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The thing that I find interesting is that Ranger didn't say the guards weren't acting with some racial bias....all he said is there is more that isn't known than what is known from the video. Clearly a gated community is gated with guards to keep people out. If his name was on the list is it safe to assume he would have been let in and no incident?

Ranger is trying to say we don't know if this is racially motivated or not. To assume it is because BM is black and the guards weren't, while that may be true, it isn't supported by the facts. Why that is met with disdain from some says a lot.
 
That you’d take a video started in mid-incident filmed by a guy with BPD and not factor anything else in speaks volumes about where this conversation Is headed.

Where did I do that? I'm sticking with I don't know what happened here.

on edit: I don’t even know what you’re trying to say other than “I refuse to believe this is anything other than security guards weaponizing their whiteness”.

Where did I say that? And you're whining that I am missing what YOU'RE trying to say. Get real, dude. If you'd just have stuck with

Ok let’s take a breath here.
and "I don't know" what happened here, you'd have done okay. That's not where you stopped. You don't seek to understand anything more about the situation. You stop with 'BMar was great with the Bears, but he's crazy' and that's all the conversation you seek to have. You whine that shooter has made up his mind about the situation, but how is that different from what you've done.

Me...I don't know what happened, so I haven't done anything other than express empathy and wonder about the details that led to what happened...and wonder why you are lashing out at shooter for doing what you yourself are doing. And somehow you turn that into me refusing "to believe this is anything other than security guards weaponizing their whiteness"? WTF?
 
The thing that I find interesting is that Ranger didn't say the guards weren't acting with some racial bias....all he said is there is more that isn't known than what is known from the video. Clearly a gated community is gated with guards to keep people out. If his name was on the list is it safe to assume he would have been let in and no incident?

Ranger is trying to say we don't know if this is racially motivated or not. To assume it is because BM is black and the guards weren't, while that may be true, it isn't supported by the facts. Why that is met with disdain from some says a lot.

I appreciate your sentiment on this and I generally agree with you about the gated communities. I do wonder why the police were called and why he was called "suspicious", but I also understand he may have been acting suspicious and a call to the police may have been merited. I do wonder what led Marshall to feel like he did, but I do understand that he could have misread what was happening. It's a short clip, but I don't get the sense that anyone in it is acting in anyway insincerely or irrationally from their own perspective.

I don't get the sense that Ranger is stopping with what you describe tho. That's not met with disdain from me. That's met with "why are you decrying in others the thing that you are doing yourself."
 
I like the reaction of the cop. He's seemingly saying
I don't know why these asswipes called me. I get a call, I show up. Then it's a Karen, a Kyle, or an INRanger27. Some asswipe.
 
You seem to be an abject failure at most everything.

That's just simply false. Ranger seems far from an abject failure at most things. I think he's wrong in how he's responded to that post in this case, but this response and his "I hope you're better at science than critical thinking" potshot are sort of beneath both of you guys.
 
That's just simply false. Ranger seems far from an abject failure at most things. I think he's wrong in how he's responded to that post in this case, but this response and his "I hope you're better at science than critical thinking" potshot are sort of beneath both of you guys.
Point taken. Sometimes I don't respond well to internet tough guys tossing out insults for no reason, and am too quick to respond in kind. Better to ignore, or to make him the first on my ignore list. Even Lucy hasn't gone there.
 
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I appreciate your sentiment on this and I generally agree with you about the gated communities. I do wonder why the police were called and why he was called "suspicious", but I also understand he may have been acting suspicious and a call to the police may have been merited. I do wonder what led Marshall to feel like he did, but I do understand that he could have misread what was happening. It's a short clip, but I don't get the sense that anyone in it is acting in anyway insincerely or irrationally from their own perspective.

I don't get the sense that Ranger is stopping with what you describe tho. That's not met with disdain from me. That's met with "why are you decrying in others the thing that you are doing yourself."
Brandon Marshall is also mentally ill and it’s tragic. He was an amazing talent but we have no idea how fast he went from 0-60 in this video. Like all of these altercations we only get it from the climax, we almost never get the crescendo.

