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Woody's path to success...

Add him to the list of returning guys then. And it becomes even more important to find a few really, really good 2 way players to fill in around MM, Malik, McNeeley, Newton, Cupps, etc...

And maybe Dolson can convince Woody that one of his primary roles over the next few years is to hire and cultivate the next IU coach. Learn from the Fife experiment. Allow Woody to be involved in the search, but make sure its a guy that fills some of Woody's blind spots or shortcomings.

I'm coming around to what next year's team "could" look like if we get a couple starter level perimeter players, and Woody gets the right kind of NBA caliber big.

Again...STRONGLY prefer a new coach...what I'm laying out is a lot of change, might as well just go get someone that already has proven to have a handle on all this stuff. But its just not likely to happen that way. And I want IU to win, no matter who's coaching. I think my path is "doable" for Woody. And he doesn't need to completely change himself, or become Bob Knight, for it to be successful.
I completely understand your mental efforts to find some way to have hope about next year if Woody is still in the big seat. Unfortunately, I think there’s a better chance Woody shows up next fall with that big Afro from his playing days.
 
1. Fire one of your recruiting assistants. Hire a proven head coach, that has taught similar philosophies to what you want IU to implement.

2. Resolve to change the roster makeup, and the overall focus and approach, to being a much more well rounded roster. Good guards, good wings, good bigs. And plan to play a style that utilizes all of them.

3. Sit down with the following kids...and give them your best, most convincing speech, about your above plans. Galloway, Cupps, Newton, Gunn, Reneau, Sparks...and McNeeley. With the goal of retaining all of them. On Galloway and Cupps...ensure them you're going after more perimeter players, so their roles will end up suiting their strengths. On Malik, ensure him your goal is to make him an NBA first rounder, and that you're going to be very selective on who you bring in to play with him.

4. Set out to build the rest of your team via late HS kids, and portal kids. Look for solid, 2 way players, winners...for most of the spots. You're efforts with TJD and Ware are going to get you in on some high level bigs, that have NBA aspirations. That's great. But if Malik is returning, be very selective about who you end up bringing in. It needs to be a very versatile player, that rebounds and defends all over the court at a high level. NOT someone that when you play him and Malik together, you're exposing everyone else on the court because of how you're going to ask them to defend, or how you're going to run the offense. So a "1 and done" type NBA talent big is fine, but make sure he's going to fit next to Malik. The rest of them need to be versatile, perimeter/wing oriented, players.

5. Scour and strive to find 2 perimeter oriented kids, that will be at IU for multiple years, that you know will come in and change how we play. I think Newton will do that, if healthy, but strive for a couple more. Harvard's point guard? Anyone like the Butler/Houston guards they've had recently. Someone like the Williams kid that transfer to Texas Tech, or like what McCullar was for Kansas a couple years ago. They're out there...every single year there are guys like that that end up at other schools. Make sure you get a couple of them to come to Indiana.

Number 1 is just a matter of doing it. There are probably 50 D2, D3, NAIA, older guys nearing or just retired, that would fit that description. Woody is an old dude, who cares if its a younger guy that will be a "threat" in a year or two.

Number 2 is just a matter of doing it, and resolving and forcing it to happen.

The rest...work your ass of to get all of what I wrote, but know that if you fall short in some of the areas, you'll have had enough successes that you'll have a good, solid, well balanced roster, that you can win with for the next couple years.
playing devil's advocate here....been another long work week.

I don't know, that sure sounds like a lot of work.
If I'm in my mid 60s, already set financially, with my best buddy running cover for me on the BOT, and knowing I have a 7 or 8 digit golden parachute waiting for me next year regardless....do I really have the drive to do everything you mentioned?

There is a lot of work to do, to get this program where CMW said he wanted to take it (B1G and National championships). Words are cheap. I have not often seen the day-to-day drive in him to convince me he is the man for the job.

I am hoping he proves me wrong. But my CEO always reminds us. "HOPE...is not a strategy".
 
