No doubt. A good point guard could've feasted this year with our inside players.
Ooo boy this is gonna get ugly.....as expected.
- Thread starter Carib04
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Explain why literally every guard this staff offered in the portal this last offseason said no? Because good guards don't want to play in a 1980's style offense featuring two post men. It's 2024
For his size, he can shoot from the outside. His shot, form, everything looks good. And he shot 33% from the 3 this year, not great, not bad. He could absolutely develop himself in to a more than adequate pick and pop guy, and/or a corner 3 guy, in the NBA.
But he won't get to show those things in the NBA, if he doesn't develop and/or show more applicable skills.
He sucked this year at some of those skills, to your point. My point, is he wasn't taught how to do them properly. He came in to college touted as a skilled big man, a guy that could pass very well, that could handle the ball away from the basket well. His overall "craftiness" was his biggest strength.
I've been slamming Woody's style, and use of his talented bigs, since early in Woody first season. I did it when TJD was putting up historic numbers. Because I knew it was holding him back, and it was holding the team back. Where were you?
I don't want ANY of the bigs to be anchored in the post. I want ALL of them to be forced to play multiple positions. To move more, and to strategically and opportunistically dive in the post and work without any other bigs clogging the lane area. If I've posted about that once, I've posted about it a thousand times.
And then defensively...teach them how to defend. Nail, switching, zones, presses, traditional man...I don't really care. Teach them the basic keep your man between you and the basket skills and principals.
Malik would absolutely be able to do those things against MOST college level 4's and 5s, if he were taught how to do it properly. And it'd help his NBA aspirations immensely.
I'm "worried" he'll see that Nate Oats, or Florida's coach, or whoever else have proven they can teach bigs how to do it better than Woody has. He'll leave, and we'll all be pissed off 3-4 years from now when Malik is playing in the NBA as a "modern" big that can hit outside shots and defend and rebound multiple positions.
Lol at Malik playing in Alabama's system. No offense to Malik, but he's the antithesis of an Alabama big in Nate Oats system. Alabama's big are all rim runners and who play above the rim and clean up misses. They don't play through big men....like at all.
I heard speculation here that it was the long shadow of X keeping guys away. ( lol, but I heard it)
Old style offense, the PG has to use the pick and roll. Or create the penetration and dump off. Plenty of PGs had assist numbers in the old NBA while still scoring.
There's an irony in all of this that was lost on me....Mike Woodson was a shooting guard at IU.....and a guard in the NBA. He was a guard his entire playing career. How did he manage to forget so much basketball?
Because Woodson happened to have a highly visible AA center from Indiana around who he did seem to have a connection with, and who he did seem to improve. Nothing else about those teams worked all that well, so that's what Woodson sold to get Ware. That was the only thing he had to sell, especially since its now clear that he is a quite lazy recruiter.
Had we had an equally visible AA PG from Indiana, and no center, Woodson would have sold himself as a PG whisperer and we wouldn't have been able to get any bigs.
We had a big (Reneau) who played out of position the entire year. Surround Reneau with 4 perimeter oriented players who rebound and defend their position well and we aren't talking about having the worst team since the early Crean era.
He was a small forward at IU. The majority of his shots were baseline jump shots and stop and pops...
That team had Jim Thomas, I. Thomas and Wittman at the guard positions.
Great glass half full view.
I think you are wrong, the culture created seems still an issue. But yours is a nice positive take.
I would take both MM and MR. I assume they are being offered to attend other schools with dollars attached. I also assume it is being done via third party so the schools, staff, etc can plausibly deny.
I think the culture issue was manufactured by a bunch of mouthpieces (looking at Rabjohns) disgruntled that the current staff wasn't giving them access they believed they were privy too. Simple as that. Despite not making the tournament, this team didn't quit and that's typically the tell all sign of a team with culture issues. I'll subscribe to culture issues once guys like Galloway, Leal, Reneau, etc jump off the ship. It doesn't appear that is going to happen.
Reality is that IU has a decent core coming back in MR, MM, and Galloway and has the NIL money to spend on a couple of good guards. IU is a tournament team with a good lead guard this last season, simple as that. Get two guards in the portal this offseason with continued with development from MM and MR and I don't think this team is in terrible shape, at least on paper. 6 wins and a roster that is going to resemble Crean's first year is extreme hyperbole if not out right hysteria.
