The powers-that-be didn't think he could run the ship, hence the Fife and Matta hires. Basically, they thought Woody needed college basketball babysitters ... and they were right.
My current take on Woody...version 173 or so...
- Thread starter IUNorth
- Start date
Yes doctor....your diagnosis was spot on, but you have to be honest with the patient and tell him he's a goner.
I misunderstood your meaning. I though this was all in reference to big guard JHS
“And with more direction and purpose. Not a great combo. Even when you have a historically good big and lottery level guard like we did last year. It puts a hard cap on how good you can be, no matter the talent involved.”
I've repeatedly said it could get us headed back in the right direction.
Woody's team his first year was his best team, defensively. Dane likely had an impact on that. We're two years removed from having Dane...and well, our defense is horrid. How much better would we be, with even a remotely better defense this year?
Kansas win...larger margins of victory against cupcakes early on...probably a couple more B10 wins...
None of the things I'm suggesting make us a Natty contender next year. That's absurd to expect from anyone to go from where we are now, to that. And since Woody has been in charge for 3 years now, its more than fair to very strongly question whether he's the guy.
I'm just talking about what a Woody coached team could look like, next year. And its not as daunting a challenge as it feels like right now, is my theory.
Never once have I claimed to be batting 1000. Well written and thoughtful is a matter of opinion, though I'm certain he agrees with you. He's right WAAAYYY more than wrong is what we're told. I'll continue to respond to any post I choose. I don't need any unsolicited advice from someone one the internet I have never met. Thanks
Agree with you if what many think about Woody is true...that he's an old, stubborn, man, that isn't willing to change.
Just offering some possible optimism, that maybe he isn't that stubborn, and if he isn't, he can turn things back in the right direction.
It really isn't that big of a leap to entertain that possibility.
And at this point, I think for sanity's sake, it'd serve us all well to keep that option open in our minds. Because its unlikely he's going to get fired this year.
You do you. But try to remember this is an IU basketball fan forum. We are only here because we care. And we’re all hoping for at least one more magical season before our time on this rock runs out.
North wants the exact same thing you do and I do. A respectable program busting their ass for championships. His overall point in this thread might be sheer lunacy and time will tell. As always.
Because we all wear our Hoosierdom on our sleeves, I prefer to be civil - at least as often as possible.
I don’t think anything short of Xanax will help.
I am...
And I'm not right or wrong on this one yet... no one is.
My grade for the Woody hire...C+...probably wrong on the high side on that one, at this point. But I caught a ton of flack, from most on this board, for that being way too low a grade the first couple years.
My call on Braden Smith being "a problem" for the B10, 2 minutes in to his college career... Argued, at length, with basically our entire board on that one. Seems I might have been right.
My call about Woody's style of play being a problem, early in his first year...Argued, at length, with basically our entire board on that one. I think I was right.
My call last year, and then early this year that I didn't think Woody coached or focused on fundamentals...and that it would catch up to us. I think I was right.
My call last offseason that I thought X and Trey would form one of the better backcourts in the conference, so we didn't need to reach for portal guards. I was wrong on that one.
Not sure what other calls I've made...other than I called during the 2012/13 season that Crean wasn't the coach he appeared to be...Specifically after the Minny game in the barn.
I argued, early on in Archie's time at IU, that he was progressing well...mainly because his analytics were pretty strong...I was wrong about that one...but the whole Archie to Woody transition is part of the reason I'm not so ancy to run Woody out of town.
Very possible. I always prefer to look for rays of hope.
Woody changing his subbing patterns mid season is a ray of hope that he might be more open to change than it appears. And then the portal dynamics are another ray of hope. He could kick the entire team to the curb this year. And re fill it with portal guys and McNeeley, and we could be better...with him still coaching.
He won't "lose" everyone. We'll have some decent starting B10 level guys that will return. And there's tons of opportunity and potential in the portal. I'm not sure he's approached the portal before, how he'll likely be approaching it this offseason either...so I wouldn't shocked, at all, if we bring in a few really good portal guys. For them to be impact guards, he'll have to be able to sell a different style and approach...but he's already starting to make comments about "adding pieces", and stuff like that.
Turning things around does not equal B10 champ, Final Four, Natty levels of expectations next year. Just a return to the NCAA, more solid overall play, etc...
So your position is that he could have a better season next year (low bar) if he makes some changes including delegating fundamental coaching to competent assistants (who may have to be brought in).
Do you realistically think Dolson would put those conditions on him, and that he would be receptive?
I agree that he's probably not going to get fired this year. That's just my expectation, not an endorsement of his work this season, by the way.
It won't help our sanity to keep that option open in our minds, because there is no way in hell it's going to happen.
--First, its too late to right the ship given Woody's age given what needs to happen to the roster. 'Culture' needs time to develop.
--Second, there is zero indication that Dull Son has had any meaningful discussions with Woody concerning the state of the program. Have you seen any of that humility you're hoping to see from Woody to date? So the odds of Dull Son telling Woody what he needs to do going forward are slight. Do you think Woody has any respect for Dolson's opinions? Would Woodson make any of the changes you suggest on his own?
