I had an interesting conversation with someone today who is from Europe. They were shocked at how much devotion and resources our communities put into school sports programs. He stated club sports were prevalent in his area. Should this be considered? Have sports in public schools ran its course? These were some of the points discussed.
Elimination of sports in schools
- Thread starter elijawon
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School sports (talking High School for the most part) are a long-standing element of American culture. They should not be eliminated. What Europe does is not relevant.
Europe needs to worry about getting a vaccine for Covid
Such a different environment. How club sports are run in the US vs how club sports are run in Europe is so different. In the US, soccer is expensive and the travel and participation costs are passed on to parents. Apples and Oranges.
I do agree with you and enjoy going to and coaching games myself. Part of what drove the conversation was potential budget cuts and program eliminations. The world seems to be changing at an exponentially faster rate now. Will traditions be safe? I don’t know. I don’t think the main sports will dissolve into nothing in the school systems. But certain programs will fade by lack of interest, funding, and participation. A strange trend to me, are a few high school kids in my area have chosen to quit high school basketball and just play AAU year round. And 2 of those players were starting guards on Varsity as freshman. Had anyone else seen this. And this has been at different schools FYI.
My question is “why do we tie college education to sports?” The education aspect is a farce for many. Here’s the general plan: Schools recruit the same number of players (revenue and non revenue sports), and the “pay” is the same: cost of tuition, room and board, whatever. If the athlete doesn’t want to attend classes, and just train, so be it.
Brilliant perspective. If it's been longstanding than we shouldn't change it. Wow.
You surely are no leader of a corporation because THAT thinking would sink your company swiftly. You always have to be willing to adapt and change or you will fail. Unfortunately, your way of thinking is why China will soon surpass the US in GDP as well.
I am not saying we need to change high school sports but to shut down a conversation based on tradition is laughable. We need to completely revamp our educational system to allow the youth to be educated on things that will impact their lives in 2021, not 1950. This nostalgic idea that whatever we created and worked at that time must remain is slowly killing us.
I remember mentioning back in 2005 that there is too much money in sports that players will be paid and people went ballistic. Its narrow minded thinking to ever assume we will not need to constantly find methods of improvement. We have gone so long without any real dynamic changes that we are getting hit with a BUNCH of them at once and people are going to keep losing their minds. Time only keeps proving me right.
If we all could have college sports like they were in the 60's-90's, we would all love it because its what we are used to. Its how we are all wired and why change is hard; however, your question was a really good one. Its all hyperbolic when we are speaking on an IU message board but its still an interesting topic to digest. People think that if they put their blinders on, changes won't happen around them and slowly dissolve their traditions anyways. So we can either try to find ways to enjoy change or just live our lives complaining about how good things used to be.....but are irrelevant in 2021. Life is too short.
You don't feel like high school sports impact kids now? And why don't people think they'll work in the future?
They do impact kids, both good and bad. There are all kinds of studies on the good impacts and bad impacts sports has on the mental and physical aspects of our children. I would say research it, but most people are so emotional now about everything it’s hard to have a logical discussion. Overall impact is still probably a positive when you consider community impact. But that market is dwindling. One good example in my area is now all non-revenue sports will now be charged 5 dollars a game to cover the lost revenue basketball season. I know that doesn’t sound like a lot but it’s still a factor and only ticked off about 30 parents on Facebook. Now parents who used to love our program, are tearing into the AD on Facebook and it spreads whether justifiable or not. How much money would you pay to watch a Jr High golf meet so the Varsity football team can get new shoulder pads? Sounds like barrel scraping to me.
Bad analogy. China has four times the US population and is a totalitarian regime that regards individuals as grist for the national mill and traditions as impediments (see Cultural (D)Evolution). "Adaptation' is not their MO so much as it is 'execution' (often literally) - there is nothing and no one that they will hesitate to sacrifice or that is immune to erasure in the national interest.
Correct that to "shut down a conversation based on tradition is laughable" and that free societies are oft throttled by their own inertia, but submit that corporate influence/license run amok has far more to do with comparative economic trends. Current US practice/modeling supports concentraton of wealth and the export of capital/profit whereas the Chinese model is largely the opposite. If any "tradition" is "killing us", it's that. All that being said, not a thing about China that anyone who has been there would likely trade for what exists in the US save for perhaps their tax code.
