My current take on Woody...version 173 or so...

[IUNorth]

if In fact he was establishing departmental expectations then he established Top Ten performance as the reasonable expectation.

Correct...how long does Woody get to meet those expectations? Does he think this season is convincing evidence he'll never reach them?

Dolson didn't fully believe in Woody when he hired him. His initial salary was near the bottom of the league. He hired two guys to look over his shoulder.

Isn't it very possible this raise is Dolson establishing exactly what the expectations are, and that he'll use that as PART of his criteria when he ends up letting him go?

 

[IUNorth]

Probably would have been much better off as a four ...

100%

And in a much different defensive scheme.

 

[T.M.P.]

I’m not giving him much credit for changing the substitution patterns. It became obvious to even the casual IU bball fans that the mass subbing was a big problem. It was all over social media. The analytics made it clear. There were likely multiple games lost because of it. He even made a comment that showed his irritation with fans and broadcasters being critical of it. He stubbornly hung onto a losing strategy. He changed it far too late. So rather than this being an example of how he might be salvageable. I think it is more an example of why he is not.

He hasn't changed them enough .. and the little he did was way too late.

 

[IUNorth]

That's also due to the lineups Woodson used and how he used them. The bench is horrible, and should not have played long minutes. That has been proven by stats, game logs, the record, by analytic metrics and by watching.

Every game this year, we are either competing or ahead, the scrubs come in and the other team goes on a big run. Every f**king game .. it's not the individual the team as a whole falls apart on both ends of the floor ..

The higher efficiency of the starting group speaks for itself though it belies all the couch coaching on this board and no one wants to give any him any credit.. but the inefficiency of the bench is drastic... especially when two or more are in. It may just be the worst bench in all of basketball .. and they should not be getting much run.

Most of you are looking in the wrong places... the lineups caused more of this fiasco than any other single factor .. they not only caused IU to lose games, but skewed the metrics .. we were never going to be a great team, there's key pieces missing, but he screwed himself more with his approach to lineups ... and ignoring possession based basketball as a whole.

And while he's still subbing more than he should, he did noticeably change his subbing strategy roughly a month ago...no?

I'm really just trying to establish that he's open to making fundamental changes like this.

 

[IUNorth]

I’m not giving him much credit for changing the substitution patterns. It became obvious to even the casual IU bball fans that the mass subbing was a big problem. It was all over social media. The analytics made it clear. There were likely multiple games lost because of it. He even made a comment that showed his irritation with fans and broadcasters being critical of it. He stubbornly hung onto a losing strategy. He changed it far too late. So rather than this being an example of how he might be salvageable. I think it is more an example of why he is not.

Definitely too little, too late...for this season. But I'm not sure many on this board realize or understand how central to a coach's overall philosophy substitution strategies are. He's quite dramatically changed that, and it wasn't a gradual change. It was the game at Illinois, I believe. Something ended up convincing him to do it. And, for me, it leaves open the possibility he'll change pretty much anything.

 

[T.M.P.]

I'm really just trying to establish that he's open to making fundamental changes like this.

I have my doubts ...

 

[CriticArisen]

Correct...how long does Woody get to meet those expectations? Does he think this season is convincing evidence he'll never reach them?

Dolson didn't fully believe in Woody when he hired him. His initial salary was near the bottom of the league. He hired two guys to look over his shoulder.

Isn't it very possible this raise is Dolson establishing exactly what the expectations are, and that he'll use that as PART of his criteria when he ends up letting him go?

There are much cheaper ways of establishing expectations between a supervisor and a reportee that are typically used. I agree having a subordinate that is making 7 times more than you and his good friend has input on your continued employment is unusual. I don’t believe even in that situation I would give a sizable raise to someone that I didn’t think deserved it in order to establish expectations.

 

[IUNorth]

I have my doubts ...

Me too...keeping the door open though.

Gonna be a loooonnnnnnggg off season otherwise.

I'll bet he has some success landing some good portal guards. And we'll keep more than most are thinking today.

