Pretty much an identical season? Bowling vs not is the same? What a loser mentality
Allen's Buyout / Coaching Hot Board
- Thread starter fpeaugh
- Start date
I think evidence, as well as objectivity and rational thought ( neither of which are your strong suits) clearly show that 2017 was extremely similar to 2016. Same strengths, same weaknesses, very similar results. The major difference was the brutality of the schedule and the strength of our opponents. Purdue, MSU, and Maryland were all better this year than last and all three were on the road instead of at home. Close losses instead of close wins. Add Wisconsin to the schedule instead of Nebraska at home. Factor in the extraordinary number of injuries this season. Not a step back at all. Just a much bigger hill to climb than the past few years. But you have shown time and again here that you never let objectivity get in the way of your predetermined narrative and bias.
Yes. I’m not saying it’s CTA’s fault, or even CKW’s fault. It’s a reality. Our lines were a disaster. On D we had to bring the house to consistently get sacks, and besides illinois, we had the worst O-line in the league if we are being objective. It is impossible to breakthrough in the league with that level of line play, and that is a disaster to an extent. Illinois is obviously the worst disaster in the league, and I’m not blaming Lovie Smith either because he inherited a mess as well, but the lines from the two teams make it very difficult to win in the league, and it could be classified as a disaster. Obviously I feel good about CTA based on how the players feel about him, and I think that he will get it corrected, but I can see why some people view the season as a disaster.
17’ was a step back to me, but again, not because of anything within CKW’s or CTA’s control. There were losses from the 15’ and 16’ teams that were going to take time to replace because the depth wasn’t there yet. So 16’ was slightly worse than 15’, but offset by Allen improving the defense. 17’ was the worst because the losses on the lines simply caught up to the team. When 4 guys on the line in 15’ and 16’ got into rookie minicamps and a minimum... you’re going to have a slight set back. Although we were equally talented at other position groups, the most vital positions had critical losses, and that’s the O-line and D-line. I don’t even blame CKW for that per se. It’s just the reality when you’re building a program, it takes a while to build depth. It appears as if this recruiting class is a step towards building defensive line depth, so when we lose a guy like Ralph Green III in the future, you won’t have freshman like Jerome Johnson trying to replace him, or guys like Barwick who haven’t gotten many minutes in the past, and instead you’ll have redshirt Juniors replacing seniors, and those redshirt juniors will have gotten minutes in the past and experience. That’s what it looks like Allen is building on the D-line, so you won’t see these kind of setbacks when guys graduate. I’m sure that CKW would’ve built that kind of depth too.
That has to be one of the all time most ridiculously stupid thread starters in board history. Are you kidding? Firing Allen would mean this team will be worse for years to come. This was a few key plays away from 8 wins.
Unbelievable. I think you must be a troll.
See what Purdue did in 1 year. No reason to believe we can't do the same thing with a good search. IMO there's no reason to put off the inevitable.
You may be onto something. Let's find a coach it has no history or ties to the school. We can advertise that he gets to play one of the toughest schedules in the country. Make sure to remind him that every coach since BoMcMillan has been fired.
Your point is well articulated......but someone, somewhere dropped the ball in 2014-2015 recruiting of OL. Herron and Gardner were outright busts. Others never developed. That has to be on somebody. Lead recruiters? Frey? Maybe it isn't on them. Maybe everybody whiffed, recruiting experts as well. When you are starting true frosh on the line like Cronk and Brandon Knight (in your 5th and 6th season as a coach), there are some serious development problems going on with the 2013, 2014 classes.
Actually, the 2013 class was a killer: no offensive linemen taken. That could have been a set of veteran, RS seniors this year.
Purdue got to six wins with a new coach. It was a good effort. I don't buy into this concept that they were Rutger-esque in their personnel. They had a good veteran group of defensive guys up front. A QB tandem that was better than our starters. Good job by Brohm and they had letdowns too: against Rutgers on the road and the meltdown against Nebraska.
Recall that DJ Durkin was also a first year coach in 2016 and went to a bowl his first season. It's not unprecedented. This year, he had a 2014 IU like season at QB. That was a very bad loss for our team. The special teams stunk up the joint that day and that was the difference.
You were a poster saying that Lagow gave us the best chance. I'm not sure you really understood the recipe for disaster that an immobile QB and awful offensive line will do to a team.
Gardner and Herron were busts. But at the time no one thought that. And with them it was more mental than physical because they transferred to lower level schools, but legitimately played well to the extent that had they played like that at IU they could’ve easily contributed in the Big Ten. Herron played so well when he transferred out of IU that he got multiple NFL looks, and even some Colts workouts. So I can’t fault CKW because there are few people at the time Herron and Gardner signed who weren’t happy about the signing. Almost any coach would’ve taken two guys with their size who were highly touted out of H.S..
