If Indiana adopted the oad model would you buy in?

[Nap Town Hoosier]

Yogi wasnt a consensus five star. I just looked and he was rated 4 star by espn (lower by Scout) and never had any OAD goal I don’t believe. He didn’t even get drafted as a graduating senior and worked his butt off to get in the league through the back door. I think he played for the Mavericks first and having Cuban there didn’t hurt I am sure.

Fred vanVleet was in Yogi’s class and rated much lower.

They didn’t win a championship with Zeller who even stayed an extra year (AD et al from KY were in the draft after his freshman year). He has been so so in the pros.

So no championship in college and so so in the pros. I dont think either one was recruited to fill a hole for a championship run.

What? Indiana was the consensus pre-season #1 team in the country to start the 2012-2013 season and were ranked #1 most the year and earned a #1 seed. Yogi was most definitely brought in to go on a championship run. Just because they didn't make it to the final game doesn't mean there wasn't aspirations to win it all. What a silly take.

Yogi was ranked #21 in the 247 composite (the average of all the recruiting sites), was a McD's AA, and was undoubtedly a 5* prospect coming out of high school.

 

[CriticArisen]

What? Indiana was the consensus pre-season #1 team in the country to start the 2012-2013 season and were ranked #1 most the year and earned a #1 seed. Yogi was most definitely brought in to go on a championship run. Just because they didn't make it to the final game doesn't mean there wasn't aspirations to win it all. What a silly take.

Yogi was ranked #21 in the 247 composite (the average of all the recruiting sites), was a McD's AA, and was undoubtedly a 5* prospect coming out of high school.

Some ranking services consider top 12 in the country five star so on that basis he wasn’t. No one ever would have considered him one and done. I think they made it to sweet sixteen. He sounds like maybe your favorite all time IU played so I respect that but he wasn’t any way OAD. Zeller was marginally like outside the top 10 but he hasn’t lit up the NBA.

Arguably the best player on that team in hindsight was VO ranked definitely as a four star.

 

[CriticArisen]

That's why you find the right fit. Jalen Brunson was a 5* and stayed three years. Yogi and Zeller were 5* players who didn't act like this. Hell Zion Williamson was a 5* and looked like he thoroughly enjoyed playing in college and wasn't a distraction or cancer to his team.

Find yourself a 5* player who may be a OAD but fits your team and culture and that is willing to buy in, and you're good to go.

I do agree with you about fit but I still believe in general when you take a typical OAD you are almost always creating more problems then you are solving.

 

[CriticArisen]

That's why you find the right fit. Jalen Brunson was a 5* and stayed three years. Yogi and Zeller were 5* players who didn't act like this. Hell Zion Williamson was a 5* and looked like he thoroughly enjoyed playing in college and wasn't a distraction or cancer to his team.

Find yourself a 5* player who may be a OAD but fits your team and culture and that is willing to buy in, and you're good to go.

Zion played with players higher rated them him in high school in a program that has recently specialized in this type of player. Completely different then bringing in a single OAD to a team with good chemistry who you expect to make a championship run within a couple seasons.

We all know UK is a program that specializes in OAD and that is why Calipari can slap a player like Herro down to size on the sidelines with millions watching. Much much much different then bringing in a single to a multi season team you have confidence in.

 

[CriticArisen]

I believe the entire star thing is just BS that keeps idiots employed and fanboys enthralled. You can create a championship team with no five star players if you are a good enough coach. There are four star players that will turn out better than the average five star player. A five star player like Anthony Davis is huuuugely different then say Cody. It just makes it easier for some people to demonstrate their vast knowledge of basketball talking about some kid in lollapalooza mississippi got good press and just narrowed his choices down to 10 schools.

 

[fpeaugh]

Okay then educate me a little more please. Why is it that so many five stars (the base OAD’s) are mediocre in college and suck in the pros.

For example you think it is a plot by the delusional (like myself) against OAD’s?
or
Do you think the people assigning, the “experts”, assigning these ratings barely know their ass from a hat and a large percentage of these ratings is PR BS that alumni and fanboys see as a divine message.

or other.

A common comment here seems to be that you recruit the best players with a bias that those players are the OAD’s (the five stars). Most of these five stars never pan out.

I haven’t looked at it but in a typical class you may actually have zero to say two players that will really be top players the others are more chaff.

At the same time there are many lower rated players that will really excel in college and the pros.

