A less moderated Russia take

[Marvin the Martian]

Since the other thread is not to be political, try this one for politics.

DANC and I were discussing elected officials that want us to pull out. Below isn't quite that, but I think it is a bad idea.

30 liberals sent a letter asking Biden to directly negotiate with Putin. In most cases, I would agree. Putin is clearly playing a different game. I think us going to Russia sends a signal Putin will interpret as weakness. I do not think that is good for us or Ukraine. There is no good way to make Putin accept that line on the map in 3 years even if we reached a deal today.

I stand by the discussion in the other thread, some on the far right and some on the far left want the US out entirely. We know from the previous vote that there are more Rs than Ds currently. I doubt they will get a majority without help. A recession combined with fear of waste can drive more to the no column. Those a things will give a place to hang their hat that isn't seen as just being soft on Putin.

Liberal Democrats call on Biden to shift Ukraine strategy | CNN Politics

More than two dozen liberal House members are calling on President Joe Biden to shift course in his Ukraine strategy and pursue direct diplomacy with Russia to bring the months-long conflict to an end.

www.cnn.com

 

[i'vegotwinners]

without saying what they think we should offer, it's just BS.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Since the other thread is not to be political, try this one for politics.

DANC and I were discussing elected officials that want us to pull out. Below isn't quite that, but I think it is a bad idea.

30 liberals sent a letter asking Biden to directly negotiate with Putin. In most cases, I would agree. Putin is clearly playing a different game. I think us going to Russia sends a signal Putin will interpret as weakness. I do not think that is good for us or Ukraine. There is no good way to make Putin accept that line on the map in 3 years even if we reached a deal today.

I stand by the discussion in the other thread, some on the far right and some on the far left want the US out entirely. We know from the previous vote that there are more Rs than Ds currently. I doubt they will get a majority without help. A recession combined with fear of waste can drive more to the no column. Those a things will give a place to hang their hat that isn't seen as just being soft on Putin.

Liberal Democrats call on Biden to shift Ukraine strategy | CNN Politics

More than two dozen liberal House members are calling on President Joe Biden to shift course in his Ukraine strategy and pursue direct diplomacy with Russia to bring the months-long conflict to an end.

www.cnn.com

I feel the concept is that although we want Putins ass totally kicked, 1) we don’t have the money 2) Europe should be funding it totally or we won’t come save their asses again with my grandkids 3) we can not continue to be world cop.

But I am pretty sure the “right” wants Putin on the end of a rope, in public at a piñata party.

 

[TomEric4756]

Marv, I think you have this right …

I think us going to Russia sends a signal Putin will interpret as weakness.

Then again, Putin may be trapped in his own ideology (belief system) to reject any reasonable offer.

Meanwhlie, Xi is laughing all the way to the bank, at the expense two geopolitical rivals to Chinese hegemony are laying out.

Ukrainian preparations to employ a ‘dirty bomb’ sound like a real Russisn disinformation campaign to me.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Marv, I think you have this right …

I think us going to Russia sends a signal Putin will interpret as weakness.

Then again, Putin may be trapped in his own ideology (belief system) to reject any reasonable offer.

Meanwhlie, Xi is laughing all the way to the bank, at the expense two geopolitical rivals to Chinese hegemony are laying out.

Ukrainian preparations to employ a ‘dirty bomb’ sound like a real Russisn disinformation campaign to me.

I will suggest had we done nothing at all, Xi would see that as an indicator the west may not respond to Taiwan.

I agree about the dirty bomb being disinformation. I cannot figure out how Ukraine comes out ahead by making their own land uninhabitable.

 

[TomEric4756]

Marv, Without hundreds of anti ship missiles on Taiwanese shore batteries, I think a Naval blockade like that which was exercised recently has a chance to succeed. Yet, nothing has been done to address that.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Since the other thread is not to be political, try this one for politics.

DANC and I were discussing elected officials that want us to pull out. Below isn't quite that, but I think it is a bad idea.

30 liberals sent a letter asking Biden to directly negotiate with Putin. In most cases, I would agree. Putin is clearly playing a different game. I think us going to Russia sends a signal Putin will interpret as weakness. I do not think that is good for us or Ukraine. There is no good way to make Putin accept that line on the map in 3 years even if we reached a deal today.

I stand by the discussion in the other thread, some on the far right and some on the far left want the US out entirely. We know from the previous vote that there are more Rs than Ds currently. I doubt they will get a majority without help. A recession combined with fear of waste can drive more to the no column. Those a things will give a place to hang their hat that isn't seen as just being soft on Putin.

