Is this something (Nordstream)

[IUCrazy2]

Origin = Russia. Do we trust them to do that?

They and maybe the Germans would be the ones working on it. I suppose this could be some Russian 5D chess or something but I don't think Goat's potential scenario where Russia did this makes much sense.

Logically IMO, the Russians would want to have these pipelines online. It was their one big economic trump card they were going to be able to play this winter. With the pipelines destroyed or offline in a manner that is out of their hands, they lost their most effective weapon against countries like Germany to turn public opinion. The Germans couldn't get the gas turned on now even if they wanted to. God, nature, fate, a state actor, or whomever just took out Russia's most potent bullet over the next several months. The Russians should want those pipelines repaired as soon as possible because failure to do so over a longer term will have those European countries finding alternatives out of necessity. Once those alternatives are firmly in place, people become acclimated to the status quo.

This is a long winded way of saying the Russians have every motivation to turn that line off and not do anything that would delay repair.

If someone sees things differently, I am all ears. I just don't see how the Russians sabotaging themselves would appear to advance their goals, but I am open to hearing anything I may be missing.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

What's the threat of the Nordstream pipes blowing up again? Seems to me that's the first order of bidness . . . gotta protect the work crews . . . .

Underwater? Threat should be zero. Explosions require a certain amount of free oxygen.

 

[twenty02]

🧐

U.S. “Leadership” should remain “cool, calm, and dry” on the SABOTAGE of the Nord Stream Pipelines. This is a big event that should not entail a big solution, at least not yet. The Russia/Ukraine catastrophe should NEVER have happened, and would definitely not have happened if I were President. Do not make matters worse with the pipeline blowup. Be strategic, be smart (brilliant!), get a negotiated deal done NOW. Both sides need and want it. The entire World is at stake. I will head up group???
@realDonaldTrump

Quit posting this incoherent drivel....TIA.

 

[twenty02]

Seriously, does anyone have any insight into how long it would take to repair these leaks? That's a key piece of data we need to have.

I think they built the entire Nord 1 pipeline in like 9 months.... so can't imagine it would take all that long to complete a repair.

 

[IUCrazy2]

NATO, EU leaders: We'll retaliate for energy-related sabotage -- and we're looking at you, Russia

hotair.com

Maybe I wouldn't make a good Putin because, as I pointed out above, this doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[IUINSB]

NATO, EU leaders: We'll retaliate for energy-related sabotage -- and we're looking at you, Russia

hotair.com

Maybe I wouldn't make a good Putin because, as I pointed out above, this doesn't make much sense to me.

Don't sell yourself short, Craz.
TIC

 

[IUCrazy2]

Don't sell yourself short, Craz.
TIC

I haven't quite reached my megalomaniacal dictator potential...

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I think they built the entire Nord 1 pipeline in like 9 months.... so can't imagine it would take all that long to complete a repair.

That's reassuring. So if Putin really did do this, the cost to him was very little. Perhaps nothing, really, since it was so unlikely the pipes would be in use this winter.

 

[sglowrider]

I think they built the entire Nord 1 pipeline in like 9 months.... so can't imagine it would take all that long to complete a repair.

Plus it isnt that deep. 80-110m only

 

[sglowrider]

Its still a head-scratcher for me. Why blow up your own pipelines? Did he think he could do some sort of false flag ops? Cant accuse the Ukrainians of it since they don't have any subs.

 

[TomEric4756]

View embedded media

Its still a head-scratcher for me. Why blow up your own pipelines? Did he think he could do some sort of false flag ops? Cant accuse the Ukrainians of it since they don't have any subs.

Especially in the Baltic.

 

[sglowrider]

Especially in the Baltic.

Either Putin has lost his marbles from some sort of vascular dementia or he is playing some kind of 5D chess that's beyond most of us mortals.

 

[sglowrider]

Fourth leak found on Nord Stream pipelines, Swedish coast guard says​

"Two of these four are in Sweden's exclusive economic zone," coast guard spokesperson Jenny Larsson told the paper late on Wednesday. The other two breaches are in the Danish exclusive economic zone.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Either Putin has lost his marbles from some sort of vascular dementia or he is playing some kind of 5D chess that's beyond most of us mortals.

