Jeff Goodman on Big Ten

[blockm2]

He started a lot as a freshmen last year on a team that went to the final four so he is not that terrible.

Ah, the old "the team did good so every player on it has to be so good" argument. I'm not buying it. In the NCAA tournament he averaged about 16 minutes a game, went 2-10 from the field and 5-9 at the FT line. His totals in the 5 games were 9 points, 10 assists, 11 turnovers, 9 rebounds, 2 steals, and 11 fouls. He also was not good defensively.

MSU won in spite of him, not because of him. Leaning on him even more next year is not going to be good for them.

 

[IU Scott]

Ah, the old "the team did good so every player on it has to be so good" argument. I'm not buying it. In the NCAA tournament he averaged about 16 minutes a game, went 2-10 from the field and 5-9 at the FT line. His totals in the 5 games were 9 points, 10 assists, 11 turnovers, 9 rebounds, 2 steals, and 11 fouls. He also was not good defensively.

MSU won in spite of him, not because of him. Leaning on him even more next year is not going to be good for them.

So you don't think he can improve over the summer like a lot of freshmen do and improve his game.

 

[SIBoiler2]

Didn't Crean coach IU to a conference title in the strongest BigTen of the past decade?

I would likely argue that Crean didn't "coach" that team to the B1G title. He had a team on the floor that his coaching couldn't keep from winning the title. His aid/interference would not deter their abilities and cohesiveness.

 

[S.Walker]

I tend to agree that the Pat Knight and Sherron Wilkerson incidents were not done with a whole lot of malice. I think I was at the Pat Knight incident game. Nonetheless, a pattern of behavior was established.

I will suggest that I am pretty sure the Neil Reed incident was available on video at one time.

I also think that Puerto Rican authorities sought extradition of RMK in the hitting of the cop incident, but I was really young when that happened so I can't be sure. Maybe someone can chime in on that.

I loved the guy, but in retrospect, he was unequivocally an a-hole.

The Puerto Rico thing was nothing but Puerto Rican separatists trying to embarrass the U.S. The U.S. Men's team had the gym and an off-duty Puerto Rican cop tried to bully the U.S. coaches and force the team out of the practice site. IIRC, he pushed Knight, who pushed away the cop's arm and inadvertently stuck the cop's eye with his finger. All of the U.S. players and coaches - including Kyle Macy from UK - vehemently defended RMK and said he was not at fault. He was tried in absentia by a kangaroo court. There was talk of extradition, but nothing ever developed because there was no case.

 

[blockm2]

So you don't think he can improve over the summer like a lot of freshmen do and improve his game.

Anybody can improve. He just has to improve a LOT more than just about any other player in the conference that is being counted on to play a big role on a contender.

I mean what is he, maybe the 10th best PG in the conference next year?

IMHO PG is the single most important position on the floor in modern CBB and you can't win big without great PG play.

 

[DanL53]

Anybody can improve. He just has to improve a LOT more than just about any other player in the conference that is being counted on to play a big role on a contender.

I mean what is he, maybe the 10th best PG in the conference next year?

IMHO PG is the single most important position on the floor in modern CBB and you can't win big without great PG play.

Eron Harris. Tum Tum could very well improve and still find himself on the bench.

 

[blockm2]

Eron Harris. Tum Tum could very well improve and still find himself on the bench.

I agree. I just don't think much of Harris as a PG. If I was Izzo I'd play Valentine as a point forward with Forbes and Harris on the wing. Nairn is just too much of a liability on both ends.

 

[DanL53]

I agree. I just don't think much of Harris as a PG. If I was Izzo I'd play Valentine as a point forward with Forbes and Harris on the wing. Nairn is just too much of a liability on both ends.

I haven't seen Harris at point, but going off of several reports I am interested to see what he can do. You have a point about Valentine, if he can finally put "Sleepy" Valentine to rest and cut down on the turnovers, 167/92 assists to turnovers last year, 144/69 the year before, he could make any point guard for Michigan State look better just by being on the same court.