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The USA has come to Europe's rescue twice in the last 110 years. We are back-to-back World War champs. I don't give a rat's ass what Europe does with club sports, high school sports or anything else, quite frankly.
Not all change is good.... Tradition is important. It's one of the things that makes us human and binds us to like minded individuals.... I was only a pitiful swimmer and a marginally decent tennis player in high school, but I can't imagine my school years without these activities.
Those are the sports on most schools chopping blocks, but including universities.
I think that is the key question. Do sports in HS for example provide additional value for the kids beyond what they would get in a purely educational setting? Do other "after school activities"? The answer I have seen is that sports DO help kids grow and learn skills and real life talents. Anyone looking at sports as a reason for failure in our education system is lazy and looking for a scapegoat to larger issues.
This is anecdotal and based on personal experience, but most of my bad hires have been people who didn't play sports in HS. Conversely, most of my good hires did play HS sports.
There's something to be said for people who have made personal sacrifices, practiced discipline and competed as part of a team. It's an indicator of success IMO.
There's something to be said for people who have made personal sacrifices, practiced discipline and competed as part of a team. It's an indicator of success IMO.
Haha this thread is coming off the rails. I think the best question is do schools and education have to be tied? Is AAU essentially a club sport which will supplant the IHSAA? I don’t doubt the value of sports in moderation. Will the future budget cuts and looming educational overhauls change the roles of sports in schools? Participation and attendance has been declining for years in every sport but flag football which is gaining a little ground . This is already hitting some schools and I think it will be state wide. Changes are inevitable. COVID taught a lot of people to love their homes. Will they return? Thank you everyone for the thoughtful responses.
COVID and the overreaction taught a lot of people to be lazy... Will they return from that? probably not
Well aware... if it doesn't increase the university's bottom line, it is not deemed valuable anymore.
As a kid, my family was on the lower part of the economic spectrum. I doubt that I'd have been able to participate in sports (or band, chorus, etc) if they were relegated to club status. I suppose that other things could evolve to fill the void, but I'd hate to see these activities limited to those with more resources - particularly when the kids don't have a lot of control over their circumstances.
"Capitalism....it's what makes America great.....England, ok...and France, terrible".
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IMO the biggest issue and only real problem is that academics mostly aren't accorded their due relative to sports. Schools, and especially in rural areas, simply don't celebrate and honor academic excellence the way they do athletics. The reality is that athletics and 'jocks' are often so exalted that academics become secondary if not looked down upon, and the brightest kids are frequently demeaned and treated as outcasts. The fact that much of this contempt is often nurtured/led by certifiable dumb-asses who are noteworthy only for fact of being on the football team or some only heightens the irony.
HS sports is not a problem. - it's invaluable experiential learning that unconsciously teaches so much simply in the doing. It's a model of a largely all-inclusive/all are welcome dynamic that cuts across arbitrary cultural/ethic/social barriers that has done probably done more to erase racism and cultural prejudice than any single thing in this country by cultivating brother- sisterhood, the concept of Team and something greater than 'self' among young people (and their parents!). It is not in any way 'broken', but is is accorded overmuch in the way of emphasis and support relative to the primary reason for school in the first place - academic learning/education. The 'nerds' and the other students who bust their asses no less than the jocks should be supported and extolled just as much if not more than the athletes.
Screw the club model. HS sports is a fully-functional tribute to the merits of socialism and community.
🍏 🍏
Wait until those folks have to pay $15 per head per day to watch their kid play club volleyball.
I took that from a podcast yesterday. It was in reference mostly to fan support. They were saying a lot of these venues and sports were going to advertise limited capacity just so people don’t see the decline on tv. People just enjoy their TVs and air conditioning.
30+ years ago I was a "jock" and top 10 in academic standing in my class at a rural consolidated school. If memory serves, 6 of the other 10 were also varsity letter winners. Since then, nieces, nephews, and cousin's kids have all gone through there or are still going through there and I don't think much has changed. Participation has gone down, but most of the strong academic performers also play a HS sport. As far as I know, there aren't HS athletes getting a pass and there aren't kids being demeaned because of their intelligence. The last varsity b-ball game I attended honored the Jr. High robotics team at halftime for winning the state competition.
Again, anecdotal, but I don't believe that rural schools are sacrificing academics in order to exalt athletes or their athletic endeavors. If anything, I think the small rural schools skew the other way.
I used to think that, too. Then I started going to events and the crowds are shockingly big. I think there is a thirst for sports and live entertainment. We'll see.
We gave up paid television a few years ago and went back to antenna tv. We now take that money and buy tickets to random games. I enjoy watching IU baseball now about as much as anything. Got to meet Schwarber’s family several times. Best decision we ever made. I do miss watching every IU game but just one live event makes up for it to me. But everyone is different which is a good thing. My only observation has been crowds at every event but IU women’s basketball and IU football seems to be decreasing. And I am including the high school sports. Hopefully you are right, but I am pessimistic about it.
I'm only referring to post covid crowds. And I love going to an IU Baseball game. You can't really beat it.
VanPastorMan
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I think it is really great and means so much in communites. When I was a pastor in Illinois one of the boys in the church played high school football. He lead the conference in rushing and his team went to the final 8 in their class. What a great memory. Another boy who came to the church some but not as much as the first was a defensive player. He got appendicitis and was misdiagnosed at the local hospital was actually rushed to the hospital in Rockford IL. I was visiting with him and he told me he was upset. I thought he was scared because he almost died. He says to me, "Pastor I didn't get to play in the game last week and I was really wanting to get at the qb because I can't stand him". We laughed about it. Later in the playoffs in an earlier round he is back playing and they meet up with this same team. The game is pretty tight and I will never forget that the kid from our church sacked the qb from that team to secure the win. High School sports is really great.
I think people ignore the fact that in a whole lot of cases some of the best academic achievers in a school are athletes as well. The smart kid as Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory is a dried up generalization. I agree we could do more to "exalt" high achieving students, but labeling them as generally "outcasts" is an outdated stereotype. And let's be honest, even in your vision of all of this, the "dumb athletes" in your scenario get to work at the lumber yard while the "nerds" seek their revenge in an Ivy league school and go on to become President or CEO.
Thirty years ago you're claiming that 7 of the top 10 were varsity letter winners? Sounds like your "rural consolidated school" must have been exceptionally far ahead of the curve in developing women's sports since typically over half of those in HS academic top tens are female.
Glad you experienced/remember otherwise but you're naive or in denial if you think/imagine this is some sort of outlier or fairy tale. I went to a large but distinctively bucolic HS of 2200 (9-12) and there was one FB player in the Sr. class academic top ten. I also know and regularly speak with a number of kids still in HS and they tell the same story that I observed and experienced and am relating to you now.
Not alleging that the "sacrifice" you reference was/is purposeful - it's just the way it played out and continues to play across broad swaths of the country. I mean when was the last time you heard about a 'pep assembly' for the debate team or the science club? When are valedictorians ever honored besides at graduation after school is ended? How often is scholastic excellence or achievement showcased and/or celebrated in front of the student body, parents and the community? Never sounds about right.
Yeah. We had varsity sports for the girls as well as the boys. The girls could even letter in those sports. We were way ahead of our time. Our Valedictorian lettered 3 years in Volleyball and our Salutatorian lettered in basketball and track. Both great gals to this day.
Everything else you're talking about seems to run counter to your previous arguments against rural schools. I also gave you an example of a robotics team being honored at halftime of a boy's varsity game.
I guess we could have a different definition of rural schools.
You all but lost me at BB Theory. I never said "generally" in reference to outcasts. I was addressing a real (not universal) dynamic that is still broadly extant in the arena of secondary education. You're the one making simplistic and stupefying generalizations as your last sentence attests. There's your "honest".
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Robotics is good (missed that the first time), but they had to win state for anyone to take notice, eh?
Never said that nothing has changed, only that there's still IMO a vast disparity between what is and what could/should be. First to admit that good things oft take time, and the best things seemingly forever.
Also never said that all schools are the same or afflicted to the same degree - only that it is an issue and one that can't be construed to be non-existent simply because it falls outside the realm of your own personal experience. Anyway, sounds like you and yours live in really good district - generally a mark of great teachers and active parents. Rock on.
Of course I said nothing about not keeping up academics, or not being willing to adapt education to the modern era. My response was strictly to the subject of this thread and the original post which posited the "elimination" of school sports. I hope that as the leader of a corporation you are not in the habit of creating strawmen and attacking them sarcastically rather than dealing with the direct issues presented to you, lest you fail.
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