Allen's Buyout / Coaching Hot Board
- Thread starter fpeaugh
- Start date
You're completely living in an alternate reality when it comes to Wilson vs Debord. Debord was at UT for 2 years and they were mediocre at best with their best QB in a decade in Junior/Senior Dobbs plus plenty of playmakers like Kamara.
Here's how their offenses stack up nationally in terms of total offense:
2017: KW 4th MD 63rd
2016: KW 55th MD 41st
2015: KW 16th MD 50th
Ran circles around him? KW had a better offense at IU than Debord had at Tennessee with several pro athletes.
Lagow's other college offers were from UNLV and Colorado State. After he originally signed with U Conn and left before the season began. He then tried to walk-on at OK State, but left when he found out how many QBs they had.
He played on the worst team in a league called the SWJFC, where his team finished last of 7 teams in both 2014 & 2015.
Cisco was 2-7 in 2015 and lost their last 6 games. He was all-HM SWJFC after 2015, meaning coaches (presumably) thought he was the 3rd or 4th best QB in that 7 team league.
In 2016, Lagow completed 57.8% of his passes, with 19 TDs and 17 ints. His #s this year were 15/8, with 1 yd less per pass and 58.3% completion % and a slightly lower QB rating.
Long and short is he wouldn't have "shined" this year under Wilson or any other HC, and it's on your boy Wilson that he was 1 of the 2 best options Allen had. That said, I agree DeBord sucked.
Search firms haven't helped us as much as people like to think. They are useless. They obviously didn't uncover Wilson's past. You don't just stumble around in a dorm your first week on campus, lit, without that being an issue somewhere before at your previous stops. You could take 5 people off this board to compose a good thorough search (minus fpeaugh and Ord 12.2) and come out cheaper than a search firm.
Welshman you old Guinness drinking warhorse--how have you been? As always my friend, you are the most rational and educated poster out there. Happy Holidays to you
doin' fine, Mark; looks like my other alma mater, having jump-screwed the shark-pooch with Schiano, is now pursuing The Mullet. Lively days down in K-ville, to be sure.
not sure what to think about DeBord. On the one hand, I agree with some of the criticisms of his playcalling, but I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and think, if he were in the room, he'd say something like "I didn't like the playcalling either, but what the &%^$ could I do when I had a non-running QB behind an OL that couldn't do pass-pro, followed by a redshirt frosh QB who can't (yet) throw the ball downfield, and Coleman and Howard are playing on Sundays?"
I fear some IU fans are simply assuming the OL will automatically improve substantially in 2018, and that Ramsey's arm strength will automatically improve in 2018 too, but IMO neither is a given; time will tell. And I also fear that the drop-off on defense will be greater than some IU fans are anticipating. But at least they don't open against Ahia State or play Wisky, so there's that.
Those calling for Allen to fire DeBord I suspect miss the point: Allen likely would never fire his friend and, at most, might not stand in his way if DeBord decided to retire. For all I know DeBord might be day-dreaming about retiring and fishing, or he might be spending 16 hours a day recruiting and scheming up a new offense built around a running QB (Ramsey, Tronti, or the JUCO Wilson) and shorter passes, and be itching for spring practice to arrive.
It's up to Allen's staff to keep the recruiting class together as much as possible (especially the kids like Taylor and Walker) despite missing out on a bowl game. No easy task, since more and more out-of-state schools are recruiting Indiana these days.
I worked for 20 years in journalism so I'll "volunteer" for duty; I've "checked out" more than a few people, in my day. (BTW: By "volunteer," I mean I expect to get paid for my work!)
This is the dumbest post in the last 5 years on what can be a very dumb discussion board . . .
. . . or you're a PU troll trying to scuttle IU's recruiting.
Pound sand, fpeaugh. Pound sand.
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I understand your point but just look at the stats. In 2015 we gave up a minimal amount of sacks. In 2016 that number rose at we lost some lineman, then by 2017 the number peaked.
