yeah bad name. that said too there's a significant amount of data out there that indicates that more police is how neighborhoods reduce crime, not less police. this is going to be a tough issue that will take considerable research and vetting, but at least now it's got a light shone on it.I've heard of a movement to do just that sort of thing. Unfortunately, somebody named it "Defund the Police".
Wisconsin
- Thread starter glmiu11
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I can't say one way or another how "successful" they've been, but BPD has brought in social worker types to assist in some of the concerns the cops have dealing with the homeless and those with addiction issues. It may or may not have anything to do with the fact that the BPD Chief is married to the judge that oversees the local drug court.
That’s great. Because those really shouldn’t be policing issues. Are there that many homeless people in Bloomington?
I've heard of a movement to do just that sort of thing. Unfortunately, somebody named it "Defund the Police".
Its piss poor marketing. Defund the police sounds so stupid.
No way should you send a psychologist or social worker into a combat zone to be a first line “negotiator” with people who are unstable. Wait to get them in a controlled environment to use their skill set.
We ask police to be more accountable, and that needs to happen (maybe better pay will attract top notch talent) but when are citizens going to start pulling their weight?
Not sure where you got the idea anyone was advocating sending social workers into combat zones. Let me know where you got that straw man and I'll argue against it. Meantime maybe engage with the conversation that is actually happening. Asking the regular beat cop to be a jack-of-all-trades and waste resources on situations where they aren't necessary is asking for police forces stretched too thin and bad interactions.
Agreed. Unfortunately In the worst of areas the days of the beat cop are largely over. Could be part of the problem.
Defund the police = stop f’ing with people over dumb chit that doesn’t matter. Start with the 5k mountain bikes they barely know how to ride
Yeah in the meantime a 29 year old cop in Saint Louis was just pronounced dead. Black cop by the way. He must have been “fing with people over dumb chit that doesn’t matter” when he was shot in the head
Yes, there’s a pretty big homeless problem in Bloomington. A couple of years ago there were many issues around Kirkwood and People’s Park, lots of overdoses, etc. Now it seems the main concentration is at Seminary Park. There is a shelter close by.
BLM activists argue that, if someone is experiencing a mental health crisis, and if there is no emergent threat to themselves or other people, mental health professionals may be more adept and capable responders. Furthermore, if more funds were diverted to help treat and support those with mental health issues, there could be better outcomes.
I’m not against funding mental health and community programs but to do so at the expense of the police funding is nonsense.
Folks act like this is so logical.....until THEY have to go into these crime infested, dangerous areas to deal with issues. The fact is that we COULD send mental health support on these calls if the areas they were responding to were not so damn dangerous.
They may be fully equipped to diffuse a person who is no danger to themselves....but how are they going to defend themselves from the other people in the neighborhood who don’t want them there for the color of their skin?
I’m not against funding mental health and community programs but to do so at the expense of the police funding is nonsense.
Folks act like this is so logical.....until THEY have to go into these crime infested, dangerous areas to deal with issues. The fact is that we COULD send mental health support on these calls if the areas they were responding to were not so damn dangerous.
They may be fully equipped to diffuse a person who is no danger to themselves....but how are they going to defend themselves from the other people in the neighborhood who don’t want them there for the color of their skin?
And the tanks and military weapons. I’d be happy with better salaries, better training, and better screening before the hiring.
If the Bloomington PD would just leave these homeless people alone, they would thrive. It’s the pigs fault that the homeless have to turn to drugs to deal with brutal cops.
I think Mayor Hamilton may even have a tent down there to sleep so he can show his solidarity against the evil police force.
Well as I’ve followed the news today and just heard a 29 year old black officer just died at Barnes hospital from a shot to the head if I were a cop I’d walk off the job. Not worth it. Guy serving the city, same age as Blake, yet no priors, no warrants, no bullshit, just doing his job. Dead.
That’s all good and well, maybe in a parallel universe where nobody has military grade assault rifles.
Have you seen some of the hardware brought to the protests?
That’s terrible obviously, and you would be hard pressed to find a single person that thinks otherwise.
The problem is that it’s being drowned out. The crime has to be addressed, aggressively, or the work to eradicate racism will suffer. They’re connected; whether we want them to be or not. If it doesn’t subside we are going to end up with four more years of trump.
Some interesting training stats. In Japan officer training takes 2 years (1.5 with a college degree). The first year is "physical fitness and character building".
In Britain training can be 2 years with a college degree or 3 years without. Germany, Sweden, Finland, and Norway are all similar.
The US, Canada, and France all have about 1/2 year programs.
The physical training in Japan includes a specific martial art that all officers have to be proficient in. They also must learn the Japanese tea ceremony. We could probably shave off that week.
Britain has 3 paths. A 3 year apprenticeship, a 4 year general degree with 2 years training, a 3 year law enforcement degree of which year 2 as an apprentice.
In Britain training can be 2 years with a college degree or 3 years without. Germany, Sweden, Finland, and Norway are all similar.
The US, Canada, and France all have about 1/2 year programs.
The physical training in Japan includes a specific martial art that all officers have to be proficient in. They also must learn the Japanese tea ceremony. We could probably shave off that week.
Britain has 3 paths. A 3 year apprenticeship, a 4 year general degree with 2 years training, a 3 year law enforcement degree of which year 2 as an apprentice.