Gardner is an interesting case. We had a GA at IU named Ryan Stancheck who got a real coaching job in 14’ as the OL coach at Alcorn. I think. He’s basically a young coach Frey. He got Gardner to Transfer to Alcorn and Gardner was a 5th year senior this season. He’s playing so well that NFL scouts are going in and out of Alcorn, and Gardner could legitimately be selected or at least get into an NFL camp in 18’. From knowing Gardner (who’s a good guy, he never got in trouble after his IU incident) and from observing Gardner, I think that his issues were 100% mental, and it’s hard for a recruiter to judge that. So I agree that Gardner and Herron were busts, and in different programs they played better, but that’s difficult to identify when you’re recruiting guys so I still can’t fault CKW. CKW also didn’t have a personality that could cater to players who had confidence issues or whatever the case may be. After literally going up against Knight and Gardner in practice, I’m 100% sure that Gardner is a flat out better player, but I don’t think that the staff ever felt comfortable with his up and down attitude and confidence issues, thus you end up with a guy who never reached his potential.
The point of all of that is... sometimes there are such complex dynamics in recruiting that I can’t fault a coach when guys don’t turn out. Sometimes it’s no ones fault. Herron, and Gardner are good guys, who simply weren’t going to be successful at IU for one reason or another. Hard to blame all of that on coaching. If they had fully developed, that would’ve patched up some offensive line issues in the 15’ and 16’ seasons. Guys like LittleJohn and Stepniak were also probably misses, but at the time a lot of people were happy to have them join too. Again, having seen them at the start of their careers live in practice, there was a huge gap between a guy like Jacob Bailey, and a guy like Stepniak, but at the time Stepniak signed, any fan or coach would’ve been happy to have him. It wasn’t until the guys signed and got in Uniform that we could say he was maybe a “bust.” Feeney is playing at a near pro bowl level, but was rated lower than some of the guys Wilson signed later on, but those guys ended up being busts. Maybe I’m biased towards CKW (which I am), but to me it sounds more like bad luck because no one would’ve predicted that a lot of guys wouldn’t be good. I’d throw Delroy Baker into the mix as a bust too, who NO ONE imagined would be a bust since he has tremendous size and had a Florida offer coming in. But from day one when he came during winter 14’ it was obvious that he simply wasn’t good, and he never got better. But that wasn’t until he actually got in Uniform that it was clear.
Everything you just described could also be looked at as the people at Indiana simply not developing their players. At some point in time, the coaches must step up and do a better job developing their players that they bring into the program.
Gardner was at Ohio State and Louisville originally had Herron I believe. Come on, the coaches have to develop these players. I looked up Wisconsin and Iowa's oline ratings according to Rivals as they came out of high school and I'm telling you, those schools have far better developmental coaches and programs. Their kids are NOT HIGHLY RATED for the most part.
Gardner was at Ohio State and Louisville originally had Herron I believe. Come on, the coaches have to develop these players. I looked up Wisconsin and Iowa's oline ratings according to Rivals as they came out of high school and I'm telling you, those schools have far better developmental coaches and programs. Their kids are NOT HIGHLY RATED for the most part.
I agree. I have a lot of respect for Iowa and Wisconsin and their player development. But something that I always got the impression of was that they actually have very good players who were simply underrated and that’s why I don’t think rankings matter. I would watch film and study guys, and Iowa flat out had better players, but I would look guys up and they’d be two stars. It wasn’t all player development. They flat out have better scouting and find guys who are under the radar. My girlfriend went to high school with Chris Borland, and I remember thinking when we played him, man that guys was underrated. He only had one offer. Wisconsin flat out scouted better and found guys like that consistently. So it’s not ALL development. A lot of these guys could actually play and were simply not well received by the recruiting services.
That’s relevant because CKW was able to take some low rated offensive line players and win with them prior to the 16’ season. We probably had a top three offensive line in the conference for a few years. But those guys were not highly rated. Will Matte, Collin Rahrig, Dan Feeney, Jason Spriggs, Jake Reed, and Dimitric camiel were all guys who got into rookie mini camps, but they weren’t highly touted and Matte/Rahrig weren’t even Wilson recruits. My opinion has been that the offensive line played will due to a combination of coaching (Frey and Wilson), but also due to the fact that all of the guys I mentioned were good players and were simply overlooked. I think that it’s more a combination of development and finding under the radar guys than it is about pure development. Throw into the mix Ralston Evans, Bernard Taylor, Peyton Eckert, David Kaminski, Jacob Bailey, and Wes Rogers and those are all guys who weren’t super highly rated, but all contributed better than the guys we have now. But having known Evans and Bailey before college, I can tel you that they were already good players and just didn’t have the ratings because they were from Indiana.