 

[IUNorth]

There are much cheaper ways of establishing expectations between a supervisor and a reportee that are typically used. I agree having a subordinate that is making 7 times more than you and his good friend has input on your continued employment is unusual. I don’t believe even in that situation I would give a sizable raise to someone that I didn’t think deserved it in order to establish expectations.

I just think its absurd to think that Dolson's opinion of Woody went from what it was when he hired him...one of the lowest paid B10 coaches, needing babysitters, not going after him initially...to then making him a "top 10" paid coach in all of college basketball...by what Woody did his first two years.

There's other reasons for that raise. To think otherwise is beyond presumptuous on any of our parts, that Dolson is THAT stupid. He isn't. His other hiring/firing decisions should show that he isn't.

 

[Tammany Hall]

Correct...how long does Woody get to meet those expectations? Does he think this season is convincing evidence he'll never reach them?

Dolson didn't fully believe in Woody when he hired him. His initial salary was near the bottom of the league. He hired two guys to look over his shoulder.

Isn't it very possible this raise is Dolson establishing exactly what the expectations are, and that he'll use that as PART of his criteria when he ends up letting him go?

If Scott didn’t fully believe in him when he was hired, then he shouldn’t have hired him! $3M/yr got Woody to sign, it’s not like anyone else wanted him to coach their team, and he was making probably a little over $1M with the Knicks. May as well pay some not in demand coach what he agreed to.

Best case Dolson set higher expectations with this raise. But when I read his quote with the raise, it’s much more of a “job well done Woody!” than a quote about pushing expectations. We’ll never know but I don’t see it.

The expectations set in the original 2021 contract should be sufficient for year three.

If he won a conference title or made a tourney run I could see a raise, but there was no such exceptional outperformance.

Raise or not, I’m sure this season is far enough below any 2021 or 2023 expectation to cite it as a reason for termination.

 

[Tammany Hall]

To think otherwise is beyond presumptuous on any of our parts, that Dolson is THAT stupid. He isn't. His other hiring/firing decisions should show that he isn't.

He hired Woody anything is possible.

 

[IUNorth]

If he didn’t fully believe in him when he was hired, then he shouldn’t have hired him! $3M/yr got Woody to sign, it’s not like anyone else wanted him to coach their team, and he was making probably a little over $1M with the Knicks. May as well pay some low demand coach what he agreed to.

Best case Dolson set higher expectations with this raise. But when I read his quote with the raise, it’s much more of a “job well done Woody!” than a quote about pushing expectations. We’ll never know but I don’t see it.

The expectations set in the original 2021 contract should be sufficient for year three.

If he won a conference title or made a tourney run I could see a raise, but there was no such exceptional outperformance.

Raise or not, I’m sure this season is far enough below any 2021 or 2023 expectation to cite it as a reason for termination.

He's hiring for the job of Indiana Men's Basketball Coach...arguably one of the most important jobs in all B10 sports.

The salary he chose, for Woodson, was near the bottom of the conference. And he hired two guys to help him out. Heck, where the agreed salary ended was near the bottom of the conference. All these contracts are negotiated...Dolson either initially thought Woody was worth LESS than what it ended up being...OR this is what he thought it was, and reiterated it when they countered and he would have said, "No...this is what you'll get." Either way, by pay...AND by the initial incentives, he thought Woody was a bottom half caliber coach.

Not sure how much more evidence you need for how Dolson viewed Woody at the time of his hiring.

And if there's any acknowledgment that those things are a sign he wasn't sold on Woody as the coach...then I find it very hard to think what Woody did in his first two years would flip Dolson THAT much.

And its IU, he was going to have to talk about the raise...of course he'd say it was because of the NCAA tournament berths, etc...

You're the one that schooled me on what Dolson originally thought those achievements were worth. The raise had to be driven by other things.

Just trying to use logic here.

 

[IUNorth]

He hired Woody anything is possible.

True...including things similar to what I'm throwing out as possibilities.

And he "settled" for Woody at best, if not was forced to hire him at worst...a detail that often gets forgotten in these types of back and forths.

 

[Tammany Hall]

He's hiring for the job of Indiana Men's Basketball Coach...arguably one of the most important jobs in all B10 sports.