When Calipari first started an NBA Junior program it was brilliant for championship basketball. He had a psychological advantage against opponents that is no longer there. In addition he had a couple players that did excel in college and the pros. Now the luster is off this approach and everyone knows that a seasoned older team can beat an OAD dominant team. Last year’s Duke team is the archetypical team in this regard.

You may say well K does it or C does it so it must be right and so you are an idiot. Look for yourself at the performance of five star classes.

Look for yourself at many of the top players in the NBA that weren’t five star.

When looking at it quickly it seems to me that these ratings tend to overrate height/strength and underrate shooters.

Just a quick look shows these “experts” blow in general.
I

Again, you have absolutely no concept of statistics.

There are approximately 20 5 star recruits each year out of about 1,000 players going D1. So 2% of D1 recruits are 5 stars.

You believe it’s a revolutionary idea that the 98% puts out more stars than the 2%? That’s just basic statistics.

The reality is you have a better chance of making the NBA or being a star as a 5 star than you do as a 3 of 4 star. By a factor of 5-10. It’s not even remotely debatable. And that’s what matters...not the volume in a distorted sample.

And each school can only have 13 scholarship players. You conveniently like to take “the field” in every argument, but you can’t take the other 980 players on your team vs the 20 5 stars. That’s not how it works. Every team gets 13.

When you get to high school I hope you can take a statistics intro class and catch up. When you do, please take notes.

 

[CriticArisen]

Again, you have absolutely no concept of statistics.

There are approximately 20 5 star recruits each year out of about 1,000 players going D1. So 2% of D1 recruits are 5 stars.

You believe it’s a revolutionary idea that the 98% puts out more stars than the 2%? That’s just basic statistics.

The reality is you have a better chance of making the NBA or being a star as a 5 star than you do as a 3 of 4 star. By a factor of 5-10. It’s not even remotely debatable. And that’s what matters...not the volume in a distorted sample.

And each school can only have 13 scholarship players. You conveniently like to take “the field” in every argument, but you can’t take the other 980 players on your team vs the 20 5 stars. That’s not how it works. Every team gets 13.

When you get to high school I hope you can take a statistics intro class and catch up. When you do, please take notes.

The couple best rated players in the country have a very good chance of excelling in college and the pros as I stated earlier. The rest are a crap shoot. In your paradigm your five star statistics are biased by the top couple players being five star. Any time you want to discuss continuous or non continuous stochastic processes let me know.

 

[fpeaugh]

The couple best rated players in the country have a very good chance of excelling in college and the pros as I stated earlier. The rest are a crap shoot. In your paradigm your five star statistics are biased by the top couple players being five star. Any time you want to discuss continuous or non continuous stochastic processes let me know.

So you believe you have the same percentage odds of making the NBA as a 5 star as you do of a 3 star? Just a crap shoot?

You literally can’t make this stuff up. Kids say the craziest things.

 

[CriticArisen]

The couple best rated players in the country have a very good chance of excelling in college and the pros as I stated earlier. The rest are a crap shoot. In your paradigm your five star statistics are biased by the top couple players being five star. Any time you want to discuss continuous or non continuous stochastic processes let me know.

Sure if you know absolutely nothing about basketball and are picking players randomly then in your case using the stars is better than not. If you are a good coach you can identify good players if they got five stars or zero stars.

 

[CriticArisen]

So you believe you have the same percentage odds of making the NBA as a 5 star as you do of a 3 star? Just a crap shoot?

You literally can’t make this stuff up. Kids say the craziest things.

The entire point is you don’t pick randomly. You can find kids with terrific potential that are not five stars so bringing in a lower OAD will cause more problems than solve problems.

 

[fpeaugh]

The entire point is you don’t pick randomly. You can find kids with terrific potential that are not five stars so bringing in a lower OAD will cause more problems than solve problems.

I believe you’re actually learning the basics of statistics. Of course you won’t admit it so you’re changing your argument. But I hope that light bulb went off in your head. Trust me, if your school offers it you should take it.

 

[CriticArisen]

The entire point is you don’t pick randomly. You can find kids with terrific potential that are not five stars so bringing in a lower OAD will cause more problems than solve problems.

You just ignore that Calipari and K followed your strategy and didn’t even get close to a banner. K had an incredibly starred recruiting class but got their butts handed to them by older high chemistry teams.

It worked for a while but things have changed.