It's not that complex. I already gave you the answer.

 

[IUCrazy2]

It's not that complex. I already gave you the answer.

Russia controls the gas flow though. All he has to do is turn it off. They had already basically done that.

 

[sglowrider]

Russia controls the gas flow though. All he has to do is turn it off. They had already basically done that.

Plus if he left it turned off and the Europeans land up freezing their asses in the winter, thousands of elderly folks and kids die.... questions will be asked whether it's worth supporting the Ukrainians.
The pressure will be kicked upstairs to the various EU leaders to cave in and get the heating back on.

 

[sglowrider]

All the different possibilities:

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Russia controls the gas flow though. All he has to do is turn it off. They had already basically done that.

That's got nothing to do with it. It's about sending Europe a subtle message about Russia's military capabilities.

 

[IUCrazy2]

That's got nothing to do with it. It's about sending Europe a subtle message about Russia's military capabilities.

I guess, but maybe I am too rational to play the 5D chess.

"Stop stealing my candy."

"No. And just because you won't let me, I revoke your right to use my Playstation."

"Well, that is kind of shitty, guess I will make do with my old Nintendo."

"You going to let me steal the candy again and shut up about it?"

"No."

"Okay then, you are making me do this. (smashes Playstation to bits) See what I am capable of? Gonna let me take that candy now?"

"I see you are capable of idiotically breaking the only thing that makes me want to interact with you and my answer is still no."

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I guess, but maybe I am too rational to play the 5D chess.

"Stop stealing my candy."

"No. And just because you won't let me, I revoke your right to use my Playstation."

"Well, that is kind of shitty, guess I will make do with my old Nintendo."

"You going to let me steal the candy again and shut up about it?"

"No."

"Okay then, you are making me do this. (smashes Playstation to bits) See what I am capable of? Gonna let me take that candy now?"

"I see you are capable of idiotically breaking the only thing that makes me want to interact with you and my answer is still no."

That's not it. And it's not complicated at all. Russia can only turn off pipes it controls. But they can sabotage any pipe. That's what they want Europe thinking about. It's not about Nordstream at all. Nordstream is irrelevant.

Look at Norway. They got the message.

 

[IUCrazy2]

That's not it. And it's not complicated at all. Russia can only turn off pipes it controls. But they can sabotage any pipe. That's what they want Europe thinking about. It's not about Nordstream at all. Nordstream is irrelevant.

Look at Norway. They got the message.

Almost anyone with a Navy can hit those lines though. All you need is the right kind of WW2 era depth charges. Those lines were not that deep.

I get why you are saying they did it, it just doesn't make sense to me. The world knew they had that capability. They didn't prove anything other than they are crazy (stupid) enough to break their own stuff to prove a point. It would be like the U.S. firing a cruise missile at an oil field in Alaska and saying, "See what we can do?"

It makes "sense" but it is crazy.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Almost anyone with a Navy can hit those lines though. All you need is the right kind of WW2 era depth charges. Those lines were not that deep.

I get why you are saying they did it, it just doesn't make sense to me. The world knew they had that capability. They didn't prove anything other than they are crazy (stupid) enough to break their own stuff to prove a point. It would be like the U.S. firing a cruise missile at an oil field in Alaska and saying, "See what we can do?"

It makes "sense" but it is crazy.

Nordstream was never going to be turned back on any time soon. It's increasingly sounding like it might never be turned on. So the cost of "breaking their own stuff" was nil.

Like I said, Norway is paying attention. They are most likely the actor the stunt was performed for. So whether you get it or not, it did the job.

 

[Eurocyldon]

My devil's advocate question is how would Putin benefit from sabotaging his own pipelines though? He can simply turn off the gas tap if he wants to make the germans/Europeans suffer this winter. We must be missing some vital piece of information.

Or its a false flag operation and an indication of more such acts across Europe?

But having just watched From Russia with Love (again), I have a suspicion it's Spectre. They are trying to get both sides to fight each other.