--There's too much change required. Whatever players that remain on the roster are already ruined. They could only be fixed by going to an entirely new system where they know none of the participants.
No!
I'm saying that if Dolson, in conversations and observations he's having with Woody, feels like Woody is willing and open to making some changes...that its not outlandish if he sticks with him. Maybe that judgment does come from conversations Dolson has with Woody about specific changes?...maybe its just a judgement he makes from general conversations he'll be having with him about the state of the program?...
IF he thinks Woody is aware of the problems, and is working to fix them...keeping him isn't an outlandish decision.
IF he isn't seeking that perspective, or IF he doesn't think Woody needs to change anything...then he's nuts, and we're phucked!
I want to look forward to IU basketball, so I'm choosing to keep my mind open to the possibility that Woody will be better.
***edit to add...ORRRRR, I'm hopeful that Dolson will realize, along with all the smart people on this board, that Woody isn't going to change, and that isn't acceptable...and he makes a change. Either way, I've got some hope for next season.
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This is the same Dull Son that fired Archie before everyone thought he would...and went hard after Stevens.
Also the same Dull Son that fired Allen before everyone thought he would...and seemingly made an incredible hire.
In my mind, he's batting 3/4. Its difficult to bat 1.000...but since he's 3/4, I do trust that he's thinking these things through fully, and is putting what's best for IU in to his decision making processes.
You're being overly dramatic on "ruined" players, and what not...one offseason of focusing on a handful of fundamental things, combined with 1 or 2 impact perimeter players, and we'd look like a completely different team.
Coaches change their styles and philosophies all the time. Woody might not, but its not an absurd notion that he might.
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Good thread. I'll add Dolson would certainly have solid ground to stand on considering he originally brought in 2 guys with coaching experience when CMS was hired, so he must have already suspected this may be a weak spot.
My own opinion is there's so much to correct right now it would inevitably lead to clashes that would be counter-productive. My own hope is CMW recognizes this isn't what IU expects and saves everyone face by resigning.
If the $1 mil raise was ostensibly due to performance then CMW should give 99.9% of it to TJD.
And that very well could be right.
I just don't think we're as far off as the NET ranking, wins and losses, horrible visual appearance, and only having McNeeley signed...make it look...damn! That does make it sound pretty bad!
But Woody coming back is more likely than not, is my best guess. So under that assumption...what's within the realm of possibility that would make our team better next year?
Need a few of our key guys to return. Malik, Trey, Gabe as rotation guys...Payton for post depth. I don't think this is unlikely, at all.
Need for Jakai to get healthy. He'll have been more than a year removed from surgery. Most elite level athletes are making full recoveries from pretty much any injury these days. I don't think this is unlikely either.
Need for Liam to stick with IU, and be a consistent perimeter player for us. Can't think of why this is unlikely.
Need to get a few more starter level guys in the portal. Every offseason Woody has been able to sign starter/rotation level guys. Not sure why he wouldn't this offseason. The main question is with his style of play his first 3 years, will he be able to sign any impact perimeter guys. That will determine quite a lot. And its a big question mark.
And then, need to be open to changing his style of play, how he coaches and teaches fundamentals, etc... He's had coaching changes in each of his seasons...why is it unlikely he would this offseason? He's also shown that he'll adjust and make changes on the fly, in each of his seasons. Why is it unlikely he will this offseason?
When you add them all together, it seems daunting. And it is. But none of the necessary changes, to make us NCAA tourney level competitive next year, on their own, are all that unlikely to happen.
I totally get the "kicking the can down the road" argument though.
Maybe I should make the stance clear, that if I were Dolson, I'd fire Dolson after this year.
I dont see us any better next year. Liam numbers will be near MM this year. MR will be Malik, zero depth and need about 4 guards in portal
You preferred Cupps to Smith before they made it to college. True story.
You're Jordan comments were factually incorrect and just dumb.
Your Woody stance isn't grounded in reality. He's proven what he is as a Coach. He's not going to suddenly change at age 65-66. Again dumb.
Woody's substitution patterns still aren't great.
Here are some facts for you. The easiest thing in the world is to make players play hard. Woody's team largely doesn't. His defensive philosophy guarding pick and rolls is terrible. Layup after layup isn't good defense. His offense lacks creativity and movement. His teams don't take advantage of the 3 pt line. Etc. Etc. Etc.
You can go on with your "well written" idiotic takes. I'll continue to call you on them. No matter how many times you say you are right WAAYYYY more than wrong, it doesn't make it so.
Have a good day.
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Woody is 66. He has had a 3 year tryout, and it hasn't been anything special. There are too many deficiencies and supporting stats to justify his system and tenure. Like many, I've seen enough: next man up.
Yea. I don’t think Malik is a lock to return either. Portal maybe.
This echoes CMW’s preseason victory lap about recruiting (I thought at the time and posted that he was full of s$$t) and so coordinated messaging. Sad the the AD would state this. It is evidence that regardless of Buckner he is clueless.
No way. The talent is immense. The only issue on this team is the coach. Yes, they need more shooting but that's due to the players not having a system that helps them create open looks.
fwiw - It's much harder to remove bad fundamental habits than to teach them from scratch. Exponentially harder ..