He could very well be right and he may be a victim of racism here. The problem is that we don’t know if that’s true and assuming it’s true is highly problematic especially given the fragility of our society right now. That’s all I was ever trying to say. Just as in the Booker case, all the usual suspects on this board assumed everything he said was true even though the story made no sense. Here we are again, never learning from our mistakes. If it started and stopped on this internet chatboard then it’s harmless. But we know it’s happening at scale and it’s causing the country to implode.
 
This.

You complain about laziness and wanting instant gratification? Have you met many Boomers? Making a PB&J was too hard so they created a market demand for Uncrustables. Freaking Uncrustables.

960135085
They found a way to take fake food and make it even faker.
 
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Brandon Marshall is also mentally ill and it’s tragic. He was an amazing talent but we have no idea how fast he went from 0-60 in this video. Like all of these altercations we only get it from the climax, we almost never get the crescendo.

He could very well be right and he may be a victim of racism here. The problem is that we don’t know if that’s true and assuming it’s true is highly problematic especially given the fragility of our society right now. That’s all I was ever trying to say. Just as in the Booker case, all the usual suspects on this board assumed everything he said was true even though the story made no sense. Here we are again, never learning from our mistakes. If it started and stopped on this internet chatboard then it’s harmless. But we know it’s happening at scale and it’s causing the country to implode.

I hear you. And I agree with a lot of what you say. I sometimes think what you say comes across as going further than maybe what you intend.

mcmurtry says that he is extra cynical about people, but I feel like I'm right there with him in many ways. I don't take what anyone says about a situation as gospel, whether they be Brandon Marshall or security guards at a wealthy gated community. I think the one thing we can likely agree on is that there a lot of details we would need to know before having a clear idea of what happened there.
 
You're a really reasonable guy... Do you really think that people are going to be more upset at isolated BLM protestors haranguing diners than they are at Trump basically turning the WH into the scene of a week-long circle-jerking of praise and back-patting? Hey, I've exacerbated racial strife and basically been responsible for thousands of needless deaths that other countries somehow managed to avoid- but you need to re-elect me because BLM protestors yell at people trying to eat?

I think people may need to stop and think why all of this is happening in "Trump's America", and then seriously think about if you think re-electing that idiot is going to suddenly make all this turmoil go away? I see an election where Trump's only chance is to somehow win a few battleground states and steal enough EVs to deprive the candidate who wins by 5 Million plus votes of victory.

I just don't see the same patience from the majority of voters occurring in 2020 that ensued in 2016 when a minority of voters basically thwarted the will of the majority, because of 70,000 votes in 3 states. I think if people feel that Trump "stole" this election then violent protest will be much more of a factor than it has been up to this point. He's the least popular POTUS in history.

People on the right always claim to be the majority, but somehow the GOP has managed to secure the popular vote exactly one time in this Century. As well as at any point in the last 32 yrs.

The EC may technically "elect" the POTUS. However, unless it's combined with a popular vote victory (which the Dems somehow always manage to achieve) it really amounts to government by the minority and really doesn't accurately reflect the wishes of the voting public. I think if that occurs in 2020, people who thought they were voting for "law and order" may be in for a rude shock.
Except that yelling at diners isn’t all they’re doing. You’re being disingenuous again...
 
Apparently, this is a vid of the guy who shot and killed two protesters. He’s the one in the red, white, and blue shorts who punches the girl near the end of the video.

 
The family that called the police on this fine, young man are racists and they all did it simply because of the color of his skin!l

oh, wait....what? It was his own family that called the police?
Hmmm....I still think it was a racially motivated phone call.
 