We may never know who did it but Sleepy Joe didn't help himself bragging back in February he could end the pipeline without explaining how. My guess is Joe doesn't have the balls to do it. More likely, Putin did it so he can escalate the war in Ukraine. He just annexed four regions of Ukraine. He's got the draft going in Russia. He's recently referred to using nukes. If he sabotaged his own pipeline he can use it to claim more "attacks" on Russia by Ukraine and the west to justify what he is doing and wants to do next.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Nordstream was never going to be turned back on any time soon. It's increasingly sounding like it might never be turned on. So the cost of "breaking their own stuff" was nil.

Like I said, Norway is paying attention. They are most likely the actor the stunt was performed for. So whether you get it or not, it did the job.

Norway increased military presence around its pipelines. Yeah Russia got their attention, but to what strategic end? The only "job" it did was to make a NATO and EU member more hyper vigilant about a potential attack. If you truly wanted to pull off that type of attack, you wouldn't/shouldn't bluff that card, you just play it.

So if an actual attack was not the intention, then you are looking at a geo-political gain from bluffing the card. What was the gain? If you are Russia you have to sow discord in the West. Every move Putin has been making has had the opposite impact. He wanted to break NATO countries from each other politically with shutting off the gas and threatening nuclear war and instead has had NATO expand into Sweden and Finland. Threatening strategic resources isn't going to pull the union apart, it pushes them closer together. This guy is acting irrationally now so you begin to feel you don't have someone to even negotiate with. Furthermore, he just took one of his non-military negotiating pieces offline in a manner that is not easily and/or quickly reversed.

He fully mobilized and 66,000 Russian men packed up and bugged out. He ordered his military in Kherson to hold the line against his military leader's wishes and they are on the verge of being cut off. The Ukrainians are also setting the battlefield to cut another group off around Lyman.

I know what you are saying about why they think it makes sense for them, but just backing away a little bit, all of his decisions lately have been awful. He's painted himself into a corner and is just lashing out now.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Norway increased military presence around its pipelines. Yeah Russia got their attention, but to what strategic end? The only "job" it did was to make a NATO and EU member more hyper vigilant about a potential attack. If you truly wanted to pull off that type of attack, you wouldn't/shouldn't bluff that card, you just play it.

So if an actual attack was not the intention, then you are looking at a geo-political gain from bluffing the card. What was the gain? If you are Russia you have to sow discord in the West. Every move Putin has been making has had the opposite impact. He wanted to break NATO countries from each other politically with shutting off the gas and threatening nuclear war and instead has had NATO expand into Sweden and Finland. Threatening strategic resources isn't going to pull the union apart, it pushes them closer together. This guy is acting irrationally now so you begin to feel you don't have someone to even negotiate with. Furthermore, he just took one of his non-military negotiating pieces offline in a manner that is not easily and/or quickly reversed.

He fully mobilized and 66,000 Russian men packed up and bugged out. He ordered his military in Kherson to hold the line against his military leader's wishes and they are on the verge of being cut off. The Ukrainians are also setting the battlefield to cut another group off around Lyman.

I know what you are saying about why they think it makes sense for them, but just backing away a little bit, all of his decisions lately have been awful. He's painted himself into a corner and is just lashing out now.

Oh I won't argue he's making good decisions. Just that there's a reason for what he does.

 

[Sope Creek]

Underwater? Threat should be zero. Explosions require a certain amount of free oxygen.

Interesting . . . then how do depth charges and torpedoes explode?

 

[Sope Creek]

They and maybe the Germans would be the ones working on it. I suppose this could be some Russian 5D chess or something but I don't think Goat's potential scenario where Russia did this makes much sense.

Logically IMO, the Russians would want to have these pipelines online. It was their one big economic trump card they were going to be able to play this winter. With the pipelines destroyed or offline in a manner that is out of their hands, they lost their most effective weapon against countries like Germany to turn public opinion. The Germans couldn't get the gas turned on now even if they wanted to. God, nature, fate, a state actor, or whomever just took out Russia's most potent bullet over the next several months. The Russians should want those pipelines repaired as soon as possible because failure to do so over a longer term will have those European countries finding alternatives out of necessity. Once those alternatives are firmly in place, people become acclimated to the status quo.