If Ware leaves, I think Woodson will get another top tier center to replace him.
And if that is the case I hope the plan is for Reneau to look at other opportunities. Running out two traditional bigs like we have for the duration of Woodson's tenure isn't conducive to winning basketball, and a major turn off for good perimeter players.
I think Reneau will get more mobile this offseason, and stretch us out. If he improves as much as he did from year one to year two, we won’t get bogged down.
Had we had 3 quality perimeter players of the type you describe, I doubt Woodson would have played Ware, MR, and MM together. He would have gone with 2 of the 3 while resting the 3rd.
I think 95% of the coaches in the country would given their left nut to have Ware and MR on the same team, and would gladly have played both together, assuming they were the two best players on the roster. This is NOT a situation where you have two slow low skilled 7 footers. Ware and MR should have been great together and weren't, for a lot of reasons you neglect to consider.
Wrong yet again. These weren't two traditional bigs. Half the time Ware was stationed at the 3 point line.
You can LOL all you want.
This entire convo is about Malik's decision to stay or transfer.
1. If Malik puts his name in the portal, you don't think Alabama would reach out? They will, everyone will. And Oats would figure out how to effectively utilize Malik, I'm sure. They were just an example of a high level team, closer to home for Malik, that have been active building their rosters via the portal. Substitute any higher level team in the Southeast instead. Auburn maybe?
2. If Malik were to put his name in the portal, it would almost certainly be an attempt to find a program that he thinks will better prepare him for the NBA. Which is where this entire discussion started, for me anyways.
3. No one is going to "play through" Malik in the NBA. Unless you have Zach Edey, no college coach should be "playing through" big men in the post. Woody's insistence to "play through" TJD in the low post was so beneficial to him, that had Golden State not had the gumption to dig a little deeper beyond the tape, he would have went completely undrafted. Maybe Malik knows his professional career hinges on him being able to show that he can do things other than back a guy down, and spin and pump fake his way to layups?? And/or that his draft position depends on him showing he can extend and guard faster players on the perimeter, instead of just dropping in coverage, and getting a few more rebounds per game as a result.
I hope Malik stays. And I hope we get the Williams kid from Drexel. And I hope we get an assistant coach that can effectively teach our players how to defend all positions properly. And I hope we play both of them at the same time. And I hope neither of them spend large amounts of time parked in the lane. And I hope Malik continues to expand his game and makes modest improvements on his shot, and hits mid 30's percentage wise from the 3, on many more attempts. And I hope he cleans up some footwork and positioning issues guarding the perimeter, and is able to guard most college opponents "4" men.
None of these things are all that outlandish. And none of them involve parking Malik in the lane on either end of the floor unnecessarily. They do involve some real coaching though. And I think you and I probably are more in line on our challenges there, than this back and forth is making it look like.
Yeah Ware and Malik were so attractive together that literally every guard we offered said no. You still haven't explained that one yet. Waiting...
I did explain it. 38 minutes ago, You're having a bad afternoon at the 'puter.
They occupied the same area most trips down. Ware was good for a 3 point make every other game, congrats. There's no need to condense the court playing guys like Malik and Ware together. You won't find a title contending team who does this.
I don't understand how you can keep advocating for a system change and then out of the other side of your mouth claim you want Malik to continue to play alongside another big? Why can't Woodson maximize Reneau's talent as an undersized 5 around the rim, you know something he's good at, rather than forcing him to play out of position, out of role?
My understanding is that a HC has assembling a staff as priority #1. The position coaches are the ones that teach and develop bigs, guards, etc.
All staff from AD down to the managers help with recruiting, player connections, and hosting visits.
The HC is also the face of the program to the media, the fans, the university, and perhaps most important, the donors.
When I hear Woodson talk in pressors and podcasts , when he snaps at media asking questions, when I hear prior players consistently negative, when I see awful results, when we see wholesale portal entry, it becomes difficult to reach a positive outlook towards that particular HC.
I have no idea how successful the off season roster construction will be. But based on just observation, I worry that with or without roster success, we will not ever excel under Woodson.
