Make Canada Great Again
- Thread starter dbmhoosier
- Start date
Hahha...the little bitch is in major political danger, and NOW decides to pause in his crusade to destroy the country formerly known as Canada...
It’s pretty remarkable how much immigration politics have shifted in the past several years.
Yes and no. The narrative always was its good for countries economies. However, that is a bullshit. Almost all immigration is a net negative for developed nations, with large safety nets. And it’s especially bad for the working class people living in the country.
You just said immigration. I think we should have a lot of immigration.... But it should be done a much more deliberate and intentional manner. Not the free for all we have now.
Not that the past is predictive of the future in all cases, but our most productive citizens are probably descended from people who came over in a free for all. I only say that to suggest that when it comes to the value of a particular immigrant, we have to consider future generations, as well.
Sure. My great grandfather came over in a mass migration. Through Ellis Island.
In the US, immigrants consume less social welfare per capita than native born. Often, much less:
There is nothing that prevents us from changing our safety net laws to block immigrants from full access for 5 years (or any other number) to eliminate that concern. We could require 5 years of work before becoming a citizen.
I do not know when your family arrived but there is a damn good chance people did not want them here. Since its founding, this country has had a real love/hate relationship with immigrants.
I appreciate the link and was curious how they came up with their claims. Immigrants consume less because the study includes SS/Medicare and their younger on average and/or not immediately available for those programs. The study also didn’t measure other social costs, chiefly education. The state of Indiana spends around 10,000 a year on each child for example.
I agree and they should be from Northern Europe like it was before the immigration act of 1965. F LBJ.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at?
We most likely disagree on the amounts.
I agree, but don’t see how that would ever be accomplished. You would have to purposely target higher educated people, which wouldn’t fly in today’s political environment.
We will pay $10,000 per child for native. We need children, they drive the economy more than anything. They provide future workforce.
As to Social Security, older people can immigrate. They just are not going to pay much or any in. So they will not get much, or any, out.
Well, we are experiencing the results of his "great society" legislation.
Student loans and cost of education being another great example.
LBJ wanted to be the second coming of FDR.
As Uncle Milton (who was generally a vocal advocate of immigration) pointed out, the question of how beneficial immigration is to a society needs to be examined through a lens of their productivity balanced against their consumption of social welfare benefits.
There is a lot of data on this question and, to my reading of it, it’s a mixed bag and not nearly as clear cut as it was in the late 19th and early 20th centuries…when our welfare state wasn’t anywhere near the size it is now.
In the below video, he says that illegal immigration is better than legal immigration, because they don’t qualify for most public benefits.
I would say, anecdotally, that my observed experience is that these folks tend to have pretty robust work ethics.
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Again, going to the security net, we can set rules. People coming in are given a green card and not allowed any safety net for 5 years before they can become citizens. That's just one way we can solve the issue. There are other ways. Some welfare, like TAMF, have a time maximum.
We need people at various skill levels. We know we are woefully short on migrant farm workers:
America has a farming crisis
Bipartisan lawmakers propose reforms to the H-2A visa program to combat the U.S. farming crisis, targeting the labor shortage.
www.newsweek.com
Those are not jobs Americans are lining up for. And to attract Americans, we are probably going to need to pay more since the average wage is now $18.00, and we have shortages. How much more?
The good history of America is that people come here and work hard in lower-skilled jobs but their kids move up the socio-economic level.
We talk about the money spent now to care for these refugees. If we let them work while their case is being heard, they wouldn't need as much public support.
I worked in a microbiology lab for the 2nd largest egg producer in the country.
Almost all production people were Hispanics. Guess what, they had identification and social security numbers. How else do you fill out an I-9 form. That would allow them access to benefits too.
How did they get them? They buy their identification from identity theives
We know that plants raided in 2019 never checked the I-9 information:
A PH Food employee, acting as a confidential informant, told Homeland Security investigators that the vast majority of the 240 employees at PH's plant in Morton and the 80 employees at A&B's plant in Pelahatchie didn't have proper work documents, including many Guatemalans.
The informant said employees used their real names and made-up Social Security numbers to apply for jobs at PH and A&B. "The payroll companies, as well as PH Food Inc. and A&B Inc. do not verify the authenticity of their documents," the informant told investigators. Mississippi state law requires employers to check documents using E-Verify, an otherwise voluntary online federal system.