The salary he chose, for Woodson, was near the bottom of the conference. And he hired two guys to help him out.

Not sure how much more evidence you need for how Dolson viewed Woody at the time of his hiring.

And if there's any acknowledgment that those things are a sign he wasn't sold on Woody as the coach...then I find it very hard to think what Woody did in his first two years would flip Dolson THAT much.

And its IU, he was going to have to talk about the raise...of course he'd say it was because of the NCAA tournament berths, etc...

You're the one that schooled me on what Dolson originally thought those achievements were worth. The raise had to be driven by other things.

Just trying to use logic here.

Yea, I get we are trying to explain the raise. I can’t figure it out. Your hypothesis on increasing expectations could be true, I hope it is. I have never seen this sort of thing in business, so this is more me throwing up my hands in confusion. Maybe I should do a FOIA for the amendment to Woody’s contract lol.

 

[Bucket Getter]

Does anyone know for sure Buckner didn’t nudge Dolson into giving the raise?

MM at the 4? Dude gets 4 rebounds a game. Great shooter? 39% overall and 31% from 3. Remember when he started the season hitting his first 22 or so fts? Down to 81% now. Whoever gives out those 5 stars needs a new hobby.

 

[CriticArisen]

I just think its absurd to think that Dolson's opinion of Woody went from what it was when he hired him...one of the lowest paid B10 coaches, needing babysitters, not going after him initially...to then making him a "top 10" paid coach in all of college basketball...by what Woody did his first two years.

There's other reasons for that raise. To think otherwise is beyond presumptuous on any of our parts, that Dolson is THAT stupid. He isn't. His other hiring/firing decisions should show that he isn't.

By my calculations it would take more stupidity to willfully give someone I thought was a marginal employee a $1 mil raise then any scenario you can concoct.

 

[Ty Webb iu]

3-4 years ago, when they were both in high school? Ok, maybe? Gabe had led a team to a state title, and his AAU team to quite a lot of impressive wins over more talented teams. Smith was a very talented and dynamic offensive player, that had limited success leading teams to big wins/accomplishments.

The second I saw Smith in a college game, all that changed, and I said so. And even then, I still worry about his defense being solid enough to lead Purdue to their potential, which is a Natty. Doesn't mean he isn't a problem for the B10 if he falls short of that.

What's factually incorrect about my Jordan comments? You think he's been a good GM/Owner? Or are you still focusing on the coaching thing, solely? I remember watching an ESPN story on how Jordan was practicing with the Bobcats, sitting in on team meetings, overruling coaches regularly, etc... And then him acknowledging that why he doesn't coach, and why he backed off on all that, is he can't relate to the players.

Getting todays kids to play hard is easy, huh? Hmmm... No...its not. Its more difficult than its ever been.

His "nail" philosophy is fine. He just hasn't taught it well. That's where the awareness comes in. They should play a more simple switching man to man defense, without the overhelp principles. And complement that with some sort of 3-2 zone.

I've been on record, countless times, since his first handful of games his first season, that his offense isn't good. Where have you been? Its easy to call now, not so easy when we're sweeping Purdue, and making NCAA tournaments, and have a historically good big we're running things through.

I'll acknowledge when you "call me on something"...and are right. The Jordan thing, kind of...but the overall point, you're obviously wrong and are missing on that even.

OK idiot or um sir (my civility is improving), this is my last response on this subject. You preferred Smith to Cupps in HS. You were wrong when it mattered. Because who you recruit and land in college basketball matters. It matters not what you think about Smith once in college. Anyone can see that now.

Your Jordan comments are stupid and wrong. Move on.

Don't agree with any of your 2nd paragraph, with the possible exception of running some type of zone. They should be guarding pick an rolls differently depending on where the screen is set floor, players involved in pick and roll etc. IU goes over when they could and should go under and they lay back when a hard hedge or trap would be the best course action.

Thank God you aren't a coach. Playing hard is a must. It's very easy to accomplish. Play hard you play. Don't play hard you sit. Simple.