Of course. It’s about escalation of force techniques. If verbal warnings are ignored, and the perp must be arrested, the taser must be used. If the taser is ineffective, the next non-lethal approach has to be undertaken if the perp is not presenting as a lethal threat. If that’s clubs, so be it. It shouldn’t take shots in back, which my guess would be were fired accidentally due to bad trigger discipline, to take down a 170lb guy.

You think using clubs is “good optics?”

Good luck with rationalizing that.
The guy was not some kind-hearted citizen simply breaking up a fight. His own family called the cops on him for being at a gathering when he had no contact orders already on him.

You take a guy to the ground. You taser him. He gets up and walks to his car to open the door and ignores police commands. WTF???
And people are defending that?

Saw the exact same thing happen with a white perp and, guess what? He was also just as dumb.

Are people really this naive? Play stupid games....win stupid prizes.
 
Apparently, this is a vid of the guy who shot and killed two protesters. He’s the one in the red, white, and blue shorts who punches the girl near the end of the video.


he seems like a yuge POS, much like Jacob Blake

 
You think using clubs is “good optics?”

Good luck with rationalizing that.
The guy was not some kind-hearted citizen simply breaking up a fight. His own family called the cops on him for being at a gathering when he had no contact orders already on him.

You take a guy to the ground. You taser him. He gets up and walks to his car to open the door and ignores police commands. WTF???
And people are defending that?

Saw the exact same thing happen with a white perp and, guess what? He was also just as dumb.

Are people really this naive? Play stupid games....win stupid prizes.

A couple nights later, shots are fired. Police respond. A kid with a gun strapped to him walks past, police say he constitutes no threat. At least one person yells, "he shot someone". Let us compare threats, how long would it take this kid to ready his gun and fire? Is that amount of time considerably longer than it would have taken Blake?

Now it might be the police had no idea shots were fired. I have not seen that, though they knew there were injured people on the street ahead. So they would have been unable to hear the rounds going off and whomever called the injured people in must not have mentioned they were shot. It seems unlikely. I would think any officer that heard any of the shots fired would have called it out and anyone calling in the injuries would have mentioned a shooting. And if either of those happened, why was Rittenhouse adjudged so much less a threat than Blake?
 
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A couple nights later, shots are fired. Police respond. A kid with a gun strapped to him walks past, police say he constitutes no threat. At least one person yells, "he shot someone". Let us compare threats, how long would it take this kid to ready his gun and fire? Is that amount of time considerably longer than it would have taken Blake?

Now it might be the police had no idea shots were fired. I have not seen that, though they knew there were injured people on the street ahead. So they would have been unable to hear the rounds going off and whomever called the injured people in must not have mentioned they were shot. It seems unlikely. I would think any officer that heard any of the shots fired would have called it out and anyone calling in the injuries would have mentioned a shooting. And if either of those happened, why was Rittenhouse adjudged so much less a threat than Blake?
Everyone knows that a black guy walking towards his car with his three inside, with nothing in his hands, is much more dangerous than a white kid walking around a riot brandishing his 2nd amendment rights. The first deserved to get shot at 7 times in the back...the second deserved to be allowed to drive home and get arrested later.
 
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You take a guy to the ground. You taser him. He gets up and walks to his car to open the door and ignores police commands. WTF???

This is the part I have the biggest problem with. It seems to happen over and over in these videos. The cops can't subdue a suspect and it leads to deadly force.

You can say don't resist, but it happens and the police need to be able to better deal with it.
 
Two more cops shot in Saint Louis last night. One in the head now in critical condition. 29 yrs old. That makes 8 cops here shot since June. A bit of perspective on the anxiety cops likely walk around with in doing their job. combine the life-threatening nature of the job in today's environ with very low qualifications to get the gig, minimal psych evals, fitness tests that are barely enforced, training that goes stale, and it's easy to imagine the problems we have with cops.
 
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Everyone knows that a black guy walking towards his car with his three inside, with nothing in his hands, is much more dangerous than a white kid walking around a riot brandishing his 2nd amendment rights. The first deserved to get shot at 7 times in the back...the second deserved to be allowed to drive home and get arrested later.
So incredibly disingenuous. Maybe I missed some nuance?
 