Here are some stats: We gave up 13 sacks in 15’ which led to Sudfeld having a great season with minimal receiving talent. He had all day to throw however because of that line, and we rushed for over 2500 yards begins that line. Only gave up 13 QB hurries. WE rushed for 2,736 yards. Which is outstanding to be honest. Two 1,000 yard rushers. Opponents rushed for 2500 yards, so on average we won the game, which is why the 15’ team took Ohio State, michigan, Michigan State and Iowa down to the wire. If you remember, we also gave up a 20 point lead to Rutgers. Went undefeated out of conference. That’s 100% on Wilson recruiting well at the offensive line positions in the 11’ and 12’ classes, and Knight had a good season as a tight end. That’s why that team was arguably the best. That team took OSU to the final play with Howard and Sudfeld knocked out of the game.
In 2016 without Spriggs and read, and Feeney getting hurt, the number popped to 29 sacks. Not only did sacks more than double, but hurried increased to 18. Lagow was saved however because because we still managed to rush for 1,979 yards. Opponents rushed for
2,085 yards. The weaker rush game directly correlated with worse quarterback play because the two go hand in hand. The weak pass blocking also correlated with worse play, but having serviceable guys from the 12’ class like Bailey, Rogers and Feeney once he got back from injury still managed to give the team a serviceable rushing attack and that directly concern correlated with a slightly less impressive 6-6 season than in 15’.
The 17’ season and quarterback play directly correlated with the talent lost on the line, and the stats and film back this up. The team gave up 29 sacks again, hurries spiked up to 25, and rush yards plummeted to 1,561 compared to over 2700 in 15’ and 1900 in 16’. Opponents rushed for 1925, so we lost the rushing Battle by the widest Margin in the past three seasons. That correlated with a weaker completion percentage, more throw aways, and more errors at the QB position. Obviously when a team can rush 4 and play cover 3 or cover 2 behind the front 4 and still get pressure, you are screwed as an offense. There is no gameplan that can overcome that. If they rush 4 and play cover 2/3 you’re going to have to go dink and dunk, and at some point errors will be made. If they have to blitz to get pressure and respect the run game, you get a lot of soft coverage, or man, and you can exploit the holes or man to man matchups. All of those factors directly correlated with a worse performance.
That’s been my only point on this thread. I like Wilson, and i’m Not trying to go out of my way to support Allen, because I was gone by the time he got there. Never met the guy. But just from observation, the team has progressively performed worse in terms of overall outcomes, even when Wilson was still here. 15’ May have been the short-term peak, but unfortunately the defense was weak. I played defense so i’m being objective haha. It was a bad defense and we didn’t execute, but in spite of that, controlling the run game made that team the most competitive. 16’, even with Wilson still there, was a slight drop back season. Lost to a lot of teams by a wider margin, including OSU, and didn’t go undefeated out of conference due to the loss against wake. The Purdue game was also more competitive that the year before ect. Anyway you want to measure it, 16’ was a slight step back even with Wilson. And 17’ was obviously the worse year.
So may point in all of that is this, Wilson would’ve had the same issues. I love the guy, but he screwed up the offensive line recruiting at the end of his tenure for whatever reason. The same decline that you saw in the offense under deboard would have been seen under Wilson for the mere fact that there were few players to replace the ‘11 and 12’ offensive line classes. When guys like Eckert and Ralston Evans got hurt, and Kaminsky decided to not return for 5th years, there was enough depth to make up for the departures, and the line didn’t miss a beat. But behind the 12’ class, you didn’t have the same level of offensive line players, so a drop off and a weak season were imenent.
We were blessed with a good o-line for so long that I think most on the board thought it was a foregone conclusion that we’d continue trending upwards, but a lot of people missed that there were not key replacements for the offensive lineman who were lost the past few years. Cronk is still young, and there is a lot of youth, so they’ll have to develop, but they weren’t going to be ready to role in 17’. Based on the stats, film, and logic, it’s easy to see that 17 was going to be a down year, even with returning Lagow.
The oline was hurt by two guys that you did not mention, DeAndre Herron and Timmy Gardner. Both were high level recruits out of high school. IU missed on them out of high school but got them to town out of JUCO. I think those guys were being counted on to be something.