Chicken Processing Plant Owners 'Willfully' Used Illegal Workers
Investigators behind the biggest immigration raid in a decade relied on informants inside the plants and data from electronic monitoring bracelets.
www.foodmanufacturing.com
Canada's political pendulum swings a cycle behind ours. Harper was their GWB, Trudeau is their Obama. There's a Trumpy type leading the Conservatives, and Trudeau is trying to head him off at the pass. May or may not work.
There are still plenty of illegal immigrants that have the information they need to gain access to benefits.We know that plants raided in 2019 never checked the I-9 information:
A PH Food employee, acting as a confidential informant, told Homeland Security investigators that the vast majority of the 240 employees at PH's plant in Morton and the 80 employees at A&B's plant in Pelahatchie didn't have proper work documents, including many Guatemalans.The informant said employees used their real names and made-up Social Security numbers to apply for jobs at PH and A&B. "The payroll companies, as well as PH Food Inc. and A&B Inc. do not verify the authenticity of their documents," the informant told investigators. Mississippi state law requires employers to check documents using E-Verify, an otherwise voluntary online federal system.
Chicken Processing Plant Owners 'Willfully' Used Illegal Workers
Investigators behind the biggest immigration raid in a decade relied on informants inside the plants and data from electronic monitoring bracelets.
Yeah, I'm under no illusions about any of that.
Formally, illegal immigrants don't qualify for many benefits (especially federal benefits). Realistically, I'm sure there are lots of them who get them. That's no different than any other public assistance programs -- be it SNAP, TANF, SS/Medicare, Medicaid, or PPP....there is almost certainly a significant level of fraud. How much is anybody's guess.
We don't know how many plenty is. And there are also "plenty" who pay taxes though they will never be eligible for Social Security. It is believed most people who file using a taxpayer ID number instead of Social Security are illegally in the country. The belief is that if they have a work history and pay taxes it will help them if the opportunity to become citizen every arises.
Undocumented immigrants quietly pay billions into Social Security and receive no benefits - Marketplace
How much? About $13 billion in 2016.
The ones that have been here working. Above or under the table. Decade plus. No criminal history. I’d like to see amnestyWe don't know how many plenty is. And there are also "plenty" who pay taxes though they will never be eligible for Social Security. It is believed most people who file using a taxpayer ID number instead of Social Security are illegally in the country. The belief is that if they have a work history and pay taxes it will help them if the opportunity to become citizen every arises.
Undocumented immigrants quietly pay billions into Social Security and receive no benefits - Marketplace
How much? About $13 billion in 2016.www.marketplace.org
Correct, but there are extra costs most times with immigrants, because they’re ML students. Also, a larger percentage of society is having their child’s education subsidized than SNAP.
Crazed alluded to a better way to measure it. My personal preference would be setting the benchmark of how much someone needs to make in income to be a net gain for society. The cynic in me says they don’t because most immigrants fall below. I assume you have to be in the top third or so because a majority of taxes are paid by the top 10% of society.
Societal benefits are FAR FAR more than taxes paid. There was a time in the US we celebrated the "common man". It sees a lot of us only want to celebrate the rich and powerful, all the while complaining about the elite.
We need migrant farm labor. We need custodians. We need unskilled workers.
Unskilled Labor Shortage in the US and Immigrant Workforce
Learn more about the unskilled labor shortage in the U.S and discover how immigrants help bridge the gap and contribute to the labor market's vitality.
www.nexaworkforce.com
This started before COVID
The US is experiencing a widespread worker shortage. Here’s why.
Retail and restaurant workers are more in demand than tech workers.
www.vox.com
Here is a story on how low-skilled immigrant labor more than pays for itself:
No, Low-Skilled Immigrants Don’t Cost Taxpayers Money
According to new research, even less skilled migrants to the US have a net fiscal benefit of about $750 each.
www.bloomberg.com
From that, one way lower-skilled labor can make native Americans wealthier:
These new measures do not deny the standard assessments of the potential fiscal costs of immigrants. Rather, they consider an additional positive factor: namely, that low-skilled immigrants enable native workers to move into higher-wage jobs, and in some cases to work more hours. That may occur through a number of channels, some of them highly complex and hard to measure, but most simply recall Adam Smith’s maxim that the division of labor is limited by the extent of the market.