It's a bad situation all around, but this guy wasn't some hero, regardless of what CNN attempts to spin. Apparently police attempted to taser him and it did not work.

Things aren't great for Blake:
  • Guy had a decent record, including domestic abuse/violence
  • Police were called for abuse/violence
  • He previously resisted arrest and was charged for this
  • He directly disobeyed orders, which doesn't help the situation
  • Making fast/quick movements is never ideal
https://heavy.com/news/2020/08/jacob-blake/

blake3.jpg


His Facebook cover photo:

jakeblake.png


He'd previously been arrested and found with a handgun.

Its not clear how this particular example will turn out, but I think there is a definite disconnect in our society about the use of lethal force. I have listened to a couple friends talking about the Brooks case in Atlanta commenting that by running he “had it coming”. An entirely different way of looking at it is that a fleeing DUI may just get away. Similar comments to your “he’s not a hero” above were made about Floyd saying “he wasn’t a good guy”. There is a level of cold heartedness that is almost unimaginable in that comment. Are we to remain silent until the police kill a “good guy”?
 
The family that called the police on this fine, young man are racists and they all did it simply because of the color of his skin!l

oh, wait....what? It was his own family that called the police?
Hmmm....I still think it was a racially motivated phone call.

Has it been established that Blake was the person they called the police on? I've read witness statements claiming otherwise, but I don't really know...
 
Its not clear how this particular example will turn out, but I think there is a definite disconnect in our society about the use of lethal force. I have listened to a couple friends talking about the Brooks case in Atlanta commenting that by running he “had it coming”. An entirely different way of looking at it is that a fleeing DUI may just get away. Similar comments to your “he’s not a hero” above were made about Floyd saying “he wasn’t a good guy”. There is a level of cold heartedness that is almost unimaginable in that comment. Are we to remain silent until the police kill a “good guy”?


The report states at about 6am the victim was woken up by Jacob Blake.

Blake was standing over her saying, 'I want my sh*t.' As the victim laid on her back, Blake, 'suddenly and without warning, reached his hand between her legs, penetrated her vaginally with a finger, pull it out and sniffed it, and said, ''Smells like you've been with other men.''

The officer noted in the report the victim had a very difficult time telling him this and cried as she told how the defendant (Blake) assaulted her and then the defendant immediately left the bedroom.

She told the police being penetrated digitally caused her pain and humiliation and was done without consent.
 
Two more cops shot in Saint Louis last night. One in the head now in critical condition. 29 yrs old. That makes 8 cops here shot since June. A bit of perspective on the anxiety cops likely walk around with in doing their job. combine the life-threatening nature of the job in today's environ with very low qualifications to get the gig, minimal psych evals, fitness tests that are barely enforced, training that goes stale, and it's easy to imagine the problems we have with cops.
Not only do the police do nothing about that, they actively oppose any questioning of what they do or calls for them to do better. As bad as the videos are of police brutality, I'm more struck by the responses from organized police officials in the light of day after the fact. The police are a problem and "we" aren't really doing anything about it. Instead, we're effectively bolstering and enabling the problematic misconduct when we instead focus on the accused criminals and the protesters. Much of that is a deflection.

And yes, I understand the real-world political impact vis a vis the "law and order" calls following the protests.

As to that broader point, though, isn't the statement coming out of the Milwaukee Bucks a generally reasonable one?

"When we take the court and represent Milwaukee and Wisconsin, we are expected to play at a high level, give maximum effort and hold each other accountable. We hold each other to that standard, and in this moment we are demanding the same from lawmakers and law enforcement. We are calling for justice for Jacob Blake and demand for the officers to be held accountable. For this to occur, it is imperative for the Wisconsin state legislature to reconvene after months of inaction and take up meaningful measures to address issues of police accountability, brutality and criminal justice reform. We encourage all citizens to educate themselves, take peaceful and responsible action and remember to vote on Nov. 3."

