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My current take on Woody...version 173 or so...

Agreed...do you think if he were even a little bit aware of the mistakes and shortcomings, that he could turn IU around?

I actually don't think we're THAT far off, and that it wouldn't take him completely changing who he is, to dramatically turn IU around.

Not that far off?

No way, I could say that in good conscious.
If this team was competitive against upper competition or competitive PERIOD, then maybe.
If this team had an identity like say, their defense was great most times and good the other times, then maybe.
If this team played hard 40 minutes every game, then maybe.
If this team shot really well, then maybe.
If this team was fundamentally sound, then maybe.
If this team didn't lead the country in flagrant fouls, then maybe.
Is there a worse stat to be leading the nation in?

I have said many times that this team literally have NOTHING to hang there hat on. Name me one thing!
This team and season are a clusterf*** and it begins with the head guy.
Even the fact that he play for RMK should not save him since this team and their play is about as far removed from Knight's teams as the earth is from the sun.
 
Its been 30 years...

Just floating that the path back to that might not be canning Woody after this year.

And I've been one of his biggest critics, on and off, since his original hire.
I respect you making that point and explaining your position. It seems to me that it depends what the options are and unfortunately that is best determined by Dolson (I checked and his salary is about $600k so he should be able to do something right). If CMW would resign and a proven Coach was eager for the job then I would do it now.
 
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Basically I'm playing the devil's advocate role...and trying to make it make sense.

But I do think there's a pathway to Woody finishing his time at IU as more of a success than its feeling right now.

And that includes him changing his approach, and IU actively working with him and through him to bridging to the next guy.

No matter who the coach is, IU needs to take steps to becoming more "current".

Firing Woody and finding the next guy is an obvious step, and at this point, I think Dolson would be supported by enough people to make it happen.

But I don't think that's the ONLY viable step.

Woody's tenure at IU, likely no matter what he does, isn't going to be more than another year or two. I see potential for those remaining years to be more positive than it seems right now. 1 new assitant, and 2 key portal guys, isn't a monumental change.
I would love to be able to go along with this, but the fact that you list things that Woody must agree to change to me shows he isn’t the guy. Indiana is a power 5 basketball program and they’re paying him $4.5 million per year. If you made that investment in an individual and you cannot trust him 100% to run the ship??
 
An assistant coach that's able to instill even slightly better fundamentals.

This roster with even just 1 more starter level guard.

Our cupcake win margins are bigger.

We beat Kansas.

We're more competitive against UConn and Auburn.

We win a couple more B10 games.

Our NET, as a result, is dramatically better, and we're solidly in the NCAA tournament conversation.

We're bringing in McNeeley next year, and its very possible Queen and Davis would have committed as well by now.

None of these things are titanic shifts from where we're at right now.

I'm good if he's canned and we bring in a proven college coach, I really am.

But if that doesn't happen, it doesn't mean we can't be good next year.
 
Very possible. But facing being shit canned, and being seen as a complete failure, can change even old dogs.

I worry about this very thing with Woody, it was one of my main points on why he's failing at IU.

But IF he's open to it, IF he's willing to make a few changes...its more than possible he could turn this whole thing around and finish well at IU.

And that finish doesn't have to be a Natty next year, obviously.
Couldn't disagree more. With all of this.
 
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No...the Chicago team dynamic wasn't, in any way, shape, or form similar to his first few years in Charlotte. He actually had competent management and coaching around him in Chicago...which is my point, obviously.

Not surprising, at all, that you're missing it.
Nah, didn't miss anything. You're just attempting to paint a narrative that isn't grounded in anything but a backwards opinion. You're wrong. Again.
 
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An assistant coach that's able to instill even slightly better fundamentals.

This roster with even just 1 more starter level guard.

Our cupcake win margins are bigger.

We beat Kansas.

We're more competitive against UConn and Auburn.

We win a couple more B10 games.

Our NET, as a result, is dramatically better, and we're solidly in the NCAA tournament conversation.

We're bringing in McNeeley next year, and its very possible Queen and Davis would have committed as well by now.

None of these things are titanic shifts from where we're at right now.

I'm good if he's canned and we bring in a proven college coach, I really am.