To view this more concretely, consider working parents who would choose more demanding and higher-paying jobs if cheaper and more convenient child care, which typically requires only a high school diploma, were available. If a new immigrant provided that care, those parents would be able to earn more money — and would pay more taxes.
If you have kids, you know how expensive childcare is.
We know that immigrants work migrant labor cheaper than native. Do you want to pay more for food?
I miss the days when we celebrated the common man (or woman) in America and not the 1%.
Love that ELP number.Societal benefits are FAR FAR more than taxes paid. There was a time in the US we celebrated the "common man". It sees a lot of us only want to celebrate the rich and powerful, all the while complaining about the elite.
We need migrant farm labor. We need custodians. We need unskilled workers.
Unskilled Labor Shortage in the US and Immigrant Workforce
Learn more about the unskilled labor shortage in the U.S and discover how immigrants help bridge the gap and contribute to the labor market's vitality.
This started before COVID
The US is experiencing a widespread worker shortage. Here’s why.
Retail and restaurant workers are more in demand than tech workers.
Here is a story on how low-skilled immigrant labor more than pays for itself:
No, Low-Skilled Immigrants Don’t Cost Taxpayers Money
According to new research, even less skilled migrants to the US have a net fiscal benefit of about $750 each.
From that, one way lower-skilled labor can make native Americans wealthier:
These new measures do not deny the standard assessments of the potential fiscal costs of immigrants. Rather, they consider an additional positive factor: namely, that low-skilled immigrants enable native workers to move into higher-wage jobs, and in some cases to work more hours. That may occur through a number of channels, some of them highly complex and hard to measure, but most simply recall Adam Smith’s maxim that the division of labor is limited by the extent of the market.To view this more concretely, consider working parents who would choose more demanding and higher-paying jobs if cheaper and more convenient child care, which typically requires only a high school diploma, were available. If a new immigrant provided that care, those parents would be able to earn more money — and would pay more taxes.
If you have kids, you know how expensive childcare is.
We know that immigrants work migrant labor cheaper than native. Do you want to pay more for food?
I miss the days when we celebrated the common man (or woman) in America and not the 1%.
I can't access the article, but the numbers don't add up. I call bullshit. Also, I'd gladly trade higher food prices for lower healthcare, education, and housing prices.Societal benefits are FAR FAR more than taxes paid. There was a time in the US we celebrated the "common man". It sees a lot of us only want to celebrate the rich and powerful, all the while complaining about the elite.
We need migrant farm labor. We need custodians. We need unskilled workers.
Unskilled Labor Shortage in the US and Immigrant Workforce
Learn more about the unskilled labor shortage in the U.S and discover how immigrants help bridge the gap and contribute to the labor market's vitality.
This started before COVID
The US is experiencing a widespread worker shortage. Here’s why.
Retail and restaurant workers are more in demand than tech workers.
Here is a story on how low-skilled immigrant labor more than pays for itself:
No, Low-Skilled Immigrants Don’t Cost Taxpayers Money
According to new research, even less skilled migrants to the US have a net fiscal benefit of about $750 each.
From that, one way lower-skilled labor can make native Americans wealthier:
These new measures do not deny the standard assessments of the potential fiscal costs of immigrants. Rather, they consider an additional positive factor: namely, that low-skilled immigrants enable native workers to move into higher-wage jobs, and in some cases to work more hours. That may occur through a number of channels, some of them highly complex and hard to measure, but most simply recall Adam Smith’s maxim that the division of labor is limited by the extent of the market.To view this more concretely, consider working parents who would choose more demanding and higher-paying jobs if cheaper and more convenient child care, which typically requires only a high school diploma, were available. If a new immigrant provided that care, those parents would be able to earn more money — and would pay more taxes.
If you have kids, you know how expensive childcare is.
We know that immigrants work migrant labor cheaper than native. Do you want to pay more for food?
I miss the days when we celebrated the common man (or woman) in America and not the 1%.
As for the common man, embracing immigration (at large scale with our government size), social programs, and larger governments doesn't benefit the common man. It eventually eliminates the common man and middle class. By the way, the reason I'm a Bitcoin is because the entire point of it is to benefit the middle class and common man.
