Baltimore bridge collapse

[mattndallas]

Wow. Lots of height issues in this group. I used to have to climb these things - using basically metal ladders surrounded by a cage, with platforms roughly every 30 feet or so. You could feel them moving in the wind, along with the petroleum products moving through the columns. On cold days you could feel the heat inside the columns. Even had to climb vent stacks on some tankers (big ass ocean ships for transporting liquid products such as benzene).

I mistakenly thought that I would grab the best seat in the house at the 2019 US Open at Pebble Beach...in the very left (facing the green) top of the below grandstand, so I could see the action on #7 green, then the tee shots down #8.

Got to the course at gate open and secured my spot.

Lasted about 3 groups. Between the wind, the shaking of the stands as people got up and left in between groups, I couldn't do it. Felt like if this thing failed, and fell towards #8, I was going over the edge of the cliff. 😄

This pic is about mid stand (high), and isn't over on the edge like I was...still kinda daunting...

 

[Stuffshot]

That ignorant comment from a Twitter Twit is yet another example of the garbage that gets spewed on that platform. The bigger problem is that people are ignorant enough to believe that garbage. No doubt thousands of people, who know absolutely nothing about ships or driving ships are convinced it was deliberate and they will not be swayed.

My only question is if the ship lost power twice, where did the first time happen and how much time was there between recovering power and losing power again?

And, how much time was there between the first "power" failure and the mayday?

So, when the lights go out, that's obviously an electrical failure. Then, what else immediately fails? Navigation? Steering? Engines?

I read that the ship was adrift and didn't follow exactly how the lights going out might make it go adrift. TIA.

 

[larsIU]

 

[larsIU]

It’s the late night go to for my daughter and I. Air disasters or I almost got away it

Why I Ran is also great.

Check out Mariana Van Zeller with Trafficked (Hulu)

 

[Stuffshot]

i'm deathly afraid of heights but bridges don't bother me as long as you're over water. anything over water doesn't bother me. even flying over the ocean and i hate flying - as long as you can get out. you can fall from any height, 40,000 feet, and survive over water provided you time the pointing of your toes perfectly. you'll just go really deep.

There's a nice drive on a state highway for you from Flagstaff to Sedona.

Dozens of switchbacks. No water. No guardrails either. It's absolutely beautiful.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Chairlifts vs gondola must be part of the "control" aspect of the fear. A gondola could fail, sure, but you couldn't slip or fall out of a gondola? Like in a plane or roller coaster?

Like I said, edge of a hot air balloon basket...I might have to sit to feel comfortable in those...where I couldn't actually trip, or be thrown over the rail? Maybe?

Can You Be Afraid of Heights But Not Flying? | Climb Above Fear

Some people with acrophobia find that they feel no fear while on an aeroplane. In this article, we'll explore the reasons behind this phenomenon.

www.climbabovefear.com

You are actually pretty secure in a hot air balloon. The basket is taller than it looks.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Wow. Lots of height issues in this group. I used to have to climb these things - using basically metal ladders surrounded by a cage, with platforms roughly every 30 feet or so. You could feel them moving in the wind, along with the petroleum products moving through the columns. On cold days you could feel the heat inside the columns. Even had to climb vent stacks on some tankers (big ass ocean ships for transporting liquid products such as benzene).

Nope nope nope

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

And, how much time was there between the first "power" failure and the mayday?

So, when the lights go out, that's obviously an electrical failure. Then, what else immediately fails? Navigation? Steering? Engines?

I read that the ship was adrift and didn't follow exactly how the lights going out might make it go adrift. TIA.

I'm not familiar with that power plant, but I'm a qualified engineer in 1200 LB steam, 600 LB steam and diesel. I was past my watch standing days when I got to gas turbine ships, but they're actually easier to learn and manage than any of the other three. I know how they run. I would guess that ship was a diesel ship and they have diesel electrical generators. Ships have more than one. Sounds like they lost control systems causing the generators to shut down or the switchboards to switch to auxiliary. The main engines may have shut down as well, or they lost steering which would cause them to go to neutral on the props so they don't just steam forward without being able to control direction. The symptoms indicate that they lost main power, and it seems like the emergency generator may have switched on just before the collision. It could be a case of losing power and control at just the wrong time. If they were far enough from the bridge the immediate action would have been to drop anchor. Looks like they may have done that, but if the bridge is within the swing arch, they're still going to hit it anyway, and they did. Most likely they were just hoping to slow down enough so they might not take out the bridge supports if they hit it. Obviously, they didn't slow down enough. By enough with a ship that size it would have to be dead in the water. Even then the current was taking them into the bridge rather than away so it might have been hopeless.

 

[zeke4ahs]

View embedded media

You seriously don’t understand the racism factor involved with placements of interstates?