But if that doesn't happen, it doesn't mean we can't be good next year.
I think you are way overly optimistic about this roster basically returning intact next season. It is clear to me these guys don’t enjoy playing together. I would guess, at minimum, Woodson is going to have to add 5-6 guys in the portal this Spring.
 
Very possible. But facing being shit canned, and being seen as a complete failure, can change even old dogs.

I worry about this very thing with Woody, it was one of my main points on why he's failing at IU.

But IF he's open to it, IF he's willing to make a few changes...its more than possible he could turn this whole thing around and finish well at IU.

And that finish doesn't have to be a Natty next year, obviously.
No thanks. Your idea is to make a wish and throw a rock. That is NOT how a program should be run. There are commodities out there with a high probability can be successful. On the other hand, there are coaches who are absolute shots in the dark and have a low probability. You hire someone of high probability 100% of the time.
 
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I’m not sure it’s this complex.

We are ranked #100. There are no signs this is changing.

We pay top-10 money to our coach, which should be an elite coach for that money. Turns out he isn’t.

That’s it.
 
I think you are way overly optimistic about this roster basically returning intact next season. It is clear to me these guys don’t enjoy playing together. I would guess, at minimum, Woodson is going to have to add 5-6 guys in the portal this Spring.
My point was in reference to everyone thinking we were SOOOO far off this year. We weren't. Despite losing 4 starters. 1 coach, and 1 more starter level guard, and this thread isn't happening right now.

So...get that coach...and bring in those quality portal guys to play with Malik and Liam.

All it takes is a change in approach and mindset. Its happened before, other coaches have done it...none of us know if Woody is willing or capable of doing it.

And again...if Dolson agrees with most on here that Woody isn't willing or capable, and makes a change...great!

If anyone remembers, I gave the Woody hire a C+, and was ridiculed for it.

I'm right waaayyyy more than I'm wrong.
 
My point was in reference to everyone thinking we were SOOOO far off this year. We weren't. Despite losing 4 starters. 1 coach, and 1 more starter level guard, and this thread isn't happening right now.

So...get that coach...and bring in those quality portal guys to play with Malik and Liam.

All it takes is a change in approach and mindset. Its happened before, other coaches have done it...none of us know if Woody is willing or capable of doing it.

And again...if Dolson agrees with most on here that Woody isn't willing or capable, and makes a change...great!

If anyone remembers, I gave the Woody hire a C+, and was ridiculed for it.

I'm right waaayyyy more than I'm wrong.
I just can’t see how we aren’t SOOO far off.

This is our worst team since Crean’s rebuild, and he didn’t have three 5*s in those teams.

Maybe if someone gave me an example of a far off team I will get it.
 
I’m not sure it’s this complex.

We are ranked #100. There are no signs this is changing.

We pay top-10 money to our coach, which should be an elite coach for that money. Turns out he isn’t.

That’s it.
We didn't pay top money for our coach when we hired Woody, for what its worth. His first two years he was paid bottom of the B10 level money...

Now its top 3-4 in B10, but I seriously doubt its "top 10" in the country. Maybe it is though?
 
My point was in reference to everyone thinking we were SOOOO far off this year. We weren't. Despite losing 4 starters. 1 coach, and 1 more starter level guard, and this thread isn't happening right now.

So...get that coach...and bring in those quality portal guys to play with Malik and Liam.

All it takes is a change in approach and mindset. Its happened before, other coaches have done it...none of us know if Woody is willing or capable of doing it.

And again...if Dolson agrees with most on here that Woody isn't willing or capable, and makes a change...great!

If anyone remembers, I gave the Woody hire a C+, and was ridiculed for it.

I'm right waaayyyy more than I'm wrong.
I don’t know that hiring a new assistant would matter as I’m not even sure Woodson listens to the assistants he has now. If he did, why the need for Wittman and Jim Todd? What is Sleepy Floyd or whomever that is that sits next to Woody’s role? Cheaney? Hulls?
 
We didn't pay top money for our coach when we hired Woody, for what its worth. His first two years he was paid bottom of the B10 level money...

Now its top 3-4 in B10, but I seriously doubt its "top 10" in the country. Maybe it is though?
It is. Right around #10. Pretty generous given his track record vs the other coaches.
 
I just can’t see how we aren’t SOOO far off.

This is our worst team since Crean’s rebuild, and he didn’t have three 5*s in those teams.