I completely understand your mental efforts to find some way to have hope about next year if Woody is still in the big seat. Unfortunately, I think there’s a better chance Woody shows up next fall with that big Afro from his playing days.
Some things just do not work out. It was clear after a couple years that was the situation with archie and it is the same now. There is reason many people were stunned we hired an nba coach with zero college experience. It never works out is why. It worked out a couple years for Juwauan Howard but he had phil martelli right next to him ont he sideline helping him. Now it has all gone to h... and Juwauan is probably done. He had good recruits at first but it dropped off fast just like woodsons recruiting is dropping off, and both need very high talent to win imo.
 
More likely to transfer. Can’t imagine he’s enjoyed being on a shitty team, getting boo’d by the fans, in a town where you were arrested earlier in the year, without much evidence next year will be better.
Maybe he can get a plea deal of some sort that includes house arrest. They slap an ankle monitor on him that prevents him from leaving Monroe County. Problem solved.
 
All these changes sound like keeping the status quo to me.

Your list is logical, but doesn’t it get blown to bits when you throw in the fact that you want to piece together a team with last years players, plus late signees and portal players-all to grind out 2 more yrs with MW?

This house has been built on sand.

What you are laying out may be a ticket to a better team next year, but it ignores any program building. You even admit as much:

“Woody is an old dude, who cares if its a younger guy that will be a "threat" in a year or two”.

I keep reading these posts and they seem shortsighted at best. They sound great for Woody, and may bring short term stability, but we need to rebuild the foundation. And not with someone that will be here for 2 years, doesn’t have a college basketball coaching background or philosophy, and with a group patched together for a year or two.
The title was "Woody's path to success".

If IU brings him back for next year, I'm not so certain that isn't a sign they're prepared to bring him back for multiple more years. We've had pretty mediocre coaches since Knight for longer than 4 years. Any semblence of success/improvement next year, and he's back for a 5th year, I'm sure.

So...what can WOODY do to find success?

I think we have some decent pieces to build around. IF he resolves to add the right kinds of players around them.

If he were to somehow be able to land a kid or two that are in any way similar to guys like Butler or Mitchell were at Baylor a couple years ago, or Shead or Cryer at Houston, or Newton at UConn...And or if he were able to land anyone like Williams at Texas Tech, Shannon for Illinois...

And if he sends Ware to the NBA, he's going to get looks and attention from bigs with legitimate NBA aspirations and abilities.

Starting PG...Jamaal Shead type player
Starting 2G...LJ Cryer type player, maybe a player like the kid from Harvard
Starting 3...McNeeley
Starting 4...Malik
Starting 5...Athletic 3 and D type NBA level big man, that compliments Malik well

Galloway, Cupps, Newton coming off the bench.

That team, without ANY changes by Woody, would be better than this years team, and probably push for an NCAA tournament at large.

Start allowing improvements to the coaching staff, Woody fully embracing a new style, etc... and its not a stretch that we'd see dramatic improvements.

I'm not predicting any of this will happen. I don't think its likely. I'm just trying to provide some framework for how Woody COULD be successful at IU.
 
The title was "Woody's path to success".

If IU brings him back for next year, I'm not so certain that isn't a sign they're prepared to bring him back for multiple more years. We've had pretty mediocre coaches since Knight for longer than 4 years. Any semblence of success/improvement next year, and he's back for a 5th year, I'm sure.

So...what can WOODY do to find success?

I think we have some decent pieces to build around. IF he resolves to add the right kinds of players around them.

If he were to somehow be able to land a kid or two that are in any way similar to guys like Butler or Mitchell were at Baylor a couple years ago, or Shead or Cryer at Houston, or Newton at UConn...And or if he were able to land anyone like Williams at Texas Tech, Shannon for Illinois...

And if he sends Ware to the NBA, he's going to get looks and attention from bigs with legitimate NBA aspirations and abilities.

Starting PG...Jamaal Shead type player
Starting 2G...LJ Cryer type player, maybe a player like the kid from Harvard
Starting 3...McNeeley
Starting 4...Malik
Starting 5...Athletic 3 and D type NBA level big man, that compliments Malik well

Galloway, Cupps, Newton coming off the bench.