Liberal Democrats call on Biden to shift Ukraine strategy | CNN Politics

More than two dozen liberal House members are calling on President Joe Biden to shift course in his Ukraine strategy and pursue direct diplomacy with Russia to bring the months-long conflict to an end.

www.cnn.com

Thank you for starting this thread. I think it's a great topic. I am just skeptical that it won't devolve into a lot of partisan bickering, which isn't necessarily a deal-breaker, but I'd feel obligated to clean them up in the other thread, and that would be time-consuming.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

30 liberals sent a letter asking Biden to directly negotiate with Putin.

 

[Bill4411]

Marv, I think you have this right …

I think us going to Russia sends a signal Putin will interpret as weakness.

Then again, Putin may be trapped in his own ideology (belief system) to reject any reasonable offer.

Meanwhlie, Xi is laughing all the way to the bank, at the expense two geopolitical rivals to Chinese hegemony are laying out.

Ukrainian preparations to employ a ‘dirty bomb’ sound like a real Russisn disinformation campaign to me.

The "dirty bomb" is classic Russia disinformation which means they must be considering it. Why in heavens name would you want to use a "dirty bomb" on your own soil-maybe in the middle of Moscow would make sense but not in Ukraine-that's classic Russian b.s.

 

[Bill4411]

I feel the concept is that although we want Putins ass totally kicked, 1) we don’t have the money 2) Europe should be funding it totally or we won’t come save their asses again with my grandkids 3) we can not continue to be world cop.

But I am pretty sure the “right” wants Putin on the end of a rope, in public at a piñata party.

Ukraine is doing the heavy lifting-we aren't sending troops. Meanwhile our arch enemy is bogged down in a war that makes them look both cruel and incompetent.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Ukraine is doing the heavy lifting-we aren't sending troops. Meanwhile our arch enemy is bogged down in a war that makes them look both cruel and incompetent.

Yep, we are the world's arms dealer, not policeman. Ukraine just provides us the opportunity to show countries like India they are wasting money buying Russian crap.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I feel the concept is that although we want Putins ass totally kicked, 1) we don’t have the money 2) Europe should be funding it totally or we won’t come save their asses again with my grandkids 3) we can not continue to be world cop.

But I am pretty sure the “right” wants Putin on the end of a rope, in public at a piñata party.

I think it would be hard to find anyone in this country, anywhere on the political spectrum, who would be upset to see Putin take one in the back of the head. We might not be able to come to any agreement on Putin's ownership of inflation, Middle East instability, or Chinese international relations, but we can pretty much all agree this is Putin's war. Not Russia's war. Putin's war.

My concern is that Putin is probably smart enough to see this, as well. Personalizing the invasion will only make it more difficult for him to come to grips with losing.

 

[Bill4411]

I think it would be hard to find anyone in this country, anywhere on the political spectrum, who would be upset to see Putin take one in the back of the head. We might not be able to come to any agreement on Putin's ownership of inflation, Middle East instability, or Chinese international relations, but we can pretty much all agree this is Putin's war. Not Russia's war. Putin's war.

My concern is that Putin is probably smart enough to see this, as well. Personalizing the invasion will only make it more difficult for him to come to grips with losing.

Unfortunately, there are a number of people in the US that greatly admire and like Putin. They see him as being able to control his country with no crime and no social dissent and a clear state religion, which he does as a classic fascist, if you disagree with him, you will fall out of a 10th story window, while he and his cronies steal the state blind.

 

[NPT]

but we can pretty much all agree this is Putin's war. Not Russia's war. Putin's war.

My concern is that Putin is probably smart enough to see this, as well. Personalizing the invasion will only make it more difficult for him to come to grips with losing.

I think that is a nice summary of the whole war....especially the bold.

 

[Indianaftw]

Since the other thread is not to be political, try this one for politics.

DANC and I were discussing elected officials that want us to pull out. Below isn't quite that, but I think it is a bad idea.

30 liberals sent a letter asking Biden to directly negotiate with Putin. In most cases, I would agree. Putin is clearly playing a different game. I think us going to Russia sends a signal Putin will interpret as weakness. I do not think that is good for us or Ukraine. There is no good way to make Putin accept that line on the map in 3 years even if we reached a deal today.

I stand by the discussion in the other thread, some on the far right and some on the far left want the US out entirely. We know from the previous vote that there are more Rs than Ds currently. I doubt they will get a majority without help. A recession combined with fear of waste can drive more to the no column. Those a things will give a place to hang their hat that isn't seen as just being soft on Putin.

Liberal Democrats call on Biden to shift Ukraine strategy | CNN Politics

More than two dozen liberal House members are calling on President Joe Biden to shift course in his Ukraine strategy and pursue direct diplomacy with Russia to bring the months-long conflict to an end.

www.cnn.com

If you really want a win for the United States get Hillary involved. Have her draw up a plan that truly convinces Putin that China is getting ready to attack Russia (maybe some dossier or China interference). Putin nukes China. The world wins. The people enact the great reset not the elites. You're welcome.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I think it would be hard to find anyone in this country, anywhere on the political spectrum, who would be upset to see Putin take one in the back of the head. We might not be able to come to any agreement on Putin's ownership of inflation, Middle East instability, or Chinese international relations, but we can pretty much all agree this is Putin's war. Not Russia's war. Putin's war.