I was pointing out many of the things that makes Woody a bad coach, not claiming you never said those things. SMH

Again, have a good day.

 

[Tammany Hall]

By my calculations it would take more stupidity to willfully give someone I thought was a marginal employee a $1 mil raise then any scenario you can concoct.

Maybe it’s a big public institution bureaucracy thing. I don’t know.

 

[Tammany Hall]

Does anyone know for sure Buckner didn’t nudge Dolson into giving the raise?

If he did that would be way out of line. Big public institution… maybe!

 

[Ty Webb iu]

Definitely...and I don't know what Mack's coaching before he got to IU was like. It looks like he's never really been taught anything. And to your point, he is improving in some areas this year...but with how bad he looked the first month of the season, its difficult for me to believe Woody focused on defensive fundamentals all that much early on...when its essential that a coach does so.

Hes a decent shooter for his size, not as elite as some make him out to be, but good. And he has a nose for the ball around the basket. And I'd say he isn't a horrible ball handler for his size either. I wouldn't say he has "one skill". But would agree, with the NBA as a measuring stick, ALL of them need a lot of work.

He's a horrible defender and ballhandler. His one chance of getting to the NBA was 3 and D specialist. He's not there with his shooting yet, if it ever does get to that level, he'll have to become a MUCH better defender. He can get away with be a deficient ballhandler in the NBA.

 

[IUNorth]

Yea, I get we are trying to explain the raise. I can’t figure it out. Your hypothesis on increasing expectations could be true, I hope it is. I have never seen this sort of thing in business, so this is more me throwing up my hands in confusion. Maybe I should do a FOIA for the amendment to Woody’s contract lol.

This is all msg board nonsense to pass the time.

Of course its message board nonsense!

IU bball position is very different than most business hiring positions. I would say though, setting CEO compensation as bench marks for expectations, is fairly common. And also used to attract higher caliber candidates.

Per the first sentence...I have zero clue on this...but it seems plausible...

IU Athletic department is flush with cash.

Dolson sees the same things we all see with Woody, as early as some of us saw it (his first year).

Practically, he can't fire him at any point during his first two seasons.

What he can do, is establish what the job is, and what the expectations are. Both to aide in the decision making process in a year or two, AND to attract higher caliber candidates.

All the stress and expectations for the job mean a completely different thing when the expected pay is at the bottom of the conference versus at the top. Dusty May might answer the phone, just because the job now pays 4+ mil a year.

Tons of possibilities that make just as much sense as Dolson being all starry eyed over Woodson over what he did his first two seasons.

 

[IUNorth]

He's a horrible defender and ballhandler. His one chance of getting to the NBA was 3 and D specialist. He's not there with his shooting yet, if it ever does get to that level, he'll have to become a MUCH better defender. He can get away with be a deficient ballhandler in the NBA.

Horrible defender...getting better...slowly.

Not a horrible ball handler for a wing/big type position. Horrible if you're expecting him to make prolonged moves, counter moves, reads, etc...

I think coming out of HS, his grade was more of an all round scorer. "Best scorer in the class" I believe I read. He's obviously not that, he's not varied or skilled enough, in any way, approach that label.

NOW, I think his one chance in the NBA is 3 and D. And he's not elite enough a shooter to even be considered for that, let alone his defensive issues.

 

[Ty Webb iu]

And while he's still subbing more than he should, he did noticeably change his subbing strategy roughly a month ago...no?

I'm really just trying to establish that he's open to making fundamental changes like this.

We understand what you're trying to do. The problem is nobody agrees. Or at least people aren't convinced by what you believe is the evidence for Woody being open to change.

 

[Ty Webb iu]

Horrible defender...getting better...slowly.

Not a horrible ball handler for a wing/big type position. Horrible if you're expecting him to make prolonged moves, counter moves, reads, etc...

I think coming out of HS, his grade was more of an all round scorer. "Best scorer in the class" I believe I read. He's obviously not that, he's not varied or skilled enough, in any way, approach that label.

NOW, I think his one chance in the NBA is 3 and D. And he's not elite enough a shooter to even be considered for that, let alone his defensive issues.