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

There's a nice drive on a state highway for you from Flagstaff to Sedona.

Dozens of switchbacks. No water. No guardrails either. It's absolutely beautiful.

I took that drive with a large U-Haul truck pulling my daughter's car behind me. My wife and daughter were scared, but it wasn't all that bad. Their original plan to move my daughter from San Diego to Flagstaff was for them to rent the truck and pull the car themselves. I killed that plan soon as I hear it. I told them I could take off from work for this!

 

[mattndallas]

Can barely watch this...

 

[zeke4ahs]

I mistakenly thought that I would grab the best seat in the house at the 2019 US Open at Pebble Beach...in the very left (facing the green) top of the below grandstand, so I could see the action on #7 green, then the tee shots down #8.

Got to the course at gate open and secured my spot.

Lasted about 3 groups. Between the wind, the shaking of the stands as people got up and left in between groups, I couldn't do it. Felt like if this thing failed, and fell towards #8, I was going over the edge of the cliff. 😄

This pic is about mid stand (high), and isn't over on the edge like I was...still kinda daunting...

I can’t do Assembly Hall balcony any more I’m sure. I remember one time I had that seat in the very top row in the aisle. ( to get every single seat possible) I didn’t stand the entire game because I knew I’d go tumbling down and go splat in the middle of Assembly Hall.

 

[Stuffshot]

You are actually pretty secure in a hot air balloon. The basket is taller than it looks.

My hot air balloon ride was almost boring. Still air ( like 3-5 mph). Perfectly quiet (except we talked to all the dogs looking up at us.

It was fun and I'd highly recommend.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I'm not familiar with that power plant, but I'm a qualified engineer in 1200 LB steam, 600 LB steam and diesel. I was past my watch standing days when I got to gas turbine ships, but they're actually easier to learn and manage than any of the other three. I know how they run. I would guess that ship was a diesel ship and they have diesel electrical generators. Ships have more than one. Sounds like they lost control systems causing the generators to shut down or the switchboards to switch to auxiliary. The main engines may have shut down as well, or they lost steering which would cause them to go to neutral on the props so they don't just steam forward without being able to control direction. The symptoms indicate that they lost main power, and it seems like the emergency generator may have switched on just before the collision. It could be a case of losing power and control at just the wrong time. If they were far enough from the bridge the immediate action would have been to drop anchor. Looks like they may have done that, but if the bridge is within the swing arch, they're still going to hit it anyway, and they did. Most likely they were just hoping to slow down enough so they might not take out the bridge supports if they hit it. Obviously, they didn't slow down enough. By enough with a ship that size it would have to be dead in the water. Even then the current was taking them into the bridge rather than away so it might have been hopeless.

Yeah, I'm guessing a ship that size with that much cargo, even just drifting into the bridge would have carried enough momentum to topple it.

 

[larsIU]

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

 

[larsIU]

I'm doing this til they lock the thread.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

I'm doing this til they lock the thread.

 

[UncleMark]

I'm doing this til they lock the thread.

You do know you can be banned from specific threads, don't you?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Yeah, I'm guessing a ship that size with that much cargo, even just drifting into the bridge would have carried enough momentum to topple it.

@Aloha Hoosier how fast do you think a ship drifting with a current in a tidal estuary like that can get up to? Back of the napkin math says that a ship that size, fully laden, would be carrying the energy equivalent of a Tomahawk missile somewhere between 5-10 knots.

Which is honestly not as bad as I would have guessed, but still a lot.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

You do know you can be banned from specific threads, don't you?

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

@Aloha Hoosier how fast do you think a ship drifting with a current in a tidal estuary like that can get up to? Back of the napkin math says that a ship that size, fully laden, would be carrying the energy equivalent of a Tomahawk missile somewhere between 5-10 knots.

Which is honestly not as bad as I would have guessed, but still a lot.

Enough to knock out a bridge though

 

[UncleMark]

@Aloha Hoosier how fast do you think a ship drifting with a current in a tidal estuary like that can get up to? Back of the napkin math says that a ship that size, fully laden, would be carrying the energy equivalent of a Tomahawk missile somewhere between 5-10 knots.

Which is honestly not as bad as I would have guessed, but still a lot.

Guy on NPR today said it was going about 8 knots (~9-10 mph), which is the normal speed in that circumstance.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Damn it you guys are going to make me need to watch it again. Most quotable show ever!

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Guy on NPR today said it was going about 8 knots (~9-10 mph), which is the normal speed in that circumstance.

There you have it. Bridge had no chance.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Enough to knock out a bridge though

Incredible to think where we are at from pulling goods to market on an oxcart just a few centuries ago.

 

[BradStevens]

 

[Stuffshot]

Incredible to think where we are at from pulling goods to market on an oxcart just a few centuries ago.

It's also incredible how much the oldtimers could haul too.