That team, without ANY changes by Woody, would be better than this years team, and probably push for an NCAA tournament at large.

Start allowing improvements to the coaching staff, Woody fully embracing a new style, etc... and its not a stretch that we'd see dramatic improvements.

I'm not predicting any of this will happen. I don't think its likely. I'm just trying to provide some framework for how Woody COULD be successful at IU.
Then don’t have to recruit an entire new roster the following year? That’s putting band aids on a bullet hole
 
The title was "Woody's path to success".

If IU brings him back for next year, I'm not so certain that isn't a sign they're prepared to bring him back for multiple more years. We've had pretty mediocre coaches since Knight for longer than 4 years. Any semblence of success/improvement next year, and he's back for a 5th year, I'm sure.

So...what can WOODY do to find success?

I think we have some decent pieces to build around. IF he resolves to add the right kinds of players around them.

If he were to somehow be able to land a kid or two that are in any way similar to guys like Butler or Mitchell were at Baylor a couple years ago, or Shead or Cryer at Houston, or Newton at UConn...And or if he were able to land anyone like Williams at Texas Tech, Shannon for Illinois...

And if he sends Ware to the NBA, he's going to get looks and attention from bigs with legitimate NBA aspirations and abilities.

Starting PG...Jamaal Shead type player
Starting 2G...LJ Cryer type player, maybe a player like the kid from Harvard
Starting 3...McNeeley
Starting 4...Malik
Starting 5...Athletic 3 and D type NBA level big man, that compliments Malik well

Galloway, Cupps, Newton coming off the bench.

That team, without ANY changes by Woody, would be better than this years team, and probably push for an NCAA tournament at large.

Start allowing improvements to the coaching staff, Woody fully embracing a new style, etc... and its not a stretch that we'd see dramatic improvements.

I'm not predicting any of this will happen. I don't think its likely. I'm just trying to provide some framework for how Woody COULD be successful at IU.
Yes, and that’s how I read it. I’m just wondering if success for Woody is helpful or harmful to the IU basketball program’s future.
 
Then don’t have to recruit an entire new roster the following year? That’s putting band aids on a bullet hole
Agree in all likelihood...but to counter...

Under my scenario...4 out of the 8 main contributors would be returning players. And 1 of them is a current recruit.

And if either/both the starting guards would have multiple years of eligibility, that'd bring some more stability. That would allow us to have 3 returning high level guys, with Cupps and Newton off the bench. And if he sent a couple guys to the NBA in Malik and whoever my hypothetical center would be...he'd be in on many talented bigs again the following year.

Its not nearly as ominous a challenge as it seems. Woody has landed talented, highly coveted and sought after kids, in the spring recruiting cycles. He just needs to bring in the RIGHT kids this year.
 
Yes, and that’s how I read it. I’m just wondering if success for Woody is helpful or harmful to the IU basketball program’s future.
I don't buy into "Suck for Luck" types of strategies, even in pro sports where there is a tangible benefit at the end of it.

In college, put your best foot forward, always try to win and improve...

Obviously I get the point you're making. And I've posted many times I want IU to be a Natty contender again. And possibly like you, I don't think Woody has that in him, no matter how much he improves.

But I can't get myself to the point where I think the best thing for IU is for them to suck. If I knew, for certain, who the next hire was going to be...like you do in an NFL draft type scenario, maybe. But that doesn't seem possible right now. So...might as well be good and enjoy it more.
 
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Agree in all likelihood...but to counter...

Under my scenario...4 out of the 8 main contributors would be returning players. And 1 of them is a current recruit.

And if either/both the starting guards would have multiple years of eligibility, that'd bring some more stability. That would allow us to have 3 returning high level guys, with Cupps and Newton off the bench. And if he sent a couple guys to the NBA in Malik and whoever my hypothetical center would be...he'd be in on many talented bigs again the following year.