Maybe if someone gave me an example of a far off team I will get it.
Its not good, no doubt. And again, I have to reiterate, I'm perfectly fine if Woody gets canned and we bring in a more proven college coach.

I'm just laying out a case to stick with IU if that doesn't happen THIS offseason. Its not a foregone conclusion we'll suck again next year if Woody is back.
 
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This season was lost in the off season. Not sure what any coach could have done with the team Woodson put together.
 
Quick google search says 14-15...on par with programs like Maryland and Providence.
Stop. #8 is $4.1M and #14 is $3.9M. Let’s not get picky over $100K.

Coaches

I didn’t triple check the sources but it’s directionally close. And these numbers exclude bonuses so not sure how those compare.
 
Nah, didn't miss anything. You're just attempting to paint a narrative that isn't grounded in anything but a backwards opinion. You're wrong. Again.
Don't have time to check the receipts...but you seem like someone that would have argued with me originally on the hire being mediocre...and that Braden Smith was going to be "a problem" in the B10...and that Woodson's insistence on focusing heavily on going through TJD in year one, was a very bad idea...etc...

Again, I'm right waayyyy more than I'm wrong. And I'm not even picking a side on this one. Fire him...cool. Keep him...cool. It can work either way.
 
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Stop. #8 is $4.1M and #14 is $3.9M. Let’s not get picky over $100K.

Coaches
Agreed...but lets not use salary as anything other than IU has the resources to pay its head basketball coach "top 10" levels of money.

Heck, maybe that's one of the main reasons Dolson gave Woody the raise...? To officially raise the expectation levels? So many things all us keyboard warriors think we "know"...that we likely don't.

Last year he looked like he was moving towards earning "top 10" money. This year it appears not. The position is now firmly established with "top 10" expectations, if salary is the justification. So he's missed that for a year now. I doubt he gets many more performances like this one.
 
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He was very resistant to this approach initially at IU...and it didn't work. But maybe after 3 years, the last of which being an abject failure, he'd be more open to something sort of similar to the original setup?

But maybe this time he's the one that gets to choose a "Dane Fife/Phil Martelli" type assistant coach?

Woody himself doesn't have to change a ton. He can be the CEO...he just needs a lot better COO, CFO, etc...

It doesn't always go that way in the business world, and it rarely goes that way in the sporting world. But I think Woody has enough recruiting pull, and the right temperament, that if he were to bring in some more competent assistants below him...he could have a successful finish at IU.

This one won't make sense to most..but it does to me. Archie wasn't capable of leading IU basketball because his personality, energy, etc... wasn't a good fit, at IU. And that infected his teams play. But Archie did effectively teach, and coach, core fundamentals. His teams were solid defensively and offensively. He just didn't have that extra gear, to make them great at anything. Archie was the one that never "got over the hump"...but I think his ability to teach the game of basketball, put them up against that hump regularly. Obviously NOT advocating for Archie as an assistant coach...just that having someone on the bench with that mindset...combined with a guy like Woody as the public leader, lead recruiter, etc... Could work well.

We all liked Woody's personality A LOT more in years 1 and 2, when it appeared we were headed in the right direction.
So, maybe we find his Chip Kelly?
 
So, maybe we find his Chip Kelly?
I'm open for anything. And itd be cheaper to go that route than to fire him and start over.

I'm thinking more of a lesser name, but the concept is someone that has chops actually teaching the game of basketball.

Its all conjecture based on Woody being down with it. There are obvious questions that he would be. But none of us know that, for sure.

Heck, even Dane's firing had A LOT more to do with his ridiculous public stance against NIL, than Woody not wanting/accepting his coaching input.
 
This'll be a long one...fair warning...

Short version is I think he's a really, really good man, that isn't a good basketball coach.

Longer version...

The good man part...there are just too many stories and examples of people, on and off the basketball court, that use words like "love" and "friend" when describing Woody, that I think its ridiculous for any of us on this board to start questioning his character, or the type of man he is.