And since this is the Big Ten's Franchise Program we're talking about...we know they'll get every break.

 

[340duster340]

Eron Harris based on persistent comments during practices last year was the best player MSU had.
Izzo worked him quite a bit at the point. He is quicker, bigger, more athletic( by far) and a better shooter than Trice is.
Costello was hobbled by a bad knee that really became an issue late last year. He had it scoped and is just now beginning to get up to speed. Expect big things from him as a senior, likely 11 and 7 type guy.
A big addition many are forgetting about is Javon Bess. Earned a starting spot last year as a frosh, then went down pretty much the whole season with a foot injury. Outstanding rebounder and defender, solid handles and perimeter game. Will likely start this season. Think a mini Dawson with a perimeter game.
Deyonta Davis will help immediately on the glass and defensively, less so offensively.
Nairn is working diligently on a perimeter shot, if it becomes even passable he will take a big step forward. Already named a captain along with Valentine.
MSU will have a much higher ceiling than last years team, but not sure I would put them above Maryland.
That said, Maryland and MSU meet only once next season, and it's in East Lansing.
The Spartans will benefit by playing some elite competition in late August over in Italy on a 10 day trip. Expect them to be ahead of normal early on regards non conference play.

 

[ufo33]

1. Maryland
2. IU
3. MSU
4. Purdue
5. Wisconsin
6. Michigan
7. Iowa

 

[340duster340]

MSU also gets Indiana only at Breslin.

 

[IU Scott]

MSU also gets Indiana only at Breslin.

I think the top will be like this
1) MSU
2) Maryland
3) Purdue
4) Wisconsin
5) IU

 

[boiler1987]

1. Maryland
2. IU
3. MSU
4. Purdue
5. Wisconsin
6. Michigan
7. Iowa

Really don't think you'll be better than MSU.

 

[340duster340]

I think something like

Terps/ MSU.
IU
UM
Wisky/ Purdue

Teams are going to pack it in on Purdue, not sold on the Boilers perimeter shooting keeping teams honest
Indiana will have excellent and experienced guard play, Michigan not quite as good because no quality big.

 

[blockm2]

The Spartans will benefit by playing some elite competition in late August over in Italy on a 10 day trip. Expect them to be ahead of normal early on regards non conference play.

Which elite teams will they be playing in Italy? I ask because Michigan thought they had some good competition lined up in Italy last year and ended up playing terrible opponents.

 

[340duster340]

Senior national teams from Russia, Georgia, and Italy all in Trieste. Then a fourth game in Florence.
These games will all be right before Euroball 2015, where these teams will be competing for the 2016 Olympics.
Stout Competition.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

I would likely argue that Crean didn't "coach" that team to the B1G title. He had a team on the floor that his coaching couldn't keep from winning the title. His aid/interference would not deter their abilities and cohesiveness.

Good grief

 

[boilergrad2OOO]

Why did Harris transfer? Not like he wasn't getting minutes at W. Virginia. Must be some reason.

Did I fail to mention IU in damn good shape.

This. Don't forget about the Positive impact Harris leaving WVU had on the team. with him scoring 17 pts a game their record was 17-16. Their record last year WITHOUT him was 25-10. Addition by subtraction. I heard an interview with Huggins on the radio and he was so much happier without him. Didn't mention is name of course but said everying but. talked about team chemistry, leadership, unselfishness, ball movement, etc.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Bo ryan can basically take any five players and make the top four. It is amazing.

Maybe Crean could go to one of Bo's coaching seminars instead of a Notre Dame football seminar. That'd be a start. You know why I hate Bo? Because he f*cking wins all the time and we're usually on the losing end of those wins. That's why I hate him. Right now we have a coach that no one hates except for our own fans. You know it's bad when you have a coach that other schools hope you keep. Like when Illinois had Bruthie Bruce I wanted him to get a lifetime contract.