Its not nearly as ominous a challenge as it seems. Woody has landed talented, highly coveted and sought after kids, in the spring recruiting cycles. He just needs to bring in the RIGHT kids this year.
I am not sold that is a sound strategy. Recruit and develop. Woody needs veterans that can create a culture.
 
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I don't buy into "Suck for Luck" types of strategies, even in pro sports where there is a tangible benefit at the end of it.

In college, put your best foot forward, always try to win and improve...

Obviously I get the point you're making. And I've posted many times I want IU to be a Natty contender again. And possibly like you, I don't think Woody has that in him, no matter how much he improves.

But I can't get myself to the point where I think the best thing for IU is for them to suck. If I knew, for certain, who the next hire was going to be...like you do in an NFL draft type scenario, maybe. But that doesn't seem possible right now. So...might as well be good and enjoy it more.
Where did I say anything about losing?

I said we need to rebuild the foundation of the program. And I asked: If we bring MW back for 2 seasons, even if we are better is that good or bad for the long term health of the program?

I understand that the unknown is stressful. Stability with real improvement may sound appealing. But, maybe it’s better to rebuild from the ground up? And, even if we opt for bringing him back (and everything works out like you hope for), it’s possible we still have to rebuild everything anyhow.
 
Add him to the list of returning guys then. And it becomes even more important to find a few really, really good 2 way players to fill in around MM, Malik, McNeeley, Newton, Cupps, etc...

And maybe Dolson can convince Woody that one of his primary roles over the next few years is to hire and cultivate the next IU coach. Learn from the Fife experiment. Allow Woody to be involved in the search, but make sure its a guy that fills some of Woody's blind spots or shortcomings.

I'm coming around to what next year's team "could" look like if we get a couple starter level perimeter players, and Woody gets the right kind of NBA caliber big.

Again...STRONGLY prefer a new coach...what I'm laying out is a lot of change, might as well just go get someone that already has proven to have a handle on all this stuff. But its just not likely to happen that way. And I want IU to win, no matter who's coaching. I think my path is "doable" for Woody. And he doesn't need to completely change himself, or become Bob Knight, for it to be successful.
uh, a hard no to that
 
The title was "Woody's path to success".

If IU brings him back for next year, I'm not so certain that isn't a sign they're prepared to bring him back for multiple more years. We've had pretty mediocre coaches since Knight for longer than 4 years. Any semblence of success/improvement next year, and he's back for a 5th year, I'm sure.

So...what can WOODY do to find success?

I think we have some decent pieces to build around. IF he resolves to add the right kinds of players around them.

If he were to somehow be able to land a kid or two that are in any way similar to guys like Butler or Mitchell were at Baylor a couple years ago, or Shead or Cryer at Houston, or Newton at UConn...And or if he were able to land anyone like Williams at Texas Tech, Shannon for Illinois...

And if he sends Ware to the NBA, he's going to get looks and attention from bigs with legitimate NBA aspirations and abilities.

Starting PG...Jamaal Shead type player
Starting 2G...LJ Cryer type player, maybe a player like the kid from Harvard
Starting 3...McNeeley
Starting 4...Malik
Starting 5...Athletic 3 and D type NBA level big man, that compliments Malik well

Galloway, Cupps, Newton coming off the bench.

That team, without ANY changes by Woody, would be better than this years team, and probably push for an NCAA tournament at large.

Start allowing improvements to the coaching staff, Woody fully embracing a new style, etc... and its not a stretch that we'd see dramatic improvements.

I'm not predicting any of this will happen. I don't think its likely. I'm just trying to provide some framework for how Woody COULD be successful at IU.

Then don’t have to recruit an entire new roster the following year? That’s putting band aids on a bullet hole
When you have to fill your roster via the portal year after year it is not a recipe for success. The top teams simply do not have to fill their team from the portal . They load up in the fall.
 
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When you have to fill your roster via the portal year after year it is not a recipe for success. The top teams simply do not have to fill their team from the portal . They load up in the fall.
See PU recruiting class.
 