The basketball coach part... The more I think of it, I think he's just another example of a great basketball player, that isn't able to relate and/or teach the game of basketball. Michael Jordan comes to mind, Isaiah Thomas...there aren't a lot of good basketball coaches that were great basketball players. I think a lot of that is because its very difficult for those types of people to relate to players that aren't, in any way, on their level. I'm sure its frustrating for Woody that a kid like Mack can't step over into a gap and help, and then react and recover back to his man. I can see/hear Woody yelling at him in practices and in game huddles..."Why can't you figure this out? Help and recover, help and recover!"... An effective coach would have spent long periods of time from August to the start of the season teaching Mack...1) proper defensive stance (he rarely goes that correctly or effectively)...2)What it looks and feels like to attack the gap from helpside (Mack likely has no idea, and thinks he's doing it properly)...3)How to move and react to recover back on to his man (this is something that absolutely needs tought, and through lots of repetition). The evidence is showing that Woody has not invested the time teaching Mack the gritty details of effective help and recover defense.

I used this example because I think it covers a ton of other detail level issues, that I just don't think Woody knows how to, has the patience to, or feels like he should have to...teach his players at IU. Mack is one of the more gifted and talented players we've had at IU in a while, pure skill wise. But we're seeing that he's pretty raw, likely hasn't really ever been taught these fundamental things that we're seeing exposed right now. For that, I think its probably been very difficult, and frustrating, for Woody coaching him.

I also think this is why TJD, and JHS to a smaller extent, appeared to have blossomed or thrived under Woody. Trayce is on Woody's level...physically, skill wise, and probably his mentality as well. So it makes sense that he would have taken Woody's direction differently, and better, than a Mack would.

This brings me to what I think is probably Woody's biggest problem, as a basketball coach. His greatness as a player likely stemmed in no small part from being supremely confident in his own abilities. And I have no doubt he thinks that way about himself as a basketball coach too. You can here it in the way he talks in press conferences at times. Even though he does regularly say things like "Its on me..." or "I've got to be better..."...there are many, many other comments that scream that he doesn't believe those things, at all. And I think he has a HUGE lack of self awareness on all these shortcomings...or else he'd fix them!

So where do I go from here? And where should IU go from here?

I continue to follow IU basketball, and hope that Woody ends up being more like Larry Bird, than like Michael Jordan. Bird, one of the more confident basketball players to ever play the game, also learned when he got in to coaching, and in to managing basketball programs, that humility is very important. And because of that, I think, he was able to recognize that people below him needed help. Jordan, when it comes to coaching and managing, never found the humility side of things. And he's never been successful because of it. Jordan's success on the court, and with his own Jordan brand, is from his own force of nature skill and willpower. But managing a basketball program, either by coaching or deciding on the players, can't be done through osmosis, or by association.

IU decision makers need to decide what they want IU basketball to be. Obviously what we're seeing right now isn't it. But that doesn't automatically mean Woody should be fired. If there's any level of contrition on Woody's part, when he's talking with Dolson...ANY level of curiosity on how he can be better, on what needs to be done for the program to be better... Woodson has enough good things about him, that keeping him on wouldn't necessarily be a horrible decision. The BEST thing that could happen for IU basketball, right now, is for Woodson to "figure it out", and turn it around next year. And it wouldn't take a huge change for that to happen. A little bit of self awareness would lead to Woody knowing he needs help...good, go find a proven college basketball coach at some lower level, and hire him as an assistant coach. And then hit the recruiting trail...and use your awareness of your own shortcomings, and what's needed to be successful in college bball, to guide you on the kids you go after. You need proven leaders...you need proven winners...you need dynamic perimeter players...hell, you need players that have proven they can play consistently at a high level, on both ends of the court, for coaches and programs similar to yourself...OR, you need players that have played multiple years already for programs that you know will have drilled in to them core fundamental basketball principles. There's a reason why top Ivy League players often thrive as portal guys.

If Woodson doesn't show any contrition, doesn't show any signs of curiosity, between now and the end of the basketball season...I think you have to let him go. Another year like this will do quite a lot more harm to IU basketball's brand...and will further separate it from the wonderful legacy that McCracken and Knight built. Whatever the backlash, whatever the financial ramifications, you have to take those on by making the move immediately.