 

[Bill4411]

The Puerto Rico thing was nothing but Puerto Rican separatists trying to embarrass the U.S. The U.S. Men's team had the gym and an off-duty Puerto Rican cop tried to bully the U.S. coaches and force the team out of the practice site. IIRC, he pushed Knight, who pushed away the cop's arm and inadvertently stuck the cop's eye with his finger. All of the U.S. players and coaches - including Kyle Macy from UK - vehemently defended RMK and said he was not at fault. He was tried in absentia by a kangaroo court. There was talk of extradition, but nothing ever developed because there was no case.

Does anyone remember Bob Knight's own televised hearing where he had testimony from his players and himself about what happened? That hearing was conducted in Indiana? It was very strange to say the least as a warrant was out for his arrest in Puerto Rico, a US territory no less and had his own trial instead.

 

[Zizkov]

You can do all the creative math you want, but they still under-picked IU. And, IU also had roster reductions to deal with during the season.

And that's what's so worrisome. CTC is being given props for 7th. The bar is too low. A potted plant could meet the bar.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Does anyone remember Bob Knight's own televised hearing where he had testimony from his players and himself about what happened? That hearing was conducted in Indiana? It was very strange to say the least as a warrant was out for his arrest in Puerto Rico, a US territory no less and had his own trial instead.

I do, I recall Coach K being part of the reenactment. IIRC it was a press conf rather than a hearing, but there may have been a second event you refer to. Knight did a lot of things over the years that were out of line, but everyone in that gym in PR with the exception of that cop to this day tell the same story that exonerates Knight.

 

[boilerzz]

I think something like

Terps/ MSU.
IU
UM
Wisky/ Purdue

Teams are going to pack it in on Purdue, not sold on the Boilers perimeter shooting keeping teams honest
Indiana will have excellent and experienced guard play, Michigan not quite as good because no quality big.

Quick trivia question. Among last year's sophomore class, who made more 3 pointer in his first two seasons than any other player nationally? Hint, he's also on pace to set the Purdue record for career three pointers made despite dealing with injuries each of his first two seasons.

 

[blockm2]

Quick trivia question. Among last year's sophomore class, who made more 3 pointer in his first two seasons than any other player nationally? Hint, he's also on pace to set the Purdue record for career three pointers made despite dealing with injuries each of his first two seasons.

The answer to the first question is probably Zak Irvin who is 139/363 so far in his career. Kendall Stephens is probably runner up at 137/363 in his career. Your hint is incorrect, however, in that he plays for Michigan and not Purdue.

As for Purdue's outside shooting as a team, they did manage to rank 238th nationally in 3 point percentage and 12th in the Big Ten during conference play. They also shot even fewer than most ranking only 270th nationally in percentage of their points derived from 3 pointers. Definitely not a strength of the team.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

The answer to the first question is probably Zak Irvin who is 139/363 so far in his career. Kendall Stephens is probably runner up at 137/363 in his career. Your hint is incorrect, however, in that he plays for Michigan and not Purdue.

As for Purdue's outside shooting as a team, they did manage to rank 238th nationally in 3 point percentage and 12th in the Big Ten during conference play. They also shot even fewer than most ranking only 270th nationally in percentage of their points derived from 3 pointers. Definitely not a strength of the team.

That may be true, I don't care enough to look it up, but the point is made that with a fully healthy Stevens and a couple other kids they have that can shoot including the Cline kid coming in: I don't expect them to be at the bottom of that statistic this year. A lot of teams will pack it in on their big men and hope for the best from the arc.

 

[blockm2]

That may be true, I don't care enough to look it up, but the point is made that with a fully healthy Stevens and a couple other kids they have that can shoot including the Cline kid coming in: I don't expect them to be at the bottom of that statistic this year. A lot of teams will pack it in on their big men and hope for the best from the arc.

They have a small number of shooters. The "problem" if you care about that sort of thing, is they aren't going to be playing lineups with multiple shooters at the same time. 30% shooters Vince Edwards and Raphael Davis are going to play heavy minutes. Hammons and Haas and Swanigan are also going to play heavy minutes.