 

[fpeaugh]

You just ignore that Calipari and K followed your strategy and didn’t even get close to a banner. K had an incredibly starred recruiting class but got their butts handed to them by older high chemistry teams.

It worked for a while but things have changed.

For the last time, it’s not a strategy...it’s the point of the game.

Shooting a low score in golf is not a strategy, it’s the point of the game.

Recruiting the best players is not a strategy, it’s the foundation behind every single program in the country.

How many titles does Coach K have? How about Calipari, Roy Williams, Bill Self, etc? And you’re arrogant enough to believe you have a better “strategy” than these HOF coaches? You have a lot to learn about the real world kid.

Those 4 coaches represent just over 1% of college coaches in D1. Yet they’ve won close to half the titles the last 15 years or so. Figure it out man.

 

[CriticArisen]

For the last time, it’s not a strategy...it’s the point of the game.

Shooting a low score in golf is not a strategy, it’s the point of the game.

Recruiting the best players is not a strategy, it’s the foundation behind every single program in the country.

How many titles does Coach K have? How about Calipari, Roy Williams, Bill Self, etc? And you’re arrogant enough to believe you have a better “strategy” than these HOF coaches? You have a lot to learn about the real world kid.

Those 4 coaches represent just over 1% of college coaches in D1. Yet they’ve won close to half the titles the last 15 years or so. Figure it out man.

The best player for your program is not identified by some “expert” assigning stars that the fanboys take as Gospel. Again The natives in Lexington are not happy C hasn’t won a championship in 8 years. Kansas is a mess from OAD’s and haven’t won in 12 years.

That leaves Roy Williams and K that have done well recently. K likely had the best starred class in history but couldn’t win against older high chemistry teams this last season.

You like absolutes and absolutes are nearly never correct. You recently said that ALL coaches absolutely would have wanted Zion on their team.

This discussion started about bringing in a single OAD to any program and you absolutely state that because they are better than any other lower rated player as determined by some set of experts they should be brought in.

You are the one that needs a reality adjustment my friend because the world is not black and white and few absolutes are true.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

The best player for your program is not identified by some “expert” assigning stars that the fanboys take as Gospel. Again The natives in Lexington are not happy C hasn’t won a championship in 8 years. Kansas is a mess from OAD’s and haven’t won in 12 years.

That leaves Roy Williams and K that have done well recently. K likely had the best starred class in history but couldn’t win against older high chemistry teams this last season.

You like absolutes and absolutes are nearly never correct. You recently said that ALL coaches absolutely would have wanted Zion on their team.

This discussion started about bringing in a single OAD to any program and you absolutely state that because they are better than any other lower rated player as determined by some set of experts they should be brought in.

You are the one that needs a reality adjustment my friend because the world is not black and white and few absolutes are true.

Teams with at least one 1&D are statistically more likely to win a championship than their peers without any.

Why argue with facts?

 

[CriticArisen]

Teams with at least one 1&D are statistically more likely to win a championship than their peers without any.

Why argue with facts?

You guys present an extremely flawed argument. First you claim that a coach should always take an OAD and that is absolute. It doesn’t have any statistics or probability associated with it but then you start strange probabilistic arguments that are the antithesis of the certainty of your conclusion.

Any coach that recruits players based on the fact that experts consider him a five star OAD is a very poor coach. Who rated a player a five star OAD-some scouting service? A coach outsources his player evaluations for recruiting to a scouting service? Pretty poor coach in that case. You all have certainty about things like there is some absolute irrefutable determination that a player is a five star OAD and that determination ensures that he is the best prospect available for all programs. That it is a certain thing.

Any good coach would determine what his needs are both for this season and the future and what high schooler he has seen best suits those needs. In that case he will often recruit a lesser starred player that he feels is a better fit for his program then the OAD. If that happens a single time then it is a counter example to your absolute position.

I doubt there are many teams that won the championship by picking up a single OAD who then left for the NBA after the championship. I will try to check but doubt that has happened often so not sure what statistics you are referring to. If you have already done it then what are the teams and years?

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

You guys present an extremely flawed argument. First you claim that a coach should always take an OAD and that is absolute. It doesn’t have any statistics or probability associated with it but then you start strange probabilistic arguments that are the antithesis of the certainty of your conclusion.

Any coach that recruits players based on the fact that experts consider him a five star OAD is a very poor coach. Who rated a player a five star OAD-some scouting service? A coach outsources his player evaluations for recruiting to a scouting service? Pretty poor coach in that case. You all have certainty about things like there is some absolute irrefutable determination that a player is a five star OAD and that determination ensures that he is the best prospect available for all programs. That it is a certain thing.