Gardner was a 4 star recruit and Herron was a very high end three star recruit. They both flopped, wouldn't they have been seniors on this roster??
Gardner was a 4 star recruit and Herron was a very high end three star recruit. They both flopped, wouldn't they have been seniors on this roster??
Herron would’ve been a Senior in 16’ and would’ve helped when Feeney went down. Think he felt like he didn’t have a shot to pass Feeney or Bailey or Martin, so he graduated and took off. Gardner also transferred to Alcorn or some HSBC, and from what I saw he was playing pretty well there. I think he was a senior this year. Herron also at least got a tryout with the colts, or a workout, so he could’ve at least been serviceable.
agree that CKW would've had a lot of the same issues, and that's why for me the 1st red flag in all of this (well before Allen, let alone DeBord, came on board) was when Franklin was able to flip Tommy Stevens. I remember vividly at the time a number of IU fans saying "no worries, IU's in on 2 more in-state QBs who may be even better prospects than Stevens" but unfortunately those 2 were Brandon Peters and Hunter Johnson.
Hence the "11th-hour" recruitment of Lagow, which might've worked out if Wilson had managed to keep the OL pipeline going post-Spriggs & Feeney. One of the great mysteries to me is how Wilson (who, regardless of what anyone thinks of him as a Head Coach or even Off. Coordinator, has always had an excellent reputation as an OL coach) was unable to sustain the OL and QB recruiting (with or without Littrell leaving).
Hence the "11th-hour" recruitment of Lagow, which might've worked out if Wilson had managed to keep the OL pipeline going post-Spriggs & Feeney. One of the great mysteries to me is how Wilson (who, regardless of what anyone thinks of him as a Head Coach or even Off. Coordinator, has always had an excellent reputation as an OL coach) was unable to sustain the OL and QB recruiting (with or without Littrell leaving).
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Agree silly name calling is lame. Clearly the offense was IU's weak link this year so concern about his effectiveness is legit to discuss. But he's far from "a bum" and you should be careful playing with the Karma Gods!
He tried to sustain the OL but simply failed IMHO. He had a stretch going. Matte, Rahrig, Reed, Spriggs, Camiel, Feeney all at least undrafted FA contracts, and Herron even got a tryout, so it’s really difficult to sustain that level. The year Sudfeld went down, they rushed for 3,100 yards behind those guys. So when you have a host of guys move on to the NFL or graduate it’s just hard to maintain that level of recruiting. And Matte/Rahrig weren’t even his recruits.
So I don’t fault CKW when it comes to the Oline. The reality of not being Ohio State is that you’ll have depth issues and recruiting challenges and down years. Look at Iowa. It happens to most schools that have to depend on finding (diamonds in the rough). We just had a hot stretch for a while, and the guys now can develop and be better next year. My only point, which you agree with, is that he would’ve had the same issues as Allen, and I also agree that QB recruiting was suspect.
A couple factors played into the QB recruiting IMHO. I don’t put the OL on Wilson but I 100% fault him for the QB situation. In 2013 if you remember we essentially had a three man race for QB, and CKW was unwilling to be decisive. That turned a lot of recruits off that CKW had a three man rotation going at QB without really knowing who would play from week to week. When he failed to name a starter going into 14’ Roberson left early, Coffman left before him, and a lot of people don’t know that Sudfeld was halfway out the door, but Roberson just happened to fold first.
That saga turned a lot of prospects off.
Secondly, Sudfeld got hurt in 14’ and that completely turned us from a balanced attack to a run heavy attack. That turned a lot of recruits off, and turned what would’ve been a Bowl year into a disappointing 4-8 year. The rushing attack that we had to resort to did land Jordan Howard, but it turned a ton of QB’s away, and part of the reason why we had no backup (Roberson) was because Wilson was indecisive. Roberson would’ve stayed if a choice had simply been made sooner. He was even willing to play WR and then could’ve come in as a backup when Sudfeld went down.
