How do you deal with Islam?

[Mas-sa-suta]

Ken Burns taught me about the Civil War and the Vietnam War. I need to read more about American history and wars.

Once the American leaders figured out the war was a quagmire and unwinnable, they couldn't accept defeat and failure or be the first Americans to do so. So, they lied to the public and equated a large body count as success. The crazy part is Vietnam was a lot like the US at its founding: colony trying to be independent. The whole thing makes me want to cry. Watching vets like Musgrave go through hell and figure out they had been lied to and fought an unwinnable war is heartbreaking. America really lost its innocence in Vietnam. War really is hell in a million different ways, and it is normally the average and poor people that suffer the most. Vietnam is still hurting people to this day.

Guerilla warfare on somebody else's turf. Not being able to tell who the enemy actually is. Fighting causes and ideas. Bad leadership using people. There are some similarities.

After serving one year in a Cav unit in Vietnam as Recon Scout, I came back and got back in school, where I double-minored in History and American Studies. I had earlier(65-67) participated in intercollegiate switch-side debate, and we took a road trip to U. Wisconsin.
At this time, the anti-war drums were beating, and UW was a hotbed, SDS leading the opposition. I recall feeling conflicted about this protest activity. It seemed disloyal and disrespectful to our military at that time.
Now 50 years later, having an education, and a half-century of life experience, I've concluded that my country is addicted to war, and any argument to the contrary is false.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

Of course Muslims aren’t a problem here. They’re a minority and are living in a Christian nation that has a capitalism and human rights.

So far....amirite?

 

[snarlcakes]

So far....amirite?

You’re going to need to expand on your question. I don’t know what you’re asking.

 

[GigGoo]

Now 50 years later, having an education, and a half-century of life experience, I've concluded that my country is addicted to war, and any argument to the contrary is false.

It should be noted that as much as people on the populist right lament Ukraine and Israel intervention, we are not currently at war in either of those countries.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

You’re going to need to expand on your question. I don’t know what you’re asking.

They're a minority so far...
A Christian Nation so far....
Capitalist.....well sort of..
Human Rights.....well...

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

It should be noted that as much as people on the populist right lament Ukraine and Israel intervention, we are not currently at war in either of those countries.

Ladies and gentlemen I present exhibit #1..

 

[CO. Hoosier]

After serving one year in a Cav unit in Vietnam as Recon Scout, I came back and got back in school, where I double-minored in History and American Studies. I had earlier(65-67) participated in intercollegiate switch-side debate, and we took a road trip to U. Wisconsin.
At this time, the anti-war drums were beating, and UW was a hotbed, SDS leading the opposition. I recall feeling conflicted about this protest activity. It seemed disloyal and disrespectful to our military at that time.
Now 50 years later, having an education, and a half-century of life experience, I've concluded that my country is addicted to war, and any argument to the contrary is false.

We have become addicted to lack of resolve.

After Trump killed Qasem Soleimani, I heard one “knowledgeable source” say Trump signaled through the Swiss that the Ayatollah was next. Iran was quiet the remainder of his term. Soleimani was killed for the attack on our embassy in Baghdad.

Don’t know if the Ayatollah thing is true, but killing Solemani was a message by itself. Avoiding war is more likely if the other side believes you want war.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Ladies and gentlemen I present exhibit #1..

For what?

 

[GigGoo]

Ladies and gentlemen I present exhibit #1..

If you’re more concerned with the funds we are spending on those conflicts then maybe that’s more reasonable.

But it seems odd to fixate on only Ukraine and Israel within the backdrop of the other wasteful billions we spend every year.

 

[BradStevens]

I've concluded that my country is addicted to war, and any argument to the contrary is false.

An interesting perspective. Let me offer a reframing:

1. Human conflict is inevitable, based on a few non-contingent facts: finite resources, finite land, and plurality of morality and psychological traits in the billions of people and different cultures.

2. Nation states are designed and derive their legitimacy from protecting their citizens and ensuring not only physical safety, but economic security and flourishing (in a world of finite resources).

3. Your country, the United States, currently sits at the top of the heap militarily in the world. Its current economy is tied to those of other nations throughout the world, due to their markets and their resources.

4. Given 1-3, it is unsurprising that the US takes a position or has a "side" in many conflicts across the globe, and will fund or help one side or the other that it thinks will advance its economic, military, or moral (that will be justified using the other two at some point and vice versa) interests.

 

[HoosierJimbo89]

You just did.


But you can’t see it. You’ve been brainwashed. Your brain won’t brain anymore. Propaganda got you. Be careful, or in another five years or so, you too might be willing to chop off some baby heads. You know, justifiably, to keep Israel from killing more innocents than you think is fair and to stop the moral gymnastics.

Hamas must go, and you can’t accept that. Morally, of course.

I'm fine with Hamas ceasing to exist and Israel going after them. Ultimately, I want peace, and Hamas as Palestine's leadership is the opposite of that.

I know that this conflict has gone on forever, is really nasty, and there are violence cycles. As the UN Secretary said, 10/7 didn't happen in a vacuum. Both sides have to try harder at making peace happen. Killing civilians in cycles is not the answer.

