the best coaches have moral baggage, so be it. As seen with the Cignetti hire, we need a proven winner who has successfully built multiple programs.
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I can not disagree more with this. As I started in another post, IMO, in college it is the coach who sets the culture and everything you listed. Even if you hire a coach whose philosophy does not fit the personnel, with the portal, he can remake the entire team in one year or two at the most.
You have to look no further than IU hiring RMK. Totally different than his predecessors and if IU would have set as a parameter for the new coach, run and gun, Knight would have never even been a candidate let alone the new coach.
Yes, I know, that has been a long time ago but I think the basic principle applies.
I can see the pros being more selective since players might stay with a team for years, maybe even their whole career.