Lastly, besides mismanaging the QB situation, he flat out missed on recruits. I’ll be blunt since he no longer plays at IU... none of us knew why Danny Cameron was a choice to offer a scholarship to. It was kind of bizarre. He had no offers, was headed to prep school, came to a camp and then was signed in June and then practicing with the team the next day. That rubbed a lot of guys the wrong way and was a questionable decision on Wilson’s end which wasted a QB scholarship. It was appearent from day 1 that Cameron wasn’t really a division 1 quarterback, and a lot of guys just viewed it as bizarre and we figured that’d hurt the program in the future, but it wasn’t my problem because I was going to be out of there before things got ugly. Secondly, we also viewed Diamont as a questionable offer. I personally thought that Riley Neal who’s Ball state’s starting QB could be decent with our developement and system, and he was in state, but they offered many guys who were just questionable. I got the impression however that CKW really thought Diamont could be a full time QB, so I think he missed. With Cameron, I got the impression that daddy Cam had a talk with Wilson, and that could explain the random offer at midnight in June.
Lastly, Wilson missed on covington and Hale. I got the impression that he wanted to get them in as athletes, and use them as emergency backups if his plan failed, but they really wanted to play other positions which is why both switched back to skill positions. He really thought covington could develop and he liked Hales skill set too, but there heart wasn’t into QB, and they’re amazing players at their new positions. So even his emergency back up plan was miscalculated, because it was really obvious that their hearts were in other positions.
Thus, we are at the point we are at now. We went from having virtually three starters in 13’ to a rough situation now. So rough that Reese Taylor starting as a true freshman is a real possibility.
Well said. The "I'm an expert" views of these "It is so obviously going to crash/burn" types are just annoying. The decision has been made so either jump on board or walk away honorably and come back when he's gone (or when he's winning big and you want to say "I was wrong.")
Allen has great character, strong Indiana ties (and to HS coaches) and does not lack for effort, integrity, accountability or enthusiasm. All important when building a culture and a program.
Wilson did some good things, but in actuality, his last 3 years were easily as frustrating as this year in terms of games that got away that should have been W's, and that frustration is what is unfairly causing Allen to be judged a bit harsher than he should in my view.
But Allen has to hold the entire Off coaching staff accountable and needs to find ways to do just enough to win those 3-4 games they truly could have won this year. Can you imagine this board if they had been 9-3 this year? (which was truly possible) Things can change quickly in sports and you get one of those 9-3 years and other pins start dropping in your favor.
I for one would hate to see Taylor get thrown to the wolves like that, no matter how dynamic an athlete he is. Hopefully they can beat out UK for Wilson and, if anything, experiment with Taylor at other positions where they can put the ball in his hands in open space.
You are just a Wilson Homer at this point. Lagow would not have had different happy feet with Wilson given this year's line, WR injuries and RB play. Lagow (nice kid and was a good leader by example) was seemingly incapable of playing without at least one pick a game, see first pass of Purdue game.
Wilson took us from 1-11 to steady 6-6 level, but he had just as many (a LOT actually) frustrating losses in his years 3-5 that frankly cemented the "same old IU" dilemma Allen is now fighting against. How can we ever forget the Rutgers game, the Minnesota laterall pass/fumble, and the numerous go for it on our own 40 yd line only to not get the first and give the other team terrific field position. Or not being able (pre-Allen) to hold a team on defense and Michigan scoring with about a min left going down the field to win the game.
The ship has sailed, like it or not. When the decision is made, you then follow the direction the leader has chosen or resign and move on. Give ideas how to improve things via constructive criticism with solutions. But pounding away on 20/20 hindsight critiques is for losers.
You neglected the choice you've made, which is to accept losing as an inevitable by-product of IU football. Indiana fans have exactly the kind of program many of them deserve, since they demand nothing more than the status quo.
That is such a generic, stereotypical & intellectually lazy thing to say. Yeah, everyone who is now backing Allen is just a whoa is me, we're no good, we'll take any 6-6 crumbs we can get...what a seriously stupid assessment.
After the 5-6 years of Wilson, who topped out at 6-6, Glass saw something he liked seeing day-to-day in Allen. Allen knows Defense for sure. I don't accept mediocrity over long haul. But am not treating Allen like he has to have IU near Rose Bowl after one year. I'm willing to let him build his staff & roster & culture.