What that means is that Wilson was able to work with guys who were low rated but were very good players. It was a combination of development and the guys already having some talent. I get the impression that after the 12’ class the guys we brought in on the line were rated higher but less talented. I thought ralston Evans was better than Brandon Knight (and sacks allowed supports that claim). I got the impression that a guy who only had one Big Ten offer like Spriggs was better than Cronk. And I got the impression that Dan Feeney was better than LittleJohn or Stepniak (though LittleJohn and Stepniak had more BCS offers). So I 100% agree that coaches should be held accountable to develope the players they have, but I do get the impression that if the players don’t have a certain baseline of talent, it’s hard to work with that, and that a lot of times we underestimate how good a guy is because of a bogus rating. But do you fault CKW, because at the time he was bringing in some guys with “good ratings” and every fan out there assumed those guys would come in and play better. CKW is human too, and he probably had a bias towards improving ratings to make the Alumni happy (that’s the impression that I got), but he sacrificed getting good players to err on the side of having higher rated players.
As a player, this was obvious to me and some other guys on the team at the time. My last season was in 15’ and I got the impression that we’d be screwed in a couple of years. The summer of 15’ multiple guys who were older questioned why some of these players were even offered scholarships, but fans seemed to not care because the “ratings were improving.” But 99.9% of people would’ve erred on the side of improving ratings like CKW did and caved into the pressure of pleasing the fan base. What we sacrificed was getting under the radar guys who may have been better and hungrier than some of the higher rated players, and I got the impression that around 17’ it would begin to show, and that happened. I have a feeling that CTA will hopefully not cave into the “this guy is highly rated” bias.
Well that is depressing because we aren’t winning with low or high (for IU) rated classes.
By the way, the frustration towards the program in general, is not a slight to the players. I know how it is to hear that (I’m a military guy and understand the backhanded compliment) but I do admire anyone that commits to the IU program and perseveres and graduates with a degree. When CKW came in a great amount of pride came with him to the fan base. At least it did me.
I agree that CKW brought pride, and I do not take anything on the board as a slight. We had to walk around campus for 4 years and hear about how bad we are so there’s little that can get former players down haha. That’s why in 15’ we were dead set on at least getting to a bowl.
And the frustration from fans is justified. Had a been a non athlete student, I would’ve been disappointed, and if I were a long time fan like you I’d sure in hell be disappointed, and as a former player I am disappointed. I think that it’s justifiable to expect better outcomes with the money and resources being poured in. When players don’t know what another team is doing, yet we distribute iPads that have film of every game to players, donors and those who contribute to IU should be a little dissapointed, so I do not feel slighted at all.
See, this is why you’re not in charge of anything. Put off the inevitable? You’re suggesting that we make mass changes because we came up four points short of beating Maryland. Or blew a lead at MSU. Or lost in OT vs Michigan. Win just one of those and we’re in another bowl. You don’t make gigantic changes based on something like that. It’s stupid. You come across as stupid by posting this nonsense. It’s a stupid idea. It’s not going to happen, so you just need to stop talking about. I mean you can talk about whatever you want, but there is zero chance of him being fired anytime within the next couple of years, so it’s literally pointless and wasting your own time. You really need to get over it. No one is getting fired for going 5-7 in their first year, especially with all the close losses.
And its doubly annoying that you act like you’re some hugely important person involved in IU athletics and act like you single-handedly get things done. You’re a fan. You sit behind a computer and talk about sports, like the rest of us. The staff isn’t getting fired. Let it go. You seriously need to move on unless you just want to be a miserable troll for the next couple of years.
The fact that this thread is eight pages long is incredibly embarrassing. Says a lot for the intelligence level of a lot of our fans.
Nah, I think it's an indictment of basically just one guy, and a bunch of other people calling him out for his ridiculous narrative.
Like ewerzfan before him, I think he enjoys being a contrarian, and craves the attention. I suppose we're (myself included) enabling that to some extent.
I've never said I'm hugely important or implied that I am. I don't know where you get that from other than you're getting flustered by the debate. It's a message board. Some people want to discuss other things besides just pumping sunshine and talking rainbows and unicorns.
And there's a lot better than 0% chance he's gone in the next two years. I heard the same thing about Crean as recent as last year.
LOL. I guess I missed the part where Crean was fired after his third year. How did he manage to get himself rehired for six more ? Allen isn't going anywhere for the next 4 years unless it's his choice or some ethics issue pops up. If you have inside info on that, I'm sure the AD and BOT would be interested in knowing that. Your acceptable timeline for success and that of rational objective people are vastly different. If I were you I wouldn't count so heavily on others being as out of touch with reality.
We shall see. I heard the same thing from 80%+ of this sunshine board 12 months ago regarding Crean. Some people never learn.
Yes , and aren’t you the guy that was telling the world Billy Donovan was in Bloomington.