My concern is that Putin is probably smart enough to see this, as well. Personalizing the invasion will only make it more difficult for him to come to grips with losing.

It has been our policy lately to make wars personal, "our war is with 'person x', not with the people of 'nation y'. I am not sure that has worked overall, and I really doubt it will work here. Putin has a tight rein, but even more than that, it appears what pressure Putin is receiving is to broaden the war. Strange as it may seem, Putin may be the moderating force. ISW seems to imply the milibloggers are gung ho on this war and criticize Putin for not going full monty on Ukraine. Same for the head of the Wagner group and the Chechen leader.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Then again, Putin may be trapped in his own ideology (belief system) to reject any reasonable offer.

I do agree with this, but I think it is beyond Putin. I think the Russian military-industrial complex has a role in keeping Putin on the straight and narrow. Russia spends more as a percentage of GDP than we do.

And the sad thing is how modern negotiations work. If we were to go to Russia with a "reasonable offer" as the starting point, it would be negotiated to something unreasonable.

I don't see a good off-ramp. This is some of WW1, the more both sides bleed the bigger the victory they need to justify the cost. At this point, to have school children fondly remembering his name in 100 years, Putin has to take all of Ukraine. But like we were trapped in Vietnam, no one in power believed we could win but no one wanted to be the guy that admitted defeat, Putin is trapped.

I'd love to think there is an off-ramp we can offer, I just have no idea what it is. Russia has lost a lot of standing in the world, and getting them to accept that isn't likely.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I'd love to think there is an off-ramp we can offer,

We shouldn’t offer any off ramp. We need to do more to instigate taking him out. Iran’s active and apparently very effective drone support should never have happened. I think that’s 100% on Biden.

We need to:

1. Shitcan the JCPOA ASAP.
2. Reestablish our maximum economic pressure on Iran. Do the same for Russia
3. Gather world support for Iranian and Russian dissidents and be very public about supporting both.
4. Reassert and expand our dominance in fossil fuel production. Become the world leader in nuclear energy design and construction. Energy will be the currency of future world influence, we must step up our efforts and not allow Putin expand his influence.

 

[Bill4411]

We shouldn’t offer any off ramp. We need to do more to instigate taking him out. Iran’s active and apparently very effective drone support should never have happened. I think that’s 100% on Biden.

We need to:

1. Shitcan the JCPOA ASAP.
2. Reestablish our maximum economic pressure on Iran. Do the same for Russia
3. Gather world support for Iranian and Russian dissidents and be very public about supporting both.
4. Reassert and expand our dominance in fossil fuel production. Become the world leader in nuclear energy design and construction. Energy will be the currency of future world influence, we must step up our efforts and not allow Putin expand his influence.

Ukraine has really exceeded my expectation and we should continue to support it. Biden has done a good job so far with Ukraine, keeping us from getting directly in the war and also building a good coalition with European countries. Maybe most importantly China is of course watching and so far, they haven't done what I feared they would do which is to attack Taiwan. If we looked weak on Ukraine, China would be in Taiwan already.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Ukraine has really exceeded my expectation and we should continue to support it. Biden has done a good job so far with Ukraine, keeping us from getting directly in the war and also building a good coalition with European countries. Maybe most importantly China is of course watching and so far, they haven't done what I feared they would do which is to attack Taiwan. If we looked weak on Ukraine, China would be in Taiwan already.

Biden looks awful in Ukraine. The Mig fiasco is exhibit “A”. He took baby steps for the first several weeks instead of being strong and decisive. HIMARS should have been among the first weapons provided. His timidity in the run up contributed to what we have now.

 

[Bill4411]

Biden looks awful in Ukraine. The Mig fiasco is exhibit “A”. He took baby steps for the first several weeks instead of being strong and decisive. HIMARS should have been among the first weapons provided. His timidity in the run up contributed to what we have now.

You mean Russia losing?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

You mean Russia losing?

There is no possible universe in which CO wouldn't be criticizing Biden, no matter how he handled it.

 

[Spartans9312]

It has been our policy lately to make wars personal, "our war is with 'person x', not with the people of 'nation y'. I am not sure that has worked overall, and I really doubt it will work here. Putin has a tight rein, but even more than that, it appears what pressure Putin is receiving is to broaden the war. Strange as it may seem, Putin may be the moderating force. ISW seems to imply the milibloggers are gung ho on this war and criticize Putin for not going full monty on Ukraine. Same for the head of the Wagner group and the Chechen leader.

Putin has to be front runner for joker of the year award. He turned Russia from “superpower” to laughing stock.