If he continues to trend down, I could see him gone after year 3. But I'm not going there now because that hasn't happened and I'm willing to let him have a chance to be successful, which I think he may do.
Quit projecting your 20/20 hindsight and judgement onto others. You are not the only one who knows something about sports or football or people. There are always a few ways to see the same thing. Many people see it differently than you.
But most rational people understand if Glass is safe, as he appears to be, than Allen likely is for at least 3 seasons. Given that, why keep attacking and criticizing versus finding areas to highlight, offering constructive solutions for how to get better, etc?
It may be optimist versus pessimist view of the world. Simple as that.
Oh, it's not hindsight in any way but, since you accused me of being generic, I'll offer a specific example that demonstrates clearly what I said. You and several others accepted and believed improvement would occur in spite of the first time head coach's statements that he was only the coach of the defense, and that he was turning over the responsibilities for the offense to his chosen coordinator. And who was that? A guy who was being pushed into retirement because UT wasn't going to retain him. Oh, and he brought a Graduate Assistant as his first time ever quarterback coach. And then the "I'm the coach of the defense" hired a receivers coach who was being pushed out of Ole Miss, an O line coach who didn't have a job to be pushed out of, and Mike Hart. IU went from having 5 very well respected and accomplished offensive coaches to none. And you and quite a few others considered this an upgrade and forecast great results, against all logic.
Not sure how that's considered hindsight. It was more accurately incompetence, and they have a long off season to contemplate that, even as you and a few others are already predicting great success for that unit next year. The acceptance of losing . . .
Those are all legitimate grievances. I would agree that a coach has to be a coach of the whole team. That’s where I think Wilson should’ve improved sooner too. I get the impression that great coaches don’t just coach one side, and if they see issues on the other side, they fix them. That’s why it’s such a rough job. So I get that. And yes, some of the hirings were suspect.
With that being said, it’s still too early to get a clear picture of what the future holds because the team was trending downwards. Statistically it’s just a fact. The improvement on defense in 16’, statistically did not offset the decline on offense, and net yardage wise IU was outplayed. With the key losses on the O-line, there’s no evidence that Wilson wouldn’t have gone 5-7 or worse if the team was already trending down. So you can see how it’s hard to measure how exactly this project will turn out. If the team doesn’t improve, then obviously we have to question if Allen is the man for this job. But in all honesty, this could be a multi year rebuilding process, and again, it would have been under Wilson as well. That’s why i’m Willing to give Allen three years. That’ll be an accurate gauge of if he’s the man or not. I just don’t see any way that the team would’ve had a different record under Wilson if they were statistically trending down when you factor in special teams, offense and defense.
It's not 20/20 hindsight. I'm giving constructive ideas of what to do going forward. Fire Allen and go get a real HC. Others will see this in 2-3 years but I'm not ok waiting. By then too much damage will be done.
Right as rain. 2013 Recruiting class had zero OL in it. 2014 consisted of Herron and Gardner, along with Delray Baker and Wes Martin. Herron and Gardner were both red flag recruits and contributed zero. Baker is not a Big 10 caliber player IMO, and Martin is okay, but not a stand out. Littlejohn is overmatched even as a junior and is consistently blown backwards and creates very little movement. Cronk started at LT at 260 pounds in 2016 and played on 1 leg this year. Stepniak and Norwah are not Big 10 guys at this point. Brandon Knight is out of position at RT and he didn't play well this year IMO. Those issues are all Wilson and Frey's. Doubling down on bad recruiting at OL (or lack thereof in key years), was Wilson's absolute inability to recruit QBs to Indiana. Sudfeld was Litrell's recruit. After that, I'm not sure Wilson (and Johns), brought in a big 10 QB. You have to wonder if the QBs in Indiana were gunshy about playing for Wilson given the whole Dusty/Gunner Kiel deal and the skuttlebutt that went on with Dusty Kiel and Ed Wright Baker at practices and the alleged treatment of Dusty and ultimate decommitment of Gunner.