They are likely to have no more than 1 good shooter on the floor for the majority of most games. So while it's nice to have more than just Stephens that can hit a 3, it doesn't help if those other shooters are on the bench when Stephens is on the floor. Purdue is quite unlikely to field a lineup that will feature multiple deep threats on the court together for lots of minutes.

Matt Painter has shown that he is perfectly fine playing lineups that can't shoot from outside. It doesn't seem to bother him. He cares more about defense and rebounding.

 

[Bill4411]

I do, I recall Coach K being part of the reenactment. IIRC it was a press conf rather than a hearing, but there may have been a second event you refer to. Knight did a lot of things over the years that were out of line, but everyone in that gym in PR with the exception of that cop to this day tell the same story that exonerates Knight.

It was interesting to say the least but most people would have just kept quiet and not handled it the way Knight did. I'm sure his attorney was beside himself as for years Puerto Rico tried to extradite him back for trial. I guess that is why he was so fascinating as you never knew what might happen next.

 

[Boilermaker03]

They have a small number of shooters. The "problem" if you care about that sort of thing, is they aren't going to be playing lineups with multiple shooters at the same time. 30% shooters Vince Edwards and Raphael Davis are going to play heavy minutes. Hammons and Haas and Swanigan are also going to play heavy minutes.

They are likely to have no more than 1 good shooter on the floor for the majority of most games. So while it's nice to have more than just Stephens that can hit a 3, it doesn't help if those other shooters are on the bench when Stephens is on the floor. Purdue is quite unlikely to field a lineup that will feature multiple deep threats on the court together for lots of minutes.

Matt Painter has shown that he is perfectly fine playing lineups that can't shoot from outside. It doesn't seem to bother him. He cares more about defense and rebounding.

What you may not know is that Raphael shot about 14% (2 of 14) from 3 during the out of conference slate and shot 35% (16 of 46) in conference play. Ok, it's not earth shattering but it should make a defense at least respect his shot. I'd also be shocked if Vince didn't significantly improve his shooting %. He is a very skilled individual.

Edit: Full disclosure I stated at first he shot 43% in conference but I went back and check my numbers and I was wrong. Oops

 

[blockm2]

What you may not know is that Raphael shot about 18% from 3 during the out of conference slate and shot nearly 43% in conference play. Yes he only averaged about 30% for the year but it was mostly because of the early season struggles. I'd also be shocked if Vince didn't significantly improve his shooting %. He is a very skilled individual.

What you apparently don't know is that Davis shot 30% on 3s OOC last year and 38% (13/34) on 3s in conference last year. Pretty much just a sample size issue, though. He's at 29.4% for his career behind the arc so seems a bit unlikely he'll be anything near 40% next season.

 

[Boilermaker03]

What you apparently don't know is that Davis shot 30% on 3s OOC last year and 38% (13/34) on 3s in conference last year. Pretty much just a sample size issue, though. He's at 29.4% for his career behind the arc so seems a bit unlikely he'll be anything near 40% next season.

Yeah if you see my response I corrected it. I think Davis could be a mid to high 30% shooter. Like I said, not earth shattering but should be enough to make defenses play honest on him. If that's the case it's only going to open up the inside more, which will be the main focus of Purdue's offense.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

They have a small number of shooters. The "problem" if you care about that sort of thing, is they aren't going to be playing lineups with multiple shooters at the same time. 30% shooters Vince Edwards and Raphael Davis are going to play heavy minutes. Hammons and Haas and Swanigan are also going to play heavy minutes.

They are likely to have no more than 1 good shooter on the floor for the majority of most games. So while it's nice to have more than just Stephens that can hit a 3, it doesn't help if those other shooters are on the bench when Stephens is on the floor. Purdue is quite unlikely to field a lineup that will feature multiple deep threats on the court together for lots of minutes.

Matt Painter has shown that he is perfectly fine playing lineups that can't shoot from outside. It doesn't seem to bother him. He cares more about defense and rebounding.