See PU recruiting class.
The portal is meant for one or two guys to plug a few holes not fill 75% of your roster. Kansas State did it one year in their coach's first year nobody is doing it in year four except us that I can see. Still amazing to we that woodson could only land one recruit las fall when he had like five open grants.

Just heard the assembly call guys said he wold have to hit four or five grand slam guys in the portal to be good next year. That means he wil have to beat out the top teams in the country not once but four to five times.
 
The portal is meant for one or two guys to plug a few holes not fill 75% of your roster. Kansas State did it one year in their coach's first year nobody is doing it in year four except us that I can see. Still amazing to we that woodson could only land one recruit las fall when he had like five open grants.
I got blasted on here when I was questioning going after Fland, Harper, Queen, Liam as our class. You have to have depth and a core to build off. Not recruit a bunch of one and dones with NIL money and no care of winning or losing.
 
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I got blasted on here when I was questioning going after Fland, Harper, Queen, Liam as our class. You have to have depth and a core to build off. Not recruit a bunch of one and dones with NIL money and no care of winning or losing.
I was told how smart it was to save the grant last spring because 2024 was going to be monster class for woodson. And all I heard from people like rajohns was we are in on more top 50 players then ever in IU history. But this is not for participation trophies we only got one of them when we had like five open spots. Now we scramble to fill a roster based on what may be available this spring. Unreal.
 
I got blasted on here when I was questioning going after Fland, Harper, Queen, Liam as our class. You have to have depth and a core to build off. Not recruit a bunch of one and dones with NIL money and no care of winning or losing.
I mean if you are good enough to get enough of them like Kentucky or Duke it can be a strategy but not at Indiana. Woodson is not good enough to get enough of them or even close. You need three or four of these guys a year for the strategy to work.
 
I mean if you are good enough to get enough of them like Kentucky or Duke it can be a strategy but not at Indiana. Woodson is not good enough to get enough of them or even close. You need three or four of these guys a year for the strategy to work.
Exactly.
 
Have you listened to his interviews?
Yes, once in awhile but I don't deal in conjecture or assumption, nor do I know the future, am not one of many facial expression/body language experts.. and certainly can't read minds. fwiw every mind reader I've met has been completely FOS..
 
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there is no way that kid will ever be a lottery pick, that is just crazy. I say he never plays in the NBA, the freshman he went head-to-head with from Wisconsin for about a 4-minute stretch, don't even know his name abused MM on both ends. Romeo Langford would question his motor.
That's what I said.
 
Yes, once in awhile but I don't deal in conjecture or assumption, nor do I know the future, am not one of many facial expression/body language experts.. and certainly can't read minds. fwiw every mind reader I've met has been completely FOS..
Doesn’t mean I am claiming to be a mind reader when I guess what someone might do based on their actions as coach the last three years.

Woodson has not done a good job. Maybe he will have an epiphany and change. We will see next year.
 
It's just that by year 3 you should start the see the coach's beliefs and strategies taking hold and even if not W's should see some signs of improving play. I haven't seen much of a good sound strategy on offense that makes it tough on other teams and we have looked pretty lost on D and fundamentals. No signs of "good" coaching and habits. Counter that with Penn St who I thought looked inspired and played hard, even having lost their leading scorer who was dismissed from the team. Time will tell, but that looks like a coach that has a plan and who kids want to play hard for.
Yes. And times have changed. The fact that previous failing coaches were given more years should not be a major factor in the Woodson decision. Cutting the cord from those previous coaches was a tougher decision because rebuilding with a new coach meant that you were kind of starting from scratch building a winning roster. So you had to put a lot of weight on the pain of starting over. Not so any more. In today’s environment, the dynamics of the decision are quite different. One perspective that decision makers can use is to simply ask where the program might be with Woodson over the next 2 years vs where it could be with someone else. You have to think that an objective view of this perspective would not favor Woodson.
 
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1. Fire one of your recruiting assistants. Hire a proven head coach, that has taught similar philosophies to what you want IU to implement.