Don't forget Roberson disappearing, although it is tough to say he would have been a better player than Sudfeld.
How much longer are you going to continue this inane narrative related to your obsessive desire to see Allen fired? It would be crazy to fire him, it's not going to happen, and the fact that you're "not ok waiting" is not going to change things.
Where was this thread when we got ran out of our own gym by Indiana State on your side of the board?
Fire Allen now is like saying to you: not happening go root for Purdue. Maybe you are right in 3 yrs, but until then it’s not happening as the wheels did not completely fall off the bus.
Per I Love Lucy saying “I and others said Off coaches were an upgrade”. Think that one shows he is not afraid to make up things as he goes to feel justified railing against the board.
I am not aware “Heard was being pushed out at Ole Miss” as he suggests. (Sent lot of guys to the NFL). I had never said OMG I love DeBord. Completely made up! In fact I admitted at the hire, I don’t want to practice ageism but he wasn’t what I had in my mind as the hot younger offensive whiz OC. (Not sure he was being pushed out either)
I was underwhelmed by grad asst QB coach who clearly was DeBord guy/hire.
I also have stated since beginning the OLine coach Hiller didn’t knock my socks off at all, but didn’t want to base that on book by cover either. I liked idea of Frey, IU grad at Boston College. (And believe Hiller was on his way to Univ Houston from South FL so not sure he was “out of a job” at time of his hire)
So Lucy, not sure what motivates you take to say I (or others) were calling those hires an upgrade but be aware people know when you are wmade up stuff.
Coach Allen I’m sure is a loyal guy, but he has to be careful to not let that sink him if these guys don’t deliver.
And I get and agree that he should be just HC, give up DC role (it’s not like he won’t be involved) and take a more objective view of the whole team and make unemotional decisions when assessing the performance of all of his coaches.
So no, people for Allen now and Ahead and wanting him to be successful do NOT also just accept losing or mediocrity just because you think that is what keeping equals.
Stop labeling, stop hating and either get on board with current reality (Allen not being fired) or take an IU timeout or make your allegiance with a program you feel has an AD doing it the way you feel it needs to be done so you can be happier in your sports life.
Per I Love Lucy saying “I and others said Off coaches were an upgrade”. Think that one shows he is not afraid to make up things as he goes to feel justified railing against the board.
I am not aware “Heard was being pushed out at Ole Miss” as he suggests. (Sent lot of guys to the NFL). I had never said OMG I love DeBord. Completely made up! In fact I admitted at the hire, I don’t want to practice ageism but he wasn’t what I had in my mind as the hot younger offensive whiz OC. (Not sure he was being pushed out either)
I was underwhelmed by grad asst QB coach who clearly was DeBord guy/hire.
I also have stated since beginning the OLine coach Hiller didn’t knock my socks off at all, but didn’t want to base that on book by cover either. I liked idea of Frey, IU grad at Boston College. (And believe Hiller was on his way to Univ Houston from South FL so not sure he was “out of a job” at time of his hire)
So Lucy, not sure what motivates you take to say I (or others) were calling those hires an upgrade but be aware people know when you are wmade up stuff.
Coach Allen I’m sure is a loyal guy, but he has to be careful to not let that sink him if these guys don’t deliver.
And I get and agree that he should be just HC, give up DC role (it’s not like he won’t be involved) and take a more objective view of the whole team and make unemotional decisions when assessing the performance of all of his coaches.
So no, people for Allen now and Ahead and wanting him to be successful do NOT also just accept losing or mediocrity just because you think that is what keeping equals.
Stop labeling, stop hating and either get on board with current reality (Allen not being fired) or take an IU timeout or make your allegiance with a program you feel has an AD doing it the way you feel it needs to be done so you can be happier in your sports life.
"Roberson disappearing" was perhaps the single biggest setback during the Wilson era. Roberson ended the 2013 season, against Purdue, with the greatest performance by a QB in IU history. The following June, he abruptly and unexpectedly left. Four months later, Sudfeld went down against Iowa and Wilson had no viable backup. We regressed from 5-7 in 2013 to 4-8 in 2014, and Tommy Stevens bailed in November 2014 during a long IU losing streak and after watching our inept offense lose to Penn State. Oh, what could have been ...