All staff from AD down to the managers help with recruiting, player connections, and hosting visits.
The HC is also the face of the program to the media, the fans, the university, and perhaps most important, the donors.
When I hear Woodson talk in pressors and podcasts , when he snaps at media asking questions, when I hear prior players consistently negative, when I see awful results, when we see wholesale portal entry, it becomes difficult to reach a positive outlook towards that particular HC.
I have no idea how successful the off season roster construction will be. But based on just observation, I worry that with or without roster success, we will not ever excel under Woodson.
I'd be fine with that. I don't think Malik likely wants that. Depending on how he'd be used as that anchor 5 man. He has to know if he gets parked inside essentially, offensively and defensively, his NBA aspirations are either delayed, or gone.
Also, it feels like programs that are winning the most lately, have a "rim protector" type big. Malik will never be that kind of guy. But I see enough other skills in him, that I think he could be an effective 4 man...IF, big fat IF, he were coached adequately.
I think we have an evolving and fluctuating argument going here. Mainly I was focused on Malik's transfer decision, initially, not what's best for IU. But then I'm attempting to make the case that Malik becoming a "modern" NBA big that can play well inside and out, and along side someone with rim protecting length...would be the best thing for Malik AND for IU. UConn won a Natty last year with a couple of bigs, neither of them were all that fast laterally. Not exact comps, but if coached correctly, could be decent comparison.
But I have to admit, it is a big leap of faith in our coaching staff to get that out of Malik. I think he absolutely has the tools to become that sort of player. But if we were to get Williams from Drexel, the gravity will inevitably be to play he and Malik how they've played their 2 really good bigs in their first 3 years...which we all know hasn't worked...and I'd contend didn't even work for TJD...in terms of what his main focus was, which was getting drafted in the first round.
You don't think the BEST thing for IU would be for Malik to develop some more perimeter skills, that would enable him to play alongside someone like the Drexel big, without the lane ending up being clogged, and without us being grossly exposed defensively on the perimeter?
***Maybe I need to say this...Even if Malik comes back, and we don't sign another starter level big, I STILL think he needs to play away from the basket for longer stretches, and they should be working like crazy to improve his defense away from the basket. And if they do get someone like the Drexel guy, Woody should still be planning and preaching that he's playing 5 out, he's going to ask everyone to play multiple positions, wide open style, etc...
definitely not enough for him to keep his job, he wrote his resignation for next year if he fails to deliver on his promises coming into the job. he's blinded by the idea that a good starting 5 is all you need, and he's net even capable of constructing that. then there's the whole you know, coaching part. there's not much of a chance he can land, let alone build a good team out of the disjointed mess we saw all year. i think he'll resign/retire very soon.
You think if he wins 20 games, and makes the NCAA tournament, that he'll get fired?
That'd be 3 NCAAs out of 4. He'll have shown an ability to use the portal to "succeed".
I hope you're right. But I don't think you probably are. The bar seems to have been set. He made the NCAAs 2 out of 3 years. He wasn't fired. Not sure 3 out of 4 years does anything but improve his standing at IU.
There’s only one reason he made two NCAAs, that was because of TJD.
If he makes it next year with 2/3 new players from the portal...your argument is obsolete.
Luke Harangody (who I think is a very favorable player comp to Reneau) was a 2400 point career scorer as an undersized 5 playing around 4 perimeter players. He had the strength/footwork to maneuver around taller bigs and avoided double teams because teams weren't able to collapse. Jay Wright was very successful copying this blueprint for several years.
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Crazy but true. If we makes the tourney next year and it ends with a signature Woody blow out in the 1st or 2nd round, people will be celebrating the improvement and upward trajectory.
I don't actually. I watched him play the 4 almost exclusively this year and this was the most miserable season of fandom in 45 years of watching this program. He's not a perimeter player, period. And if he thinks that's what he need to play in order to play in the NBA then go play at Florida Gulf Coast or Stetson.
I acknowledge that it can be done, but not with Malik specifically. He can’t guard fives. He would foul out in the first half.
I would celebrate that because it would be improvement and upward trajectory. That’s how you rebuild the program. We haven’t been good in two decades.
You’re right. Woodson did a great job with him.
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