 

[dbmhoosier]

Another horrific incident in Iran that will be swept under the rug.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/23/world/iran-armita-geravand-brain-dead-intl-hnk/index.html

View embedded media

Meanwhile, protestors are not only supporting anti-Israel, but are literally proclaiming Islamic Jihad to take over various places across the Western world. And if that weren't enough, this is a religion that is responsible for 33,769 Islamist attacks that killed at least 167,096 people between 1979 and 2019. We know those figures are now too low, based not only on Hamas' attack, but various other attacks the past couple of years.

Islamist terrorist attacks in the world 1979-2019 - Fondapol

Since the Red Army’s invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, the world has been shaken by jihadist terrorism. In forty years, Islamist terrorist attacks have multiplied, reaching as far as the heart of Western countries, New York, Madrid, London, Paris, but also Moscow, etc. By instilling feelings of...

www.fondapol.org

Is there any other cause that is even close to having this much of a detrimental impact across the globe? Is it racist to feel like Islam and its followers are a lost cause? Obviously the majority of Islam followers are probably not bad people and are getting a bad rap.

Through unyielding strength that is how.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

They aren’t serious people

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

They're a minority so far...
A Christian Nation so far....
Capitalist.....well sort of..
Human Rights.....well...

A Republic, as long as you can keep it...'

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

If you’re more concerned with the funds we are spending on those conflicts then maybe that’s more reasonable.

But it seems odd to fixate on only Ukraine and Israel within the backdrop of the other wasteful billions we spend every year.

Hey! Look over there!!

Sparkly objects .....

Pitiful!

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

 

[DANC]

I think they are both morally wrong: I'm not going to engage in moral gymnastics. Killing civilians is not ok. If you think Israel cares if they kill civilians or not and aren't on a revenge tour, then I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

How many civilians did the US kill during the Bin Laden raid? There are ways other than bombing to acquire or kill a wanted person. You are assuming that bombing has to occur or it is impossible to take the high ground.

You can't imagine Israel can be on a revenge tour s still not want to take out civilians?

Why? Because your boys in Hamas celebrate slaughtering civilians so everyone does?

You have a twisted mind - one that's never taken the time to actually deal in facts.

 

[DANC]

My Grandpa was in Korea and proud of what he did there and the outcome. He was also proud of his service in Vietnam but told me one night when we were catfishing that we should have never been there.

The US government was new to being world leaders after WW2 and to this day haven't figured out foreign policy. George F Kennan worked as an advisor in the state Department under Truman and Kennedy and told them to stay out of Asian conflicts. They didn't listen and Dean Acheson and Dulles got him dismissed.

The best and the brightest......

 

[DANC]

We have become addicted to lack of resolve.

After Trump killed Qasem Soleimani, I heard one “knowledgeable source” say Trump signaled through the Swiss that the Ayatollah was next. Iran was quiet the remainder of his term. Soleimani was killed for the attack on our embassy in Baghdad.

Don’t know if the Ayatollah thing is true, but killing Solemani was a message by itself. Avoiding war is more likely if the other side believes you want war.

It's why the Soviet Union was so afraid of Reagan. It helps when our enemies don't know exactly how our Presidents will act.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

As the UN Secretary said, 10/7 didn't happen in a vacuum. Both sides have to try harder at making peace happen. Killing civilians in cycles is not the answer.

You keep saying some variation of this and it’s really offensive.

There’s no “both sides” with what happened on October 7th.

There’s a terrorist organization in Hamas who slaughtered 1400 innocent people.

There’s no “other side”.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

You keep saying some variation of this and it’s really offensive.

There’s no “both sides” with what happened on October 7th.

There’s a terrorist organization in Hamas who slaughtered 1400 innocent people.

There’s no “other side”.

When someone quotes the UN, I immediately laugh and dismiss them as actually caring.

 

[DANC]

When someone quotes the UN, I immediately laugh and dismiss them as actually caring.

What these history-ignorant dupes don't realize is, the UN is the one who gave the state of Israel legitimacy.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

An interesting perspective.

You used three paragraphs to agree with VDH.

What seems askew is in the choices American policy makers choose in terms of who gets paid by the debt of unborn generations of citizens..
Mujahideen Khalq
Iran-Contra
Noreiga
ISIS
Hamas
Azov
etc.,

And how anti despot movements in Iran and Turkey have gotten the cold shoulder..

 

[BradStevens]

You used three paragraphs to agree with VDH.

What seems askew is in the choices American policy makers choose in terms of who gets paid by the debt of unborn generations of citizens..
Mujahideen Khalq
Iran-Contra
Noreiga
ISIS
Hamas
Azov
etc.,

And how anti despot movements in Iran and Turkey have gotten the cold shoulder..

I'll take that as a compliment.

You'll have to explain further what you find askew in that list. I'm not sure I know what you're driving at.

 

[manichi]

You keep saying some variation of this and it’s really offensive.

There’s no “both sides” with what happened on October 7th.

There’s a terrorist organization in Hamas who slaughtered 1400 innocent people.

There’s no “other side”.

Agreed, there is no “both sides” to what happened on 10/7 but there’s definitely a both sides to the broader conflict. Wondering if Northern Ireland might be a better comparison
than anything that’s been kicking around. Until this I had no idea right-leaning folks were so anti-Palestinian. Previously imagined it as a relative neutrality.

Hamas is a blood thirsty organization.

Israel has a colonial relationship with Palestine.

Both can be true at the same time and because both are true, we’ll repeat the cycle again and again and again…

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

I'll take that as a compliment.

You'll have to explain further what you find askew in that list. I'm not sure I know what you're driving at.

American 'official' policy is my reference.

 

[BradStevens]

On the original question, what to do with Islam?

Root out jihadists:

Latest Episodes | Honestly Podcast

www.honestlypod.com

I don't generally listen to Sam Harris. He rubs me the wrong way. I find him a little too arrogant, a little too smarmy, hate his podcast model, and think he's out of his league when he tries to tackle philosophical issues.

But his opinions here are pretty close to what I lean towards. Some of what he says will rile the left (and typical liberal assumptions about the motivations of Hamas, which I admit I am prone to) and some the religious right.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Biden Expected to Greenlight $10 Billion Payment to Iran

The Biden administration is set to approve a sanctions waiver on Tuesday that will allow Iran to access at least $10 billion in previously frozen funds held in Iraq, a decision that comes just a month after the Tehran-backed terror group Hamas launched an attack on Israel that left 1,400 dead.

freebeacon.com

We're really smart....

 

[td75]

Organized religion has historically produced conflicts/war/bad blood. The main driver in these conflicts is religion and the difference in beliefs.

Even if an agreed upon peace treaty AND land rights were favorably hammered out, they would still hate each other over religious reasons.....

FWIW, I'm a Christian but I recognize the dark underbelly of religion.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Biden Expected to Greenlight $10 Billion Payment to Iran

The Biden administration is set to approve a sanctions waiver on Tuesday that will allow Iran to access at least $10 billion in previously frozen funds held in Iraq, a decision that comes just a month after the Tehran-backed terror group Hamas launched an attack on Israel that left 1,400 dead.

freebeacon.com

We're really smart....

Seems like speculation, but not improbable. If the Administration does waive this, it will sink any reelection chances.

 

[hoot1]

The best and the brightest......

Organized religion has historically produced conflicts/war/bad blood. The main driver in these conflicts is religion and the difference in beliefs.

Even if an agreed upon peace treaty AND land rights were favorably hammered out, they would still hate each other over religious reasons.....

FWIW, I'm a Christian but I recognize the dark underbelly of religion.

Is it religion which separates people or the way people interpret religion ?

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Seems like speculation, but not improbable. If the Administration does waive this, it will sink any reelection chances.

They can’t be THAT stupid, can they?

 

[IUCrazy2]

Is it religion which separates people or the way people interpret religion ?

Islam sucks. Interpret it in a very lax fashion and it is one huge cluster of incompatibilities. Interpret the religious writings as they are and you basically become the 7th century warlords whose behavior the entire "religion" was meant to cover in the first place. You NEVER want this religion to approach prominence anywhere you live.

 

[td75]

Is it religion which separates people or the way people interpret religion ?

It's one in the same...

 

[jet812]

Seems like speculation, but not improbable. If the Administration does waive this, it will sink any reelection chances.

Meh, based on the response to Oct 7, it may cost some votes from Never Trumpers but will likely galvanize the progressives to vote for him…

 

[GigGoo]

Meh, based on the response to Oct 7, it may cost some votes from Never Trumpers but will likely galvanize the progressives to vote for him…

It certainly appears that the Biden admin. has entered the political triangulation part of this conflict. They offered their 2-3 weeks of strong Israel support as any decent administration would be expected to do.

Now they have to ramp up the “protect the Palestinians” rhetoric to try and salvage the domestic political situation at home.

 

[DANC]

They can’t be THAT stupid, can they?

underestimate biden's stupidity at your own peril

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Biden Expected to Greenlight $10 Billion Payment to Iran

The Biden administration is set to approve a sanctions waiver on Tuesday that will allow Iran to access at least $10 billion in previously frozen funds held in Iraq, a decision that comes just a month after the Tehran-backed terror group Hamas launched an attack on Israel that left 1,400 dead.

freebeacon.com

We're really smart....

Seems like speculation, but not improbable. If the Administration does waive this, it will sink any reelection chances.

They can’t be THAT stupid, can they?

The Beacon left out key information. Every four months, the US issues a security waiver allowing the Iraqis to buy energy from Iran. Without it, Iraq would be forced to implement wide-ranging brownouts. It just so happens that the previous waiver expires in a week or so, so smart Republicans are preparing to pound Biden on it by misrepresenting what's happening.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

It certainly appears that the Biden admin. has entered the political triangulation part of this conflict. They offered their 2-3 weeks of strong Israel support as any decent administration would be expected to do.

Now they have to ramp up the “protect the Palestinians” rhetoric to try and salvage the domestic political situation at home.

The panic in the State Department is palpable and growing as blowback from the Gaza demolition by Israel is increasing by the day.