He had an unbelievable game for sure. I got the sense that Wilson never really saw him as a viable long term option because of the throw game and could he take a pounding long term in the Big 10. Roberson at IU, on some level, was chaos theory on offense, which was really not what Wilson wanted, but he should have learned to accept it. I always thought that Wilson thought he could turn Sudfeld into Sam Bradford. Don't get me wrong, Sudfeld had a fantastic career--I enjoyed him quite a bit when he was healthy.
Roberson's first year at Illinois St was scary--3,221 passing yards, 57% completion percentage and over 1k in rushing yards.
Year two was not good, however. 2200 passing yards and 49% completion percentage, and his rushing yards dropped by almost 300 (although he played 2 less games and actually had a higher yards per carry.
I always thought Ed Wright Baker could have been decent (not great).
I liked Wilson, but he bungled the QB position so badly from start to finish in terms of building depth, etc. I blame some of it on Johns, who in my mind, was a crappy recruiter. Xander Diamont was not a Big 10 QB, and when Sudfeld went down, they had nothing. Austin King was not a Big 10 QB.
Unfortunately, I never thought Stevens was ever going to stay committed to IU, but he's a good QB and would have started for 3 years.
How many Scholly QBs does a program reasonably be able to keep knowing players want to play (and don’t always appreciate that injuries do happen, stay patient).
I’d think 4? IU should get one more to go with Taylor, who I hope gets a shot to be ARE 2.0 but is under-sized.
I’d think 4? IU should get one more to go with Taylor, who I hope gets a shot to be ARE 2.0 but is under-sized.
Because that was after one game. Talk to me at the end of the year.
And Archie inherited a program that missed the tournament and lost 3 players early to the NBA.
Allen took over a bowl team that returned 16 starters including QB.
I'm in no way committed to Archie. If he doesn't get it done I'll want him fired just like I did Crean after 3 years.
whereas, to date all TS is at State Pen is a mop-up/WR/KR/maybe-wildcat guy, which IMO is less than optimal use of his talent, but Franklin can probably sign a 4- or 5-star QB anytime he wants to
which gets us back to the age-old debate about how some recruits want to go where they think they'll start and then hope they win, and some recruits want to go where they think they'll win and then hope they start...
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The only thing of which I am certain is thank goodness Wilson is gone. If you cannot see the link between his personality and the lack of quality QB's you must have your eyes closed.
Who cares about getting the big name at quarterback when you can make two star recrtuits NFL caliber players. Wilson didn’t get enough out of his staff, but he got a lot from his players. We would have won a lot of games with Wilson and Allen on staff. Thanks Fred.
The evidence isn’t there to back that up... again. There’s no reason as to why Feeney and Spriggs should’ve been low rated besides recruiting bias. Rahrig was a lacrosse player but great athlete. Coleman was a bit underrated as well. It could be that Wilson simply had solid players who were the victim of recruiting bias because of their offer list. But not every two star is a bad player. Kofi Hughes for example. I give Wilson credit too, but it could be moreso that Wilson also had good under the radar players, and he was great early on at identifying those guys. At some point, recruiting went south. Here’s an example. Jason Spriggs was a 3 Star with only 1 power 5 offer, in large part because he played in Concord in the middle of nowhere. He was 6’7” 260-270 coming out, with 4.8 speed, and a basketball background. Wilson, before even developing him, said he was the best O-line “athlete” he had been around since Lane Johnson and Trent Williams at Oklahoma. Contrast that with Hunter a LittleJohn who had multiple power 5 offers coming out, but was statistically the worst Center in the league. But being from Ohio, and getting exposure, helped his rating.
It could be that a lot of the players Wilson had early on came in with the potential for NFL talent, but people didn’t know it because of their offer lists. It could be that Wilson recruited some guys with higher rankings later on, but they simply were overrated and not as talented as the players he had before, so they were bound to have to rebuild and find new recruits. Maybe CKW goes 4-8 this year, or 3-9.... we honestly don’t know. But people are dramatically discounting three factors... 1. that IU May have actually not been as bad as advertised while Wilson was coaching because the talent may have simply been under the radar.