Hey...we agree on everything but the ballhandling part. Congrats to us.

 

[Bucket Getter]

If he did that would be way out of line. Big public institution… maybe!

Agree 100%. Wouldn't it be considered "way out of line" to force the AD to hire his old golfing buddy who had never coached a single second of college basketball too?

 

[IUNorth]

Hey...we agree on everything but the ballhandling part. Congrats to us.

NBA as the benchmark...you're right, not good enough a ball handler for really any position.

To be a really, really good college stretch 4, that might end up being able to parlay that in to a shot at the NBA...it looks like there's a foundation there for the shooting, defense, and ball handling. But nearly there yet.

 

[Tammany Hall]

Of course its message board nonsense!

IU bball position is very different than most business hiring positions. I would say though, setting CEO compensation as bench marks for expectations, is fairly common. And also used to attract higher caliber candidates.

Per the first sentence...I have zero clue on this...but it seems plausible...

IU Athletic department is flush with cash.

Dolson sees the same things we all see with Woody, as early as some of us saw it (his first year).

Practically, he can't fire him at any point during his first two seasons.

What he can do, is establish what the job is, and what the expectations are. Both to aide in the decision making process in a year or two, AND to attract higher caliber candidates.

All the stress and expectations for the job mean a completely different thing when the expected pay is at the bottom of the conference versus at the top. Dusty May might answer the phone, just because the job now pays 4+ mil a year.

Tons of possibilities that make just as much sense as Dolson being all starry eyed over Woodson over what he did his first two seasons.

The search firm putting out feelers can give Dusty the ballpark offer for Dusty, I’d rather do that than pay Woody more.

Dolson offered Stevens a huge number, $6-8M something like that.

In a search I don’t think coaches would think IU will pay them what they pay Woody.

 

[IUNorth]

Agree 100%. Wouldn't it be considered "way out of line" to force the AD to hire his old golfing buddy who had never coached a single second of college basketball too?

Using this is all conjecture disclaimer...

I could totally see Quinn having this stance..."Sure, go after Stevens and Donovan, we should go after them...but we need to consider Woody as well just in case we can't get those guys." Then when those guys are no longer options..."Woody is our best choice...my strong advice is go with him."

Hard to fully fault Dolson in that situation. And it wouldn't have been Buckner "forcing" him to hire Woody.

 

[Tammany Hall]

I think Dolson got starry eyed with three 5*’s on the roster and the chance to get McNeely/Queen/Boogie. He jumped the gun.

 

[IUNorth]

The search firm putting out feelers can give Dusty the ballpark offer for Dusty, I’d rather do that than pay Woody more.

Dolson offered Stevens a huge number, $6-8M something like that.

In a search I don’t think coaches would think IU will pay them what they pay Woody.

There's still final negotiations...and search firm or not, Dolson would have had to agree with the initial feeler offers.

 

[Tammany Hall]

There's still final negotiations...and search firm or not, Dolson would have had to agree with the initial feeler offers.

Yea. If Woody was only making $3M, the feelers could and would exceed $3M for more experienced/better coaches.

 

[IUNorth]

I think Dolson got starry eyed with three 5*’s on the roster and the chance to get McNeely/Queen/Boogie. He jumped the gun.

Doubt it. But could be. We had 3 - 5 stars the year before, and got thumped multiple times last season. We had 2 - 5 stars his first year, and had to claw our way in to the NCAA tournament.

Everyone was generally excited at the prospects for this next year with McNeeley, Queen, Boogie, etc...

I just refuse to believe that was the central reason Woody got the raise he did. We're basically putting Dolson on our level of emotional message board posters by believing that. All his other decisions and actions put him on a much higher plane than that...in my opinion.

 

[Tammany Hall]

The IU athletic department is plenty capable of bad decisions.

 

[IUNorth]

OK idiot or um sir (my civility is improving), this is my last response on this subject. You preferred Smith to Cupps in HS. You were wrong when it mattered. Because who you recruit and land in college basketball matters. It matters not what you think about Smith once in college. Anyone can see that now.