And if that's the move you make...the next hire needs to be a proven COLLEGE basketball coach. Someone that's widely lauded as a teacher of the game. Someone who's teams are solid and efficient. But that has shown an ability to adapt and change with the times. So someone that has shown an ability to improve their team in the portal, as an example. Someone that focuses heavily on perimeter play. That doesn't need to be any sort of "IU guy". If he comes and continues to do all those things effectively, he'll quickly become an "IU guy". He'll become a part of our rich history. And if he teaches and coaches the game the right way..."Knight's guys" will naturally all gravitate towards him and the program.

The only thing that's holding this very thin thread together right now between the team today, and all the rich history, former players, etc... Is the memory of Woodson playing for Knight in the early 80s. Its time for more than a thin thread. We need gorilla glue...and that will ONLY come from a basketball program that gets back to playing high level basketball, the right way. Efficient basketball on both ends of the court. Gritty, team oriented basketball that the fans can all recognize and be proud of.

If Woody is aware of that, and open to changing to get to that...keep him. If he's not, or if he's not, move on and find someone that will.

Your first 8-9 paragraphs were an outstanding diagnosis of the problem. Then it all went to hell.
 
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Don't have time to check the receipts...but you seem like someone that would have argued with me originally on the hire being mediocre...and that Braden Smith was going to be "a problem" in the B10...and that Woodson's insistence on focusing heavily on going through TJD in year one, was a very bad idea...etc...

Again, I'm right waayyyy more than I'm wrong. And I'm not even picking a side on this one. Fire him...cool. Keep him...cool. It can work either way.
"you seem like someone that would"...you know how dumb this statement is right?

You pushed Cupps over Smith, so there's that. You are totally full of shit so often.

I'm sure you believe you are right waayyyy more often than wrong. Imo, your record of calls is pretty damned weak. Look at your dumb Jordan comments in this thread. That's just my opinion though.

It's EXTREMELY unlikely Woodson can man this work. Time for a change.
 
Not that far off?

No way, I could say that in good conscious.
If this team was competitive against upper competition or competitive PERIOD, then maybe.
If this team had an identity like say, their defense was great most times and good the other times, then maybe.
If this team played hard 40 minutes every game, then maybe.
If this team shot really well, then maybe.
If this team was fundamentally sound, then maybe.
If this team didn't lead the country in flagrant fouls, then maybe.
Is there a worse stat to be leading the nation in?

I have said many times that this team literally have NOTHING to hang there hat on. Name me one thing!
This team and season are a clusterf*** and it begins with the head guy.
Even the fact that he play for RMK should not save him since this team and their play is about as far removed from Knight's teams as the earth is from the sun.
Well said. Which begs the question - how is all of the practice time spent? There are hours upon hours of offseason, preseason, and in season practice time. I’m not one to relentlessly defend Fife. I don’t know the real story there. But I would bet that Fife probably mentioned more than a time or two how Izzo drills and drills on fundamentals to get his team to rebound and defend every year. And how to share the ball and play selflessly. How receptive was Woodson to any of those valuable insights? How much advice, if any, did he seek from Matta? I doubt Woodson was humbled enough at that point to be receptive to much of it. Opportunity seemingly missed.
 
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Great post, I don’t know though, I think we are really far off. Being ranked #100 and maybe not in the NIT, with one recruit signed and Ware and others probably others leaving is looking pretty grim. If Woody changes his approach are we really jumping 50-75 spots? And that’s just to be okay, not even close to elite. I think he would have to change too many things about his approach to fix everything.

I agree we need Woody (the coach) to change. I just can’t help but think the easiest way to change the coach, is to change the coach. If Woody could have adjusted he would have already.

Who knows. We’ll see what Dolson does.
I really think in Woody's mind he is going about it the right way but in reality it's not working. He can use injuries and kids not living up tp potential all he wants but the fact is his bench was weak, he got no great guard from the portal, X and Galloway have been like yoyos. Galloway can dish but then does little scoring or vice versa. Never a consistent player-- much like Fletcher at PU. Leal can shoot but I don't think they utilize him in that way. Woody isn't going to change his style no matter how much fans would like him too. He is stubborn and feels it is on his players and not him. Uses the same cliches after every loss.The only way IU moves up and consistent is a complete overhaul of this coaching staff. They were supposed to be such great recruiters but other than Mgbako and one guy in 25', they haven't proved that. This team and coaches are far from IU standard. I don't care how many do not like Bruce Pearl at least has proven himself at every place he coached.
 