2. That because the team had talent, it got to the point where although Wilson was a good coach, at times the team had to win IN SPITE of Wilson and his staff, not because of Wilson and his staff. I’ve posted before that not even every defensive player had a playbook or was held accountable to actually knowing what to do. Didn’t understand basic concepts because there was no structure ect. Then factor in his questionable play calling... the backwards pass against Minnesota in 13’, not running out the clock against Rutgers in 15’ but proceeding to throw the ball ect. That’s what I mean by the team had to still perform in spite of Wilson at times, and that’s been discounted by Wilson supporters.
3. Lastly, that Wilson would’ve had the same issues, as other posters have stated, so calling for Allen’s head is a bit irrational at this point if the final record is what you care about, because Wilson would’ve likely had the same, or worse record. Greg Frey walking through that door wasn’t going to make coy Cronk any less hurt this season. It wasn’t going to make Delroy Baker a star. It wasn’t going to turn LittleJohn into a starting Big 10 Center. It could simply be that even with the past staff and Wilson, his recruiting misses caught up to IU football, and this year exposed it.
A lot of people have a hard time adding these factors, understandably, because they saw the team trending upwards and also didn’t like the way that Wilson was let go. So those biases make it easy to attribute the losing to a new staff. On the opposite side, some fans couldn’t stand Wilson, so hold Allen up as the savior, which is also irrational. The truth is somewhere in the middle. We don’t know what Allen will become, and we don’t know who he will bring in to rebuild the D-line and offensive Lines, which will really determine how far this team can go.
It's interesting to me that you mentioned Riley Neal of BSU.
I saw him play early this year and was very impressed with the guy. To me, he looked like a much smarter and more athletic Lagow---he's like 6'6" 240 lbs. At the time, I specifically wondered why in the hell we had not recruited him. I know nothing about his HS career, or whether we ever looked at him, and I guess he got hurt after the 3rd game this year, but that guy is talented,imo.
At the time, multiple guys on the team that I would have conversations with wondered too. We were all confused. His HS highlights were solid. There were multiple players like that, and Wilson simply didn’t even consider recruiting them. Obviously we never told the coaches who to recruit, and kept those opinions to ourselves, but it was interesting to observe.
He got away from recruiting in state guys because it isn’t fashionable to get under the radar guys from Indiana, but that’s exactly what he did with his 12’ class, which was one of the better ones. Neal is a good example of a perfectly good athlete who just so happened to be from Muncie, Indiana and got overlooked, although he was 6’6” and athletic. With Wilson and a big 10 development program, Neal could’ve been very good here. Maybe we can get him as a graduate transfer down the road if we still don’t have a QB in 19’ LOL.
Huh? Do you remember Nate Sudfeld? One of the best QB's we've had in decades.
Look at what Wilson did with Lagow last year in terms of yardage. RL would've been a completely different QB this year if Wilson was still here. You can thank SB Fred for robbing him (and fans) of that.
Based on which metrics would he have been as good? So Feeney gets hurt, Camiel goes down, and his interceptions increased in 2016 and he had a drop off. What do you think would’ve happened in 2017 with his entire o-line essentially leaving? I just don’t see any logical reason as to how having Wilson would’ve suddenly made Lagow a better QB when he was a 58% passer with a decent offensive line. Without those guys, it was predictable that he’d play worse because he can take handle pressure. QB knockdowns increased this year, and they gave up 29 sacks, and hurries increased. To put that into perspective, in 2015, they gave up only 13 sacks and 15 hurries. That made Sudfeld look really good. Sudfeld would’ve struggled in 2017 with this terrible offensive line. I just don’t see how having Wilson fixes that issue, because the offensive trended downward in 2016, and all signs show that the downtrend was going to continue
As Corso is find of saying "not so fast." Sudfeld came because of Seth Litrell, not Kevin Wilson. And Lagow was not great in 2016 in almost every other metric than yardage.