They only need one designated shooter on the floor at a time to help loosen up the defense of the bigs. They also have a kid named Mathias that can shoot. That is at least three and they only need one that is having a reasonable outing.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

What you apparently don't know is that Davis shot 30% on 3s OOC last year and 38% (13/34) on 3s in conference last year. Pretty much just a sample size issue, though. He's at 29.4% for his career behind the arc so seems a bit unlikely he'll be anything near 40% next season.

Davis is not who Painter will have parked on the arc. Davis is on the floor for his defense.

 

[blockm2]

Davis is not who Painter will have parked on the arc. Davis is on the floor for his defense.

I agree. My point is they will likely have 4 non shooters on the floor at a time so bragging about kids on the bench that can shoot really won't help.

 

[blockm2]

They only need one designated shooter on the floor at a time to help loosen up the defense of the bigs. They also have a kid named Mathias that can shoot. That is at least three and they only need one that is having a reasonable outing.

Why do they "only need one that is having a reasonable outing"? Is there some magic that gets accomplished in offensive flow when you have 1 player on the floor that can shoot? I've yet to see it. Either the team is good shooting or they aren't. 1 guy that can shoot is easy for the D to defend without compromising their rotations elsewhere. It's when you have 3 or 4 shooters on the court it gets a lot tougher to defend.

 

[blockm2]

Yeah if you see my response I corrected it. I think Davis could be a mid to high 30% shooter. Like I said, not earth shattering but should be enough to make defenses play honest on him. If that's the case it's only going to open up the inside more, which will be the main focus of Purdue's offense.

Davis, a career 29% 3 point shooter, has as much chance of shooting mid to high 30%s next season as any other bad shooter in the country. It can happen based on nothing more than a small sample size. Should you expect it? Probably not.

 

[GodFamilyCountryPurdue]

Davis is not who Painter will have parked on the arc. Davis is on the floor for his defense.

Yet he averaged 15 per game against IU last year on 70% shooting. Ouch...

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Why do they "only need one that is having a reasonable outing"? Is there some magic that gets accomplished in offensive flow when you have 1 player on the floor that can shoot? I've yet to see it. Either the team is good shooting or they aren't. 1 guy that can shoot is easy for the D to defend without compromising their rotations elsewhere. It's when you have 3 or 4 shooters on the court it gets a lot tougher to defend.

Talking in the context of PU s make up next year. They are going to have 3 or 4 guys that can score. In that offense you only need one one the arc ( which they did not have last year) to make things more difficult in the way teams will want to play them. Hope that helps.

 

[Boilermaker03]

Davis, a career 29% 3 point shooter, has as much chance of shooting mid to high 30%s next season as any other bad shooter in the country. It can happen based on nothing more than a small sample size. Should you expect it? Probably not.

He's shown in spurts that he can. Two years ago in conference play @ 38% (according to you) and last year @ 35% in conference play. I'd say that's mid to high 30's.

 

[blockm2]

He's shown in spurts that he can. Two years ago in conference play @ 38% (according to you) and last year @ 35% in conference play. I'd say that's mid to high 30's.

Yes, anybody can do that. A 30% shooter long term will probably make at least 4/10 shots probably 40% of the time, but they will rarely make 40/100. It's simple math. Davis shooting "35% in conference play two years ago" was 7 made shots (7/20). Small samples. He hasn't "shown in spurts that he can", he's simply had random variation around his true talent level that occasionally spikes up.

My point is it is unlikely Davis becomes a good outside shooter. 37/126 in his career. Can he go 2/5 in a game? Of course. Can he go 40/100 next season? Probably not.

 

[blockm2]

Talking in the context of PU s make up next year. They are going to have 3 or 4 guys that can score. In that offense you only need one one the arc ( which they did not have last year) to make things more difficult in the way teams will want to play them. Hope that helps.

Did they not already have 1 good shooter on the floor last year? Stephens was 35/98 in conference play.