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Dude is what, nearly 66 years old. He ain't changing shit at this point. Anyone that thinks that is anything more than a pipe dream is nuts, imo. Change is needed. Bring in the next guy.
Would bet the IU admin prefers to rearrange the deck chairs.
 
I think you recently posted something about JHS being a historic guard. How did you arrive at this? The guy scored a total of 432 points his freshman year-significantly less than even Romeo. He was a small flash in the IU pan. Why historic?
 
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"you seem like someone that would"...you know how dumb this statement is right?

You pushed Cupps over Smith, so there's that. You are totally full of shit so often.

I'm sure you believe you are right waayyyy more often than wrong. Imo, your record of calls is pretty damned weak. Look at your dumb Jordan comments in this thread. That's just my opinion though.

It's EXTREMELY unlikely Woodson can man this work. Time for a change.
Bro, there are a whole lot of jokers spouting continual nonsense around here. If you are hellbent to do so, go after some of them. You know who they are. North often contributes thoughtful and well-written analysis here. Doesn't mean he's batting 1,000 but neither are you. Nobody is.
 
"you seem like someone that would"...you know how dumb this statement is right?

You pushed Cupps over Smith, so there's that. You are totally full of shit so often.

I'm sure you believe you are right waayyyy more often than wrong. Imo, your record of calls is pretty damned weak. Look at your dumb Jordan comments in this thread. That's just my opinion though.

It's EXTREMELY unlikely Woodson can man this work. Time for a change.
I pushed Cupps over Smith?...Hmmm... I've often said they aren't remotely similar players. And that Cupps will be a very good college PG (he will be)...but I've never waivered from Smith being one of the best PGs in the B10. And I've never made that claim about Cupps.

What's wrong about my Jordan comments? Other than the technicality that he never actually coached...even though I included player management in the Bird/Jordan comparison. He's been a failure in basketball management...and the reason's have been widely talked about. Are you one of those people that can't stomach Jordan criticism? He's my favorite all time basketball player, for what its worth. But he's been horrible off the court, because he doesn't know how to relate to those that aren't like him.

My stance is Woody can turn the program back in the right direction. Nothing more, nothing less. And that stance comes with the qualifier that he'll need to change some things. None of us have a damn clue whether he will, or won't.

An example that he might...he was pretty damn indignant early in the year about his substitution patterns, etc... About a month ago, he seemingly flipped and changed that philosophy to playing 6-7 guys most of the game. That's a pretty damn big change, and clear departure from NBA principles.

And before your dumbass focuses on how that has worked out for us...it hasn't. But you keep claiming there's no way in hell he will change... well that change in subbing philosophy says he might be more open to changing things than it seems.
 
My point was in reference to everyone thinking we were SOOOO far off this year. We weren't. Despite losing 4 starters. 1 coach, and 1 more starter level guard, and this thread isn't happening right now.

So...get that coach...and bring in those quality portal guys to play with Malik and Liam.

All it takes is a change in approach and mindset. Its happened before, other coaches have done it...none of us know if Woody is willing or capable of doing it.

And again...if Dolson agrees with most on here that Woody isn't willing or capable, and makes a change...great!

If anyone remembers, I gave the Woody hire a C+, and was ridiculed for it.

I'm right waaayyyy more than I'm wrong.
If you think changing assistants is going to straighten out this mess you're waaayyyy wrong.
 
While generally I agree with your post, I have two questions/comments:
  1. McTaco has shown more development this year than any other player, from beginning of season to now, so I'm not sure he's exactly the best example to use to make this point.
  2. When did Jordan coach? You reference his inability to coach multiple times. He's never coached.
Hes gone from 2 stars to 3 stars, still looks clueless on D, and has not (to my knowledge) had any more run ins with the police. And it dont make a difference now because hes goin somewhere else at seasons end.
 
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I think you recently posted something about JHS being a historic guard. How did you arrive at this? The guy scored a total of 432 points his freshman year-significantly less than even Romeo. He was a small flash in the IU pan. Why historic?
You asking me? I've never said JHS is historic. I've used historic to describe TJD multiple times.

I'm on record, blasted by tons of people for it, that JHS was a flawed player, and wouldn't likely end up a PG in the NBA. Verdict is still out on that one.
 
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