As far as skill set .. he doesn't have a set, he has one skill, the rest need a lot of work. On defensive, he's gotten much better than early in the season, so there's been some growth.
My very strong guess is that pay raise had a lot more to do with establishing the pay for IU's coaching position, and Woody's first two years were just used as justification. You'd never just say, we're making a market adjustment. Tammany, I think, schooled me on the incentives that were already in place for things like NCAA tournament, Final Four, etc... That's what Dolson thought about Woody at the time, and I think enough of all of Dolson's other decisions, including his attempt to surround Woody with guys like Matta and Fife, originally...to think that he thought that what Woody had done in his first two years warranted a near 30% pay raise.
No...I think he was establishing expectations. And possibly doing that because the department was doing well financially, and needed to make adjustments, for whatever reason.
Live in Charlotte and don't ever remember or believe Jordan was super active with the team and roster. Heck, I don't think he even lived here most of the time. You could argue that he was active as a GM/owner in roster/staff decisions and I couldn't argue but he rarely was at games even and then it dwindled from there. I don't think he was ever active enough in day to day operations to make any guesses as to how he'd have coached.
if In fact he was establishing departmental expectations then he established Top Ten performance as the reasonable expectation.
Woody saved Dolson's bacon, temporarily, by keeping TJD around two more years. The $1M is most likely a thank you note.
I wonder if the two of them have had any serious discussions about expectations about/concerns about this year., other than an occasional "How are things looking, coach?" Does Dolson frequently watch practice? If so, you would think that as a former Knight manager he would have some thoughts about how they are managed. I would bet he keeps his opinions to himself.
That's also due to the lineups Woodson used and how he used them. The bench is horrible, and should not have played long minutes. That has been proven by stats, game logs, the record, by analytic metrics and by watching.
Every game this year, we are either competing or ahead, the scrubs come in and the other team goes on a big run. Every f**king game .. it's not the individual the team as a whole falls apart on both ends of the floor ..
The higher efficiency of the starting group speaks for itself though it belies all the couch coaching on this board and no one wants to give any him any credit.. but the inefficiency of the bench is drastic... especially when two or more are in. It may just be the worst bench in all of basketball .. and they should not be getting much run.
Most of you are looking in the wrong places... the lineups caused more of this fiasco than any other single factor .. they not only caused IU to lose games, but skewed the metrics .. we were never going to be a great team, there's key pieces missing, but he screwed himself more with his approach to lineups ... and ignoring possession based basketball as a whole.
3-4 years ago, when they were both in high school? Ok, maybe? Gabe had led a team to a state title, and his AAU team to quite a lot of impressive wins over more talented teams. Smith was a very talented and dynamic offensive player, that had limited success leading teams to big wins/accomplishments.
The second I saw Smith in a college game, all that changed, and I said so. And even then, I still worry about his defense being solid enough to lead Purdue to their potential, which is a Natty. Doesn't mean he isn't a problem for the B10 if he falls short of that.
What's factually incorrect about my Jordan comments? You think he's been a good GM/Owner? Or are you still focusing on the coaching thing, solely? I remember watching an ESPN story on how Jordan was practicing with the Bobcats, sitting in on team meetings, overruling coaches regularly, etc... And then him acknowledging that why he doesn't coach, and why he backed off on all that, is he can't relate to the players.
Getting todays kids to play hard is easy, huh? Hmmm... No...its not. Its more difficult than its ever been.
His "nail" philosophy is fine. He just hasn't taught it well. That's where the awareness comes in. They should play a more simple switching man to man defense, without the overhelp principles. And complement that with some sort of 3-2 zone.
I've been on record, countless times, since his first handful of games his first season, that his offense isn't good. Where have you been? Its easy to call now, not so easy when we're sweeping Purdue, and making NCAA tournaments, and have a historically good big we're running things through.
I'll acknowledge when you "call me on something"...and are right. The Jordan thing, kind of...but the overall point, you're obviously wrong and are missing on that even.
I’m not giving him much credit for changing the substitution patterns. It became obvious to even the casual IU bball fans that the mass subbing was a big problem. It was all over social media. The analytics made it clear. There were likely multiple games lost because of it. He even made a comment that showed his irritation with fans and broadcasters being critical of it. He stubbornly hung onto a losing strategy. He changed it far too late. So rather than this being an example of how he might be salvageable. I think it is more an example of why he is not.
Definitely...and I don't know what Mack's coaching before he got to IU was like. It looks like he's never really been taught anything. And to your point, he is improving in some areas this year...but with how bad he looked the first month of the season, its difficult for me to believe Woody focused on defensive fundamentals all that much early on...when its essential that a coach does so.
Hes a decent shooter for his size, not as elite as some make him out to be, but good. And he has a nose for the ball around the basket. And I'd say he isn't a horrible ball handler for his size either. I wouldn't say he has "one skill". But would agree, with the NBA as a measuring stick, ALL of them need a lot of work.
Dude, he practiced with the damn team his first year or two as the GM/Owner. You must not have followed them all that closely.
Probably would have been much better off as a four ...
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