Any good coach would determine what his needs are both for this season and the future and what high schooler he has seen best suits those needs. In that case he will often recruit a lesser starred player that he feels is a better fit for his program then the OAD. If that happens a single time then it is a counter example to your absolute position.

I doubt there are many teams that won the championship by picking up a single OAD who then left for the NBA after the championship. I will try to check but doubt that has happened often so not sure what statistics you are referring to. If you have already done it then what are the teams and years?

The absolutism with which I am speaking is a figment of your imagination.

As for your last paragraph it seems to entirely miss the point of my previous point, and do you really not know who the the teams are that have won championships with 1&D's.

 

[CriticArisen]

The absolutism with which I am speaking is a figment of your imagination.

As for your last paragraph it seems to entirely miss the point of my previous point, and do you really not know who the the teams are that have won championships with 1&D's.

The original discussion was about someone other than one of the OAD programs bringing in a single OAD. fpeaugh said always yes they should because he is the best player. If that isn’t your position than what is your position about always bringing in a single OAD if one is available to you?

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

The original discussion was about someone other than one of the OAD programs bringing in a single OAD. fpeaugh said always yes they should because he is the best player. If that isn’t your position than what is your position about always bringing in a single OAD if one is available to you?

My position is that it seems pretty smart to bring in the best player you can. I don’t know why you weirdos find that offensive.

You guys act like Jay Wright and Tony Bennett have elected a strategy of multi-year players over one and done players.

The truth is they’re working within the confines of the players they’re capable of recruiting.

They’re not turning down Top 10 players, they’re just not receiving interest from them.

 

[CriticArisen]

For the last time, it’s not a strategy...it’s the point of the game.

Shooting a low score in golf is not a strategy, it’s the point of the game.

Recruiting the best players is not a strategy, it’s the foundation behind every single program in the country.

How many titles does Coach K have? How about Calipari, Roy Williams, Bill Self, etc? And you’re arrogant enough to believe you have a better “strategy” than these HOF coaches? You have a lot to learn about the real world kid.

Those 4 coaches represent just over 1% of college coaches in D1. Yet they’ve won close to half the titles the last 15 years or so. Figure it out man.

MSU has two recruits coming in and both are four stars (Watts and Hall). Better let Izzo know that he has no chance for a championship because of his delusional recruiting.

 

[CriticArisen]

My position is that it seems pretty smart to bring in the best player you can. I don’t know why you weirdos find that offensive.

You guys act like Jay Wright and Tony Bennett have elected a strategy of multi-year players over one and done players.

The truth is they’re working within the confines of the players they’re capable of recruiting.

They’re not turning down Top 10 players, they’re just not receiving interest from them.

Izzo has recruited two four stars and he has some good players returning so let’s see how that works out next season. I bet he makes a championship run.

Duke and KY have their usual freshman crop but I will go with MSU and you guys can have all the OAD programs.

 

[fpeaugh]

MSU has two recruits coming in and both are four stars (Watts and Hall). Better let Izzo know that he has no chance for a championship because of his delusional recruiting.

That’s the best he could do. Doesn’t mean it can’t work out. But he didn’t turn down all the 5 stars because he prefers less talented 4 stars.

Speaking of titles...when was Izzo’s last Title?

 

[fpeaugh]

The best player for your program is not identified by some “expert” assigning stars that the fanboys take as Gospel. Again The natives in Lexington are not happy C hasn’t won a championship in 8 years. Kansas is a mess from OAD’s and haven’t won in 12 years.

That leaves Roy Williams and K that have done well recently. K likely had the best starred class in history but couldn’t win against older high chemistry teams this last season.

You like absolutes and absolutes are nearly never correct. You recently said that ALL coaches absolutely would have wanted Zion on their team.

This discussion started about bringing in a single OAD to any program and you absolutely state that because they are better than any other lower rated player as determined by some set of experts they should be brought in.

You are the one that needs a reality adjustment my friend because the world is not black and white and few absolutes are true.

Please come back when you’ve graduated HS and have taken a statistics 101 class. You have a lot to learn.

 

[CriticArisen]

That’s the best he could do. Doesn’t mean it can’t work out. But he didn’t turn down all the 5 stars because he prefers less talented 4 stars.