This is a long winded way of saying the Russians have every motivation to turn that line off and not do anything that would delay repair.

If someone sees things differently, I am all ears. I just don't see how the Russians sabotaging themselves would appear to advance their goals, but I am open to hearing anything I may be missing.

Ennnhhhhhh . . . that would require Putin to be a short-term rational actor. I've concluded that he isn't rational in the way you have described, and that he will turn rationality on its head to achieve his goals . . . I think he might be blowing up the Nordstream pipelines to impose a terroristic threat against Europe.

And the methane bubbles in the Baltic Sea are Putin's way of thumbing his nose at all the climate change caused by man advocates in the EU. What else can he do, really? His entire product lineup - oil and gas - runs counter to the prevailing political ethos in Europe . . . short term Russia might be OK, but, if man-made climate change advocates have their way, long-term that product lineup doesn't do much for Russia economically.

And that might be his aim in Ukraine . . . annex the breadbasket of Europe.

 

[outside shooter]

No atmospheric oxygen is required for an explosive to detonate. Solid oxidizers such as nitrates, chlorates and perchlorates can do the job.

 

[Sope Creek]

No atmospheric oxygen is required for an explosive to detonate. Solid oxidizers such as nitrates, chlorates and perchlorates can do the job.

Where were you two days ago when Goat made his comment?

I was in a hotel, after babysitting floor refinishers all day, and couldn't get to a computer the entire time.

 

[outside shooter]

Where were you two days ago when Goat made his comment?

Probably moving the patio furniture inside and pretending to be Jim Cantore trying to stand up in an 80 mph wind. The 25-30 mph winds did prune the trees of dead limbs and dead palm fronds. Plus, our trash can blew over. Oh, the humanity!

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Interesting . . . then how do depth charges and torpedoes explode?

The required O2 is part of the mixture of ingredients/ molecular make up.
hell there wouldn’t even be enough oxy in the air to support combustion for a rapid explosion.

 

[Sope Creek]

The required O2 is part of the mixture of ingredients/ molecular make up.
hell there wouldn’t even be enough oxy in the air to support combustion for a rapid explosion.

So how did the explosions in the Nordstream pipelines occur?

The real question is . . . why did you like Goat's post?

 

[Sope Creek]

Probably moving the patio furniture inside and pretending to be Jim Cantore trying to stand up in an 80 mph wind. The 25-30 mph winds did prune the trees of dead limbs and dead palm fronds. Plus, our trash can blew over. Oh, the humanity!

Glad to hear you've survived Ian well enough . . .

. . . MrsSope has a nephew in Naples. He was out of the evacuation zone the whole time . . . .

 

[outside shooter]

So how did the explosions in the Nordstream pipelines occur?

I'm sure that we have highly classified intelligence reports on the movements of the Russian vessels that did it, when they did it, and how they did it. The question is whether the US Government decides to talk about it and give Russia knowledge about our surveillance capabilities.

 

[Sope Creek]

I'm sure that we have highly classified intelligence reports on the movements of the Russian vessels that did it, when they did it, and how they did it. The question is whether the US Government decides to talk about it and give Russia knowledge about our surveillance capabilities.

Thanks.

No answer to question #2 I take it?

 

[outside shooter]

Thanks.

No answer to question #2 I take it?

??

The question as to why Joe Hoosier liked Goat's post? No idea. Or maybe I missed another question.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Interesting . . . then how do depth charges and torpedoes explode?

The oxygen is included in the package.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I'm several steps behind this conversation.

 

[Sope Creek]

The question as to why Joe Hoosier liked Goat's post?

Correct. Thought you might know that too, since those questions were directed to him.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

So how did the explosions in the Nordstream pipelines occur?

The real question is . . . why did you like Goat's post?

Ummm, goat was answering about an explosion of gas during repair. He said can’t happen (basically). I and the interwebz agree with him.
how did the initial explosions happen… Explosives… not gas combusting.
It was all there if you followed the chain of the thread.