Law enforcement isn't going to do anything different. Law enforcement will deny responsibility and accountability, deflect, and be indifferent to actual outcomes. Heck, they might not even be aware that there is anything to be aware of. It all might be very confusing to law enforcement.
 
Not only do the police do nothing about that, they actively oppose any questioning of what they do or calls for them to do better. As bad as the videos are of police brutality, I'm more struck by the responses from organized police officials in the light of day after the fact. The police are a problem and "we" aren't really doing anything about it. Instead, we're effectively bolstering and enabling the problematic misconduct when we instead focus on the accused criminals and the protesters. Much of that is a deflection.

And yes, I understand the real-world political impact vis a vis the "law and order" calls following the protests.

As to that broader point, though, isn't the statement coming out of the Milwaukee Bucks a generally reasonable one?



Law enforcement isn't going to do anything different. Law enforcement will deny responsibility and accountability, deflect, and be indifferent to actual outcomes. Heck, they might not even be aware that there is anything to be aware of. It all might be very confusing to law enforcement.
i don't much care about what the milwaukee bucks have to say about anything to be perfectly honest, and to the extent that i read it no i don't think what they say is reasonable. they're comparing a game where people make 25 million a year for a few hours work to a job where you make forty grand and can get shot in the head. as to the actual content calling for justice for jacob blake and the officers to be held accountable like all the noise from the media and celebrities they're premature. they don't know if justice will be had yet or not. they don't know if accountability for the cops will be had or not. that said i'm certain they have already adjudicated their feelings and made up their minds long before any investigation or god forbid evidence proffered in a venue set aside for justice. i suspect when an nba player is accused of a crime they'd respond differently, calling for patience to allow "the system" to do it's job.

as for the remainder of your post re faults of law enforcement and changes needed i'm with you. and i know unions are a major obstacle. what i am not informed about at all is the economics of local policing. i think there needs to be a major upgrade in the quality of our cops - and a massive infrastructure renovation to accomplish same, but i have no idea if something like that is feasible. i don't know if we have cops with low qualifications by necessity or choice.
 
i don't much care about what the milwaukee bucks have to say about anything to be perfectly honest, and to the extent that i read it no i don't think what they say is reasonable. they're comparing a game where people make 25 million a year for a few hours work to a job where you make forty grand and can get shot in the head. as to the actual content calling for justice for jacob blake and the officers to be held accountable like all the noise from the media and celebrities they're premature. they don't know if justice will be had yet or not. they don't know if accountability for the cops will be had or not. that said i'm certain they have already adjudicated their feelings and made up their minds long before any investigation or god forbid evidence proffered in a venue set aside for justice. i suspect when an nba player is accused of a crime they'd respond differently, calling for patience to allow "the system" to do it's job.

as for the remainder of your post re faults of law enforcement and changes needed i'm with you. and i know unions are a major obstacle. what i am not informed about at all is the economics of local policing. i think there needs to be a major upgrade in the quality of our cops - and a massive infrastructure renovation to accomplish same, but i have no idea if something like that is feasible. i don't know if we have cops with low qualifications by necessity or choice.
I think the Bucks have an opportunity to make a difference that most people don't. I think they recognize that opportunity and view it as a responsibility. Plenty of people around me feel that same responsibility and don't have the influence to make a difference. Those same peers are pushing anyone and everyone to take on that responsibility. The Bucks' actions are in line with that viewpoint and, per the Bucks' statement, the direction they propose is in line with your second paragraph, imo. I think it's unfair to tell the Bucks to shut up. Why should anyone shut up if they're offering up constructive political viewpoints?

Also, it doesn't matter if the police job is hard. So stipulated. I've said the same thing over and over. But that's not the end of the story. Of course it's a tough job. That's why so many revere it. But it comes with a responsibility (also the tough part). Many of us, maybe especially the police, