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F.B.I. Opened Inquiry Into Whether Trump Was Secretly Working on Behalf of Russia

Impeachment ain’t about criminal behavior CO. You know that. You’re shifting the goal posts here.

If we have a president that actively welcomed and encouraged assistance from a hostile foreign government, should that president be impeached?

Curious as to your answer.

I agree impeachment is about politics and not about crimes. Everything about Trump is more political than legal. The political opposition to Trump within the FBI at the time this “Russian operative” investigation began is now patently obvious. I think that is a problem in many levels. The subject of this thread and the NYT article that prompted it is about the mindset of the polictized FBI at that time.

Edited and made better.
 
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I agree impeachment is about politics and not about crimes. Everything about Trump is more political than legal. The political opposition to Trump within the FBI at the time this “Russian operative” investigation began is now patently obvious. I think that is a problem in many levels. The subject of this thread and the NYT article that prompted it is about the mindset of the polictized FBI at that time.

Edited and made better.

LMAO!
 
You read my post wrong. I have no clue why you talk about "effectiveness." Effectiveness of what? Yes, Trump's intent is important. His intent, as shown by his unmistakable actions are not blatantly pro-Russia. If you look, you can find actions of any administration that are in a sense "pro-Russian". Just cuz something is seen as a benefit to Russia doesn't mean we don't also receive a same or greater benefit. Using Russia to ferry people and equipment to and from the ISS is a perfect example. Us using Russian-built heavy-lift rocket engines to launch satellites we use to spy on Russia is another example. Pulling out of Syria, in my view, is in our long term best interest. Not to mention that adventure is not authorized by congress in the first place. It wasn't that long ago the Democrats were bitching about Trump bombing Syria without congressional authorization. Oh, that GOP platform change about Ukraine is a red herring given Trump's policy in sending lethal arms there.

And do you find fault with Trump's desire to improve overall relations with Russia?
Trump sending lethal arms to Ukraine came at a price as they were holding a key witness in the Russia probe who was then released and allowed to leave so Mueller could not get access to him. Ukraine was desperate so they had to chose a path they did not want to follow but that was the only way they could get anything from the Trump administration:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/world/europe/ukraine-mueller-manafort-missiles.html
 
My money is on Rosenstein signing off on it.
That's a possibility but we haven't seen that yet.
From the Times article, "No evidence has emerged publicly that Mr. Trump was secretly in contact with or took direction from Russian government officials."
And, from the way anti-Trump stories leak, one has to conclude that anything found by anyone that substantiated the ridiculous Russia-collusion story would have leaked by now.
 
Trump sending lethal arms to Ukraine came at a price as they were holding a key witness in the Russia probe who was then released and allowed to leave so Mueller could not get access to him. Ukraine was desperate so they had to chose a path they did not want to follow but that was the only way they could get anything from the Trump administration:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/world/europe/ukraine-mueller-manafort-missiles.html

You have to understand the context. It’s certainly not because Trump has anything to hide. Nope, nothing to hide at all.
 
Everything about Trump is more political than legal.
Prove it.
The political opposition to Trump within the FBI at the time this “Russian operative” investigation began is now patently obvious.
Prove it.

~~~~

This post of yours is a perfect example of your bad-faith posting. You ridicule evidence-based conjectures that don't fit your ideology and state as facts those conjectures that do fit your ideology.

It makes a guy wonder how many nuance-challenged juries and judges you duped into believing your sophistry.
 
I've got to confess as to having doubts about the claim that there is no record anywhere of what was said in that meeting. That could be the case but it is difficult to imagine a President Trump who would not want to have this record available to show how he handled Putin for historians or for his memoirs.

If there are notes, it's a pretty safe bet that Trump didn't make them. Notes and other normal practices are not his style.
 
state as facts those conjectures that do fit your ideology.

You aren't the first one to raise this point. I say what I think. I have little difficulty separating fact from opinion in posts, links, and other material I read and hear. Are you suggesting you can't do that? Would you prefer I always say 'IMHO"?
 
That's a possibility but we haven't seen that yet.
From the Times article, "No evidence has emerged publicly that Mr. Trump was secretly in contact with or took direction from Russian government officials."
And, from the way anti-Trump stories leak, one has to conclude that anything found by anyone that substantiated the ridiculous Russia-collusion story would have leaked by now.
I guarantee you, there is tons that Mueller knows that hasn’t been leaked.
 
You aren't the first one to raise this point. I say what I think. I have little difficulty separating fact from opinion in posts, links, and other material I read and hear. Are you suggesting you can't do that? Would you prefer I always say 'IMHO"?
That's not my point. You apply rigorous logic to the statements others make here and demand they prove or support their points. That's good. You don't apply the same rigor to yourself. That's hypocritical. That's bad-faith posting.

And that's not even the worst. The worst is that you're more interesting in proving yourself right, regardless of truth or workability, but you're not unique in that here. It's that sort of blinkered "self-interest" that's an anchor on our great nation more than anything else.
 
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You apply rigorous logic to the statements others
yes
demand they prove or support their points.
Not necessarily.--I learned years ago this is usually a waste of time.
You don't apply the same rigor to yourself.
Some posts have more rigor than others.
The worst is that you're more interesting in proving yourself right,
You don't understand maieutics if you think this is true. Pursuing an argument doesn't necessarily mean I think I am right, but it does mean that I am testing an opinion or other argument for which there is no clear right or wrong. I usually continue to split hairs or drill down until I am satisfied with the end result. Most posters here start in with the name calling and snarks immediately or after the first or second exchange. I plead guilty to not seeing right and wrong in places where other posters come to that end without much thought instead using emotion and reaction to arrive at a "right" answer.
 
yes

Not necessarily.--I learned years ago this is usually a waste of time.

Some posts have more rigor than others.

You don't understand maieutics if you think this is true. Pursuing an argument doesn't necessarily mean I think I am right, but it does mean that I am testing an opinion or other argument for which there is no clear right or wrong. I usually continue to split hairs or drill down until I am satisfied with the end result. Most posters here start in with the name calling and snarks immediately or after the first or second exchange. I plead guilty to not seeing right and wrong in places where other posters come to that end without much thought instead using emotion and reaction to arrive at a "right" answer.
Maieutics is another example of your (apparent?) bad-faith posting, for one simple reason, others here, myself included, don't get the impression you're engaging in any dialogue to arrive at some clarification, truth, or understanding. Instead, you lead the conversation into dead-ends, circles, and other non-maieutic misdirections. I gather you're saying that's not your intention. You could have fooled a whole lot of us. Think of it as good-faith versus bad-faith maieutics. In legal think, it's a question of intent. You seem intent on trolling rather than actually engaging in collegial maieutics.
 
LOL. Can you backpedal that tandem like that too?

tenor.gif
 
LOL. Can you backpedal that tandem like that too?

No backpedaling here. I made the leaking like a sieve remark when Strzok worked there or with reference to when he worked there. Never repeated it. I did mention a time or two that a particular leak seemed to have come from a source connected with the SC office.

Edited and made more accurate.
 
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Maieutics is another example of your (apparent?) bad-faith posting, for one simple reason, others here, myself included, don't get the impression you're engaging in any dialogue to arrive at some clarification, truth, or understanding. Instead, you lead the conversation into dead-ends, circles, and other non-maieutic misdirections. I gather you're saying that's not your intention. You could have fooled a whole lot of us. Think of it as good-faith versus bad-faith maieutics. In legal think, it's a question of intent. You seem intent on trolling rather than actually engaging in collegial maieutics.

Your (and many other posters) problem comes from a strong desire to end all discussions with in a right/wrong conclusion. For me the journey is always more interesting than the end. I view most issues as having no right and wrong ending. This collusion business is one of those.
 
Your (and many other posters) problem comes from a strong desire to end all discussions with in a right/wrong conclusion. For me the journey is always more interesting than the end. I view most issues as having no right and wrong ending. This collusion business is one of those.