That's good. I'll guarantee you big players are making far more on bitcoin than you ever will. Look at the huge owners in Bitcoin:
U.S. Debt by President: Dollar and Percentage
The national debt has increased under most U.S. presidents. Here is how much each president's time in office added to the U.S. debt by percentage and dollar amounts.
The creator has 968,000 bitcoins. That is what, about 1/20th the total supply of bitcoins? 1.86% of addresses own 90% of bitcoin:
U.S. Debt by President: Dollar and Percentage
The national debt has increased under most U.S. presidents. Here is how much each president's time in office added to the U.S. debt by percentage and dollar amounts.
It is hard to take financial control from the elites when the vast majority is owned by, you guessed it, the elites.
Oh, bitcoin mining is very energy intensive, raising everyone's cost for energy and causing problems:
Texas paid Bitcoin company $175k an hour to stop using energy during winter blackout
Computers at the Bitcoin mine were using enough electricty to power 6,500 homes
www.the-independent.com
Also:
Between bitcoin and AI, we are heading for a grid collapse. It isn't just power (as some are sure to attack Biden somewhere), it is transmission.
I don't know why we wouldn't want to celebrate them both. Productivity and prosperity happen by the marriage of labor and capital. And I've always thought that capital is far more efficiently allocated by its owners than it is by any 3rd party -- especially politicians who (like all of us) are more motivated by their own interests than they are anybody else's.
I've always said that I'd much rather Warren Buffett's $150B be in his hands, put to productive use by somebody who is incredibly adept at finding the most gainful ways to allocate capital, than for it to be in the hands of a legislature that is doling out money based largely on the influence of lobbyists, campaign donations, and campaign strategists.
Of course, any developed, well-functioning society is going to need taxes to fund a sound system of government. And it stands to reason that the distribution of taxes is going to be reflective of the distribution of wealth and income. But I believe strongly that we'd have a better and more prosperous society if government stayed in its lanes and intervened as little as possible in the commercial activities of its citizens.
I always liked the way Mitch Daniels put this in his terrific speech to CPAC, back when CPAC was a sane event:
We believe it wrong ever to take a dollar from a free citizen without a very necessary public purpose, because each such taking diminishes the freedom to spend that dollar as its owner would prefer. When we do find it necessary, we feel a profound duty to use that dollar as carefully and effectively as possible, else we should never have taken it at all.
Anyway, I've never been one to view society as being divided between haves and have-nots. I also think that it's just flat out wrong to have the mindset of "the rich get richer, the poor get poorer." Down those roads lie the scourges of envy and class warfare -- which never end well for societies.We shouldn't fret inequality -- because we shouldn't look at equality of outcome as a social goal. None of us are necessarily made poorer by billionaires getting wealthier at a faster rate than we are...even if the gap between us may widen.
Why do I care if other people are making more money than myself? Bitcoin isn't a zero sum game. The only thing that is important is if goods and services are getting cheaper in Bitcoin, which they are. Bitcoin, unlike the current debt base system, allows more of the productivity gains to flow back to all of us. The natural the state of the free market is deflationary, Bitcoin is showing that. Eventually, the median house will cost 1/10th of Bitcoin (which is what the common man cares about) as long as we continue to be more productive.That's good. I'll guarantee you big players are making far more on bitcoin than you ever will. Look at the huge owners in Bitcoin:
U.S. Debt by President: Dollar and Percentage
The national debt has increased under most U.S. presidents. Here is how much each president's time in office added to the U.S. debt by percentage and dollar amounts.www.investopedia.com
The creator has 968,000 bitcoins. That is what, about 1/20th the total supply of bitcoins? 1.86% of addresses own 90% of bitcoin:
U.S. Debt by President: Dollar and Percentage
The national debt has increased under most U.S. presidents. Here is how much each president's time in office added to the U.S. debt by percentage and dollar amounts.
It is hard to take financial control from the elites when the vast majority is owned by, you guessed it, the elites.
Oh, bitcoin mining is very energy intensive, raising everyone's cost for energy and causing problems:
Texas paid Bitcoin company $175k an hour to stop using energy during winter blackout
Computers at the Bitcoin mine were using enough electricty to power 6,500 homes
Also:
Between bitcoin and AI, we are heading for a grid collapse. It isn't just power (as some are sure to attack Biden somewhere), it is transmission.
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