This cop in Stl that was killed yesterday. 29. Married. 3 kids. Cops are getting shot like crazy here in Stl. So if this entirely undesirable job has elevated qualifications I think that departments are going to have a shortage of cops. Too much crime. Too dangerous. I think these cops are cops because their options are limited.
So I think training is the key not more education.
Most of those have education in the form of police academies and apprenticeships. Think about what we require of police, they are part psychiatrist, part social worker, part law enforcement, part mechanic, part locksmith, part marksman. We have to wonder if 26 weeks is enough. I like Britain's idea of either training or apprenticeship.
One thing that concerns me is that most people who work out in the world know how training is. A person gets trained and shows up to work and the first thing someone says is, "you may have been trained in X, but that will never work. Here's the shortcuts you need to know". I'd be amazed if police are any different.
Yes that’s happened recently with the addition of Trumpsters. Hadn’t seen any assault weapons in the months before that. Not saying there weren’t any, but second amendment doesn’t always work the same for Black Americans. Still don’t think a tank is the answer to that problem.
Better pay similar to being a teacher could also help. Need to make the job more enticing for smart people with options. Need to change the perception of these honorable professions.
That’s truly a tragic story.
How much of the difference is cultural? Japanese people are quire respectful compared to the ordinary American. That divergence expands dramatically if you look at low-income areas.
Thank you for posting some actual discussion points & potential solutions or improvements. Someone should share with with LeBron...
Smart
smart people wouldn’t police areas of Stl. It’s not smart. It’s too dangerous. That’s the issue. Between the randoms that don’t value life and the gangs that control so much it’s not worth the risk. That’s why a ged is the qualification with a driver license. Ultimate catch 22
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I think that goes to the danger. There are just going to be fewer police shootings in Japan because of culture. But then if Japan, Sweden, and Norway are safer for police, why do they get more training? One would think the more dangerous country would require more training.
It is tragic. And there are no civil lawsuits. Worker’s compensation pays under $5,000. These families are screwed. The only redeeming thing is backstoppers.
It’s tethered. There’s no way to discuss better policing in a vacuum. Crime reduction and personal responsibility has to go hand and hand with that discussion. Again smart people aren’t going to police Stl, Detroit, Baltimore, Oakland, parts of Chicago. They’d be stupid to. Go be a teacher. A fireman.
Thanks for continuing that discussion instead of just posting some worthless snark.
Agree that increased qualifications have to be followed with increased pay and I'd echo Marvin's thought that it needs to be followed with narrowed responsibilities. We can't ask all officers to do all of those things perfectly and maintain quality interactions. More specialization in the force, spreading some responsibilities to other departments, and more officers with more community engagement seem like good laboratories to be working in.
How would you compare it to people joining the Marine Corps during the twin wars of Iraq and Afghanistan? I do not recall the Marines missing quota, so people must have been signing up.
I don’t know Marv. I can tell you in Stl the department last time I looked was short 152 cops. They have a hard time filling slots.
Right, I just think there are more factors.
But I will note there is a traditional understanding that if 1 cannot hire enough workers for X then they offer Y or Z. The market seems to be telling St Louis they have to pay more for police.
Being a teacher or Fireman in a bad area isn't much better. There's a reason places like CPS or SLPS have to pay more than their suburban counterparts and are still unable to attract the best talent.
If by cultural you mean the country isn't awash in guns, you may have a point.
If no one wants to consider addressing guns as a huge part of the problem, then there will never be any serious approach to reducing the mayhem.
It's a tough problem because a lot of the police in these areas have lost the trust of their communities. Departments have bad internal cultures and bad cops can't get weeded out because of police unions and their actions being covered up.
In these neighborhoods there's obviously lack of opportunity, broken families, drugs, etc, and a culture of not trusting/hating the police built up over years. Redlining by the banks means people can't get loans to own houses and families never had equity to fund education.
You also have social media amplifying/radicalizing both sides, with lots of fake memes/misleading videos/other stuff being spread.
Fixing all that without non-college educated white people going "WHY ARE THEY GIVING THESE BLACK PEOPLE HELP WHEN I DON'T GET ANYTHING" and voting for the other side is a pretty tall order.
In these neighborhoods there's obviously lack of opportunity, broken families, drugs, etc, and a culture of not trusting/hating the police built up over years. Redlining by the banks means people can't get loans to own houses and families never had equity to fund education.
You also have social media amplifying/radicalizing both sides, with lots of fake memes/misleading videos/other stuff being spread.
Fixing all that without non-college educated white people going "WHY ARE THEY GIVING THESE BLACK PEOPLE HELP WHEN I DON'T GET ANYTHING" and voting for the other side is a pretty tall order.
How much pay would you require to work as a police officer under the rules you all would like to place on them?
I would personally laugh at you for anything less than 6 figures to go out and be the publics punching bag and the scapegoat for a community that is practically devoid of any personal responsibility.
Again, people join the military. Ranger suggested his rules of engagement has more rules than it appeared the Kenosha Police Department had. I doubt he made 6 figures.
I’m not sure police and military are the same. What percentage of people who join the service do so thinking it’s a career choice as opposed to something along the way to a career? Cops it’s a lifelong choice mentality