 

[Spartans9312]

Since the other thread is not to be political, try this one for politics.

DANC and I were discussing elected officials that want us to pull out. Below isn't quite that, but I think it is a bad idea.

30 liberals sent a letter asking Biden to directly negotiate with Putin. In most cases, I would agree. Putin is clearly playing a different game. I think us going to Russia sends a signal Putin will interpret as weakness. I do not think that is good for us or Ukraine. There is no good way to make Putin accept that line on the map in 3 years even if we reached a deal today.

I stand by the discussion in the other thread, some on the far right and some on the far left want the US out entirely. We know from the previous vote that there are more Rs than Ds currently. I doubt they will get a majority without help. A recession combined with fear of waste can drive more to the no column. Those a things will give a place to hang their hat that isn't seen as just being soft on Putin.

Liberal Democrats call on Biden to shift Ukraine strategy | CNN Politics

More than two dozen liberal House members are calling on President Joe Biden to shift course in his Ukraine strategy and pursue direct diplomacy with Russia to bring the months-long conflict to an end.

www.cnn.com

House progressives retract Russia-diplomacy letter amid Dem firestorm

Party lawmakers were blindsided by Monday's release of a letter calling for direct negotiations in Ukraine, according to several people familiar with the situation.

www.politico.com

There are as many neoSov tankies on the left as there are Putin fan boys on the right. Mainly both because they somehow view Russia as anti-imperialist (as they try to annex a neighbor) or anti globalist.

Between the 30 tankies on the left and the 30 isolationists/Putin lovers on the right, I think the other 300+ members on Congress are on the right side of this war. Russias bleeding and taking them out now via essentially a proxy war fought with our 90s tech frees us up for the inevitable showdown with China in the west pacific

 

[SqueakyClean]

Between the 30 tankies on the left and the 30 isolationists/Putin lovers on the right, I think the other 300+ members on Congress are on the right side of this war. Russias bleeding and taking them out now via essentially a proxy war fought with our 90s tech frees us up for the inevitable showdown with China in the west pacific

Yup. I said it in the original Ukraine war thread.

The US is playing the board game "Risk" with the classic strategy right now. Make an alliance with a neighboring (relative) country and watch as that guy takes on the guy with the most armies on the other side. Regardless of who wins, both powers deplete each other's resources down to nothing. That way, if you have to go in and attack those countries later (Alliance? What alliance?), you sweep through both with your 30 armies against their pitiful remaining 3 armies each.

 

[larsIU]

Appears the Progressive either blinked first or left some Republicans holding the bag.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Appears the Progressive either blinked first or left some Republicans holding the bag.

View embedded media

I do not buy the excuse, but it does show the moderates have some power that they backed down this quick.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

You mean Russia losing?

Exactly what I mean. HIMARS and the MiGs would have been an earlier difference maker. Biden was obsessed with not passing off Putin. Putin’s early successes didn’t have to happen.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Exactly what I mean. HIMARS and the MiGs would have been an earlier difference maker. Biden was obsessed with not passing off Putin. Putin’s early successes didn’t have to happen.

Just curious: do you understand that everyone else thinks you're full of shit, or is it a mystery to you?

 

[Crayfish57]

Just curious: do you understand that everyone else thinks you're full of shit, or is it a mystery to you?

Do you understand the same thing, or is that a mystery to you?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Do you understand the same thing, or is that a mystery to you?

A lot of people think I'm an asshole, I'll admit that. But full of shit? No, that's a CO.H specialty.

 

[T.M.P.]

Iran’s active and apparently very effective drone support should never have happened. I think that’s 100% on Biden.

lmao ...

You are so full of shit ..

 

[CO. Hoosier]

lmao ...

You are so full of shit ..

Perhaps, but you aren’t capable of making the argument.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Yup. I said it in the original Ukraine war thread.

The US is playing the board game "Risk" with the classic strategy right now. Make an alliance with a neighboring (relative) country and watch as that guy takes on the guy with the most armies on the other side. Regardless of who wins, both powers deplete each other's resources down to nothing. That way, if you have to go in and attack those countries later (Alliance? What alliance?), you sweep through both with your 30 armies against their pitiful remaining 3 armies each.

I think that's the game China is playing, actually.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Appears the Progressive either blinked first or left some Republicans holding the bag.

View embedded media

LOL at "released by staff without vetting."

 

[larsIU]

LOL at "released by staff without vetting."

Man, I gotta use that the next time something stupid ends up in the wrong hands.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Man, I gotta use that the next time something stupid ends up in the wrong hands.

Actually I think that covers about 3/4 of all posts here.

 

[Crayfish57]

A lot of people think I'm an asshole, I'll admit that. But full of shit? No, that's a CO.H specialty.

And what are assholes usually full of?

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

And what are assholes usually full of?

Well played.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

And what are assholes usually full of?

Touche.