Speaking of titles...when was Izzo’s last Title?

Who says they are less talented? Was it five star fanboy expert central?

 

[CriticArisen]

That’s the best he could do. Doesn’t mean it can’t work out. But he didn’t turn down all the 5 stars because he prefers less talented 4 stars.

Speaking of titles...when was Izzo’s last Title?

Did Roy Williams take a three star because he couldn’t get any four or five stars.

 

[CriticArisen]

Did Duke take a couple four stars because couldn’t get any more five stars?

 

[CriticArisen]

Kansa took two three stars. Even the four star cupboard was bare I guess.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

Kansa took two three stars. Even the four star cupboard was bare I guess.

As a matter of fact Kansas did miss on all their primaries this year. Dolt.

 

[CriticArisen]

As a matter of fact Kansas did miss on all their primaries this year. Dolt.

I wasn’t the one that included Bill Self on the list of OAD coaches to be emulated.

 

[CriticArisen]

It’s just an absurd position that all five stars are better than all four stars are better than all three stars etc for all coaches in all situations. But I guess it makes it easy for some people to pontificate and appear to be knowledgeable when they don’t really have a clue.

 

[CriticArisen]

Using fpeaugh’s logic He should load up on Memphis this coming season since Memphis had the best recruiting class in the opinion of five star fanboy expert central so the statistics are good for them to win the championship. They will be undervalued by delusional dolts like myself and so a good wagering opportunity.

As usual money talks and BS walks so do you want 10-1 odds and I take they don’t win the championship. Run it through that statistical super computer of a mind and let me know if you want the bet. Payable by me when they win the tournament and by you if they should somehow lose the tournament on the date of defeat.

We can agree other particulars by private email.

 

[CriticArisen]

I guess you are an honorable albeit misguided person so no escrow accounts if you agree but open to escrow if you don’t agree.

 

[CriticArisen]

Also farva cola alsobwelcome on this. I realize I am a dolt so like taking candy from a baby with your superior intellect.

 

[CriticArisen]

For some reason I think escrow accounts better with cola boy.

 

[fpeaugh]

Did Roy Williams take a three star because he couldn’t get any four or five stars.

You didn’t answer the question.

And yes, I’m sure Roy recruited plenty of 5 stars. No one can land them all.

 

[fpeaugh]

Using fpeaugh’s logic He should load up on Memphis this coming season since Memphis had the best recruiting class in the opinion of five star fanboy expert central so the statistics are good for them to win the championship. They will be undervalued by delusional dolts like myself and so a good wagering opportunity.

As usual money talks and BS walks so do you want 10-1 odds and I take they don’t win the championship. Run it through that statistical super computer of a mind and let me know if you want the bet. Payable by me when they win the tournament and by you if they should somehow lose the tournament on the date of defeat.

We can agree other particulars by private email.

What in the world are you talking about?

The field always has the advantage.

There’s that darn statistics thing eluding you again.

 

[ThreeToMakeTwo]

How would IU adopt the ‘one and done’ model? Obviously it requires the best players coming here like UK, Duke and UNC have. What steps are involved?

 

[CriticArisen]

What in the world are you talking about?

The field always has the advantage.

There’s that darn statistics thing eluding you again.

Just what I thought. BS walks.

 

[Wall2Boogie]

How would IU adopt the ‘one and done’ model? Obviously it requires the best players coming here like UK, Duke and UNC have. What steps are involved?

Hypothetically speaking, for the sake of the thread. Say Archie could reel in 5 stars all day long. It won’t be long till he’s getting two 5 stars a year anyways. Would you take having 5 star talent predominantly with only a few 3 and 4 star guys?

 

[CriticArisen]

Hypothetically speaking, for the sake of the thread. Say Archie could reel in 5 stars all day long. It won’t be long till he’s getting two 5 stars a year anyways. Would you take having 5 star talent predominantly with only a few 3 and 4 star guys?

This is hard to answer without more detail and so easily attacked by jackals but accepting the star paradigm and assuming five stars are like the 12 most highly rated players in a class by whomever assigns these ratings then I prefer very good four stars with a four year (or one championship) commitment to the program.

This is all subject to the details. If there was a good five star that I as a coach liked that would make a good faith commitment to continue playing until a championship or graduation then of course he would be a priority target.
I just personally prefer a team that has upper class players and good team chemistry versus a OAD team.

If IU could make a championship run once every four years or so then I would be very happy as a fan.