Your Jordan comments are stupid and wrong. Move on.

Don't agree with any of your 2nd paragraph, with the possible exception of running some type of zone. They should be guarding pick an rolls differently depending on where the screen is set floor, players involved in pick and roll etc. IU goes over when they could and should go under and they lay back when a hard hedge or trap would be the best course action.

Thank God you aren't a coach. Playing hard is a must. It's very easy to accomplish. Play hard you play. Don't play hard you sit. Simple.

I was pointing out many of the things that makes Woody a bad coach, not claiming you never said those things. SMH

Again, have a good day.

I don't believe I ever said Cupps over Smith. I didn't start making that comparison until after my "he's gonna be a problem" post. I do remember justifying to many posters on here, why we should be recruiting Cupps, and why I was excited for him to be coming to IU. But probably in those same posts, I was very guarded with the Smith/Cupps comparison. Saying things like "Most IU fans won't value Cupps as much as they should."..."He's a completely different type of player to Smith." Etc... I can see where you'd get confused on all that.

Jordan was a good GM/Owner? Yes or no?

You have no clue what you're talking about on the defensive side. They're attempting to run a very specific, and widely used defensive philosophy...that happens to be hard to play and coach correctly. When run well, it can be dominant. I've never seen it executed as poorly as IU has. If you're not capable of teaching a defense like "nail" help... then switch all the screens in a man to man...that cuts down on the amount of help and rotation your guys have to think/worry about. Also, play some sort of matchup 3-2 zone. A traditional 2-3 zone still involves quite a lot of gap help and recover. 3-2's, not as much on the perimeter.

Obviously I understand the importance of playing hard. And I have quite a lot of ideas on how to do it. My college team played harder than any team we played. I get it. But in todays NIL/Portal world...not quite as easy. IU's NIL machine has quite a lot of money invested in Mack...he's gonna play. Very easy for keyboard warriors, like us, to be hard asses and say he shouldn't.

I've pointed out, many times, the same things. I'm offering what I think are realistic things that could happen for Woody to get things back on track. SMH.

You have a good day too.

 

[CriticArisen]

Agree 100%. Wouldn't it be considered "way out of line" to force the AD to hire his old golfing buddy who had never coached a single second of college basketball too?

Actually pay raises and bonuses are the responsibility of the Trustees.

 

[Tammany Hall]

Actually pay raises and bonuses are the responsibility of the Trustees.

Good info, I would have thought they sign off on Pam/Dolson’s proposal for Woody.

 

[IUNorth]

Actually pay raises and bonuses are the responsibility of the Trustees.

This, I think, bolsters my belief that there was more to the raise than purely performance.

When you start adding more people in to the decision, you add more people that would question THAT level of raise for what Woody did...only 2 short years after Dolson would have had to lay out the case for hiring Woody in the first place, and getting the o.k. for his contract.

Can you imagine any sort of CFO, or accountant, o.k.ing that level of raise...many, many times greater than already included performance incentives...for a guy that fell short of many of those performance incentives?

I've tried to negotiate raises for employees...to say they're heavily scrutinized for merit is an understatement.

 

[ams66]

Actually pay raises and bonuses are the responsibility of the Trustees.

In the sense that they would approve them, maybe. I doubt the Trustees are initiating pay raises for anyone except the President.

 

[Tammany Hall]

In the sense that they would approve them, maybe. I doubt the Trustees are initiating pay raises for anyone except the President.

That would be normal.

 

[IUNorth]

In the sense that they would approve them, maybe. I doubt the Trustees are initiating pay raises for anyone except the President.

Unless Dolson is trusted enough to just get rubber stamp treatment...any group of critical thinkers would raise many of the same questions we all have had about that raise.

Maybe he does have that trust? Maybe Buckner's role made it much easier?

I just know how raises are usually scrutinized in my profession, and I can't fathom getting Woody's pushed through on merit alone. There would have had to be some sort of position change involved, elevating the role of HC to a higher spot in the org chart, revenue sharing of some sort...etc...

Very possible its handled differently for them though, obviously.