2. Resolve to change the roster makeup, and the overall focus and approach, to being a much more well rounded roster. Good guards, good wings, good bigs. And plan to play a style that utilizes all of them.

3. Sit down with the following kids...and give them your best, most convincing speech, about your above plans. Galloway, Cupps, Newton, Gunn, Reneau, Sparks...and McNeeley. With the goal of retaining all of them. On Galloway and Cupps...ensure them you're going after more perimeter players, so their roles will end up suiting their strengths. On Malik, ensure him your goal is to make him an NBA first rounder, and that you're going to be very selective on who you bring in to play with him.

4. Set out to build the rest of your team via late HS kids, and portal kids. Look for solid, 2 way players, winners...for most of the spots. You're efforts with TJD and Ware are going to get you in on some high level bigs, that have NBA aspirations. That's great. But if Malik is returning, be very selective about who you end up bringing in. It needs to be a very versatile player, that rebounds and defends all over the court at a high level. NOT someone that when you play him and Malik together, you're exposing everyone else on the court because of how you're going to ask them to defend, or how you're going to run the offense. So a "1 and done" type NBA talent big is fine, but make sure he's going to fit next to Malik. The rest of them need to be versatile, perimeter/wing oriented, players.

5. Scour and strive to find 2 perimeter oriented kids, that will be at IU for multiple years, that you know will come in and change how we play. I think Newton will do that, if healthy, but strive for a couple more. Harvard's point guard? Anyone like the Butler/Houston guards they've had recently. Someone like the Williams kid that transfer to Texas Tech, or like what McCullar was for Kansas a couple years ago. They're out there...every single year there are guys like that that end up at other schools. Make sure you get a couple of them to come to Indiana.

Number 1 is just a matter of doing it. There are probably 50 D2, D3, NAIA, older guys nearing or just retired, that would fit that description. Woody is an old dude, who cares if its a younger guy that will be a "threat" in a year or two.

Number 2 is just a matter of doing it, and resolving and forcing it to happen.

The rest...work your ass of to get all of what I wrote, but know that if you fall short in some of the areas, you'll have had enough successes that you'll have a good, solid, well balanced roster, that you can win with for the next couple years.
How about finding a coach who can already do these things? Woodson can't.
 
He has almost no defensive game but offensively he is averaging 14.3ppg over the last 12 games and 16 ppg in the last 4 games. As his minutes picked up, so did his production. That is going to turn heads as far as projecting his future talent; however, his production has naturally been limited simply due to foul trouble on the defensive end. If he can figure out how to turn his liability (defense) into an asset, he could easily be a lottery pick. Will he able to do that? I don't see it but it's not a pipe dream.
Mgbako is shooting too much for his low percentage, and he plays defense like someone who just found out defense was a "thing". He would be coming off the bench if McNeely was already here.
I'll give him a break for being a hard working, well-grounded freshman. (Tongue in cheek).
 
Mgbako is shooting too much for his low percentage, and he plays defense like someone who just found out defense was a "thing". He would be coming off the bench if McNeely was already here.
I'll give him a break for being a hard working, well-grounded freshman. (Tongue in cheek).
I’ve never seen a worse defender. AAU is bad but I thought you would have to play some defense in your high school years. He is so upright and slow with no instincts (including rebounding). Crazy.
 
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Mgbako is shooting too much for his low percentage, and he plays defense like someone who just found out defense was a "thing". He would be coming off the bench if McNeely was already here.
I'll give him a break for being a hard working, well-grounded freshman. (Tongue in cheek).
Agreed, that's what I said. I wish he had a coach.
 
I like Woody and my heart is breaking for him this year, because I think it's likely that without injuries this might well have been an NCAA tourney team. But he's in his 60s, and I think his hire was based on the hope that he could turn the program around in 3-4 years. That hope is now probably gone, and kids don't want to go to a school where they're not sure how long the coach will be around. So IU should be making plans to find someone younger when Woody departs. We can only hope that things will turn around next year.
 
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