Nope, but no need to repeat myself. I expected a dodge from you. I gave you a concrete example above. It stands as does my point, and it has nothing to do with ending anything.
 
You seem intent on trolling rather than actually engaging in collegial maieutics.

I call it probing, not trolling. As I’ve said a number of times, trolling effectiveness is in the exclusive control of the reader, not the writer. If you believe I am trolling, I have no way to change that.
 
My fav memory was going out to some Italian 'restaurant'/dive by the Missouri River -- it used to be one of those places that was used to off-load alcohol during the bad ol' days. But great food and cheap.

You must be talking about Garozzo's. Been there a few times. I think of the KC mob from the movie Casino whenever I eat there. KC is a great food town. (note to lurker: That's my opinion).
 


Hmm....

What happens next is unknowable. But for the president’s supporters to double down in the face of mounting evidence that the president himself is, in some way, compromised by our most dedicated enemy, while making excuses for his secretive behavior by attacking the men and women of the FBI, is a road so dark that perhaps even Joseph McCarthy would not have dared walk it.

:cool:


Nichols is about 100x smarter than I.... and has forgotten more about Russia/Soviet Union than I've ever even considered to read.
 
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Hmm....

What happens next is unknowable. But for the president’s supporters to double down in the face of mounting evidence that the president himself is, in some way, compromised by our most dedicated enemy, while making excuses for his secretive behavior by attacking the men and women of the FBI, is a road so dark that perhaps even Joseph McCarthy would not have dared walk it.

:cool:


Nichols is about 100x smarter than I.... and has forgotten more about Russia/Soviet Union than I've ever even considered to read.
Trump would have been a pin cushion for McCarthy.

Anyone who didn't realize Trump was compromised to Putin ages ago doesn't have a clue about how Russian operate. That wouldn't include Congressional Republicans. They know. They're complicit at this point and have been for most of two years. (note to CoH: that's evidenced-based conjecture)
 
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Trump would have been a pin cushion for McCarthy.

Anyone who didn't realize Trump was compromised to Putin ages ago doesn't have a clue about how Russian operate. That wouldn't include Congressional Republicans. They know. They're complicit at this point and have been for most of two years. (note to CoH: that's evidenced-based conjecture)
Nah, Roy Cohn would have somehow worked it out for him after all he was the Trump family attorney and Joe McCarthy depended on him for his legal counsel. Roy had no problem with conflicts of interest and Trump even with all his Russian connections would still good as long as Fred Trump kept paying Roy.
 
You must be talking about Garozzo's. Been there a few times. I think of the KC mob from the movie Casino whenever I eat there. KC is a great food town. (note to lurker: That's my opinion).

Edit:

I just checked on the Garozzo's place. Its not the same place. This was literally by the river, so way out of town.
Great eggplant lasagna. The portions were crazy big too. Postpandial was always the challenge.
 
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Great eggplant lasagna. The portions were crazy big too. Postpandial was always the challenge.

I loved their house made sausage. First time we went was after dark. Off duty cops escorted us to and from the parking lot. Don’t know if that was really necessary or just intended to add to the mob-like atmosphere. ;)

Have you been to the original Arthur Bryant’s? Best BBQ on the planet.
 
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Edit:

I just checked on the Garozzo's place. Its not the same place. This was literally by the river, so way out of town.
Great eggplant lasagna. The portions were crazy big too. Postpandial was always the challenge.


I loved their house made sausage. First time we went was after dark. Off duty cops escorted us to and from the parking lot. Don’t know if that was really necessary or just intended to add to the mob-like atmosphere. ;)

Have you been to the original Arthur Bryant’s? Best BBQ on the planet.

Man, you guys are killing me. Makes me want to hop a plane to KC, get "scalped" for play-off tix and then hit the town for EATS. BBQ? What a coincidence. My wife found a really good sounding rub/sauce recipe online and prepared a couple of slabs yesterday. Very tasty! Mostly, the usual basic sauce ingredients were listed in this recipe with the addition of apple juice. Sweet & Spicy!
 
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Man, you guys are killing me. Makes me want to hop a plane to KC, get "scalped" for play-off tix and then hit the town for EATS. BBQ? What a coincidence. My wife found a really good sounding rub/sauce recipe online and prepared a couple of slabs yesterday. Very tasty! Mostly, the usual basic sauce ingredients were listed in this recipe with the addition of apple juice. Sweet & Spicy!

KC has really good BBQ places.
 
I loved their house made sausage. First time we went was after dark. Off duty cops escorted us to and from the parking lot. Don’t know if that was really necessary or just intended to add to the mob-like atmosphere. ;)

Have you been to the original Arthur Bryant’s? Best BBQ on the planet.

I left KC a couple of decades ago -- I have been mourning over the BBQ ever since. I have tears rolling down my face as I pretend to eat the 'great' BBQ here in S'pore whilst thinking of the good ol' days.

Having said that, back then, I would work-out 3 times a week with an hour on the Stairmaster and then weights (plus a couple of sessions of tennis a week) and wondered by I never got a six-pack.
KC BBQs
 
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I agree impeachment is about politics and not about crimes. Everything about Trump is more political than legal. The political opposition to Trump within the FBI at the time this “Russian operative” investigation began is now patently obvious. I think that is a problem in many levels. The subject of this thread and the NYT article that prompted it is about the mindset of the polictized FBI at that time.

Edited and made better.

I bet it would be infuriating playing Clue with you.
 
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