I toured the USS Constitution in the 1990s when it was getting refurbished and thought it was huge. I assume the non-military sailing ships were just as big too, but it was much bigger than I expected.

And, reading about the Civil War, it still floors me to read about the wagon trains that carried supplies for those armies -- some were 20 miles long and had 600 wagons. Amazing.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

@Aloha Hoosier how fast do you think a ship drifting with a current in a tidal estuary like that can get up to? Back of the napkin math says that a ship that size, fully laden, would be carrying the energy equivalent of a Tomahawk missile somewhere between 5-10 knots.

Which is honestly not as bad as I would have guessed, but still a lot.

They can go faster than that. You see them out in the ocean going 15 Knots or better. Time is money, of course the faster they go the more they'll take in fuel and fuel cost. They typically don't go much over 5 knots when going in or out of the harbor. With the current they'd go a little faster because it's harder to turn with current behind the ship.

 

[larsIU]

@Aloha Hoosier how fast do you think a ship drifting with a current in a tidal estuary like that can get up to? Back of the napkin math says that a ship that size, fully laden, would be carrying the energy equivalent of a Tomahawk missile somewhere between 5-10 knots.

Which is honestly not as bad as I would have guessed, but still a lot.

Yep. Same numbers I got.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

It's also incredible how much the oldtimers could haul too.

I toured the USS Constitution in the 1990s when it was getting refurbished and thought it was huge. I assume the non-military sailing ships were just as big too, but it was much bigger than I expected.

And, reading about the Civil War, it still floors me to read about the wagon trains that carried supplies for those armies -- some were 20 miles long and had 600 wagons. Amazing.

When I visited it, I was amazed by how small it is! Imagine over 400 officers and crew on a ship that size. That's tight.

 

[DANC]

Lmao

View embedded media

Joe's only lying when he moves his lips.

Was he whispering when he said it?

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Incredible to think where we are at from pulling goods to market on an oxcart just a few centuries ago.

One of the most interesting facts I’ve heard recently on Hardcore History was that the Japanese were still using Oxen to transport new aircraft from factories to ports and transit points.

Imagine that in the 1940s while trying to fight the US (primarily)? It’s insanity.

 

[DANC]

It is a heights thing for me. I hate flying

I can't stand heights - I can't even stand next to a window that's high up. Can't go outside of a skyscraper at all on those tours. I don't like movies or TV shows that have people hanging out of buildings or climbing rocks and mountains. Hands get sweaty.

But flying doesn't bother me. Neither do bridges, really, but I used to be terrified of them as a kid.

 

[All4You]

 

[DANC]

Pretty bad motion sickness. Just got off a cruise and I need to invest in Dramamine

Only time it really bothered me was on a whale-watching boat in Hawaii.

I missed most of the whales because i was hanging overboard at the end of the boat. Seasickness is no joke.

I'm surprised I'm not worse - most in my family have motion sickness and can't ride in the back seat of a car.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I'm not familiar with that power plant, but I'm a qualified engineer in 1200 LB steam, 600 LB steam and diesel. I was past my watch standing days when I got to gas turbine ships, but they're actually easier to learn and manage than any of the other three. I know how they run. I would guess that ship was a diesel ship and they have diesel electrical generators. Ships have more than one. Sounds like they lost control systems causing the generators to shut down or the switchboards to switch to auxiliary. The main engines may have shut down as well, or they lost steering which would cause them to go to neutral on the props so they don't just steam forward without being able to control direction. The symptoms indicate that they lost main power, and it seems like the emergency generator may have switched on just before the collision. It could be a case of losing power and control at just the wrong time. If they were far enough from the bridge the immediate action would have been to drop anchor. Looks like they may have done that, but if the bridge is within the swing arch, they're still going to hit it anyway, and they did. Most likely they were just hoping to slow down enough so they might not take out the bridge supports if they hit it. Obviously, they didn't slow down enough. By enough with a ship that size it would have to be dead in the water. Even then the current was taking them into the bridge rather than away so it might have been hopeless.

I think the ship was probably a diesel electric affair. And that the ship probably had at least 2. What kind of single point failure would cause the whole thing to shut down? I can’t conceive of that. I took the engineers tour of the mechanical parts of a tourist ship and I recall it had three diesels and three generators, but only two were needed, the third was for emergency use. My son works in a place where it is vital that certain diesel compressors never fail. Each operating engine has a back up that always idles and kicks in an emergency.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

One of the most interesting facts I’ve heard recently on Hardcore History was that the Japanese were still using Oxen to transport new aircraft from factories to ports and transit points.

Imagine that in the 1940s while trying to fight the US (primarily)? It’s insanity.

The Germans used a lot of horses during the war as well. We think of them as a mechanized force and they were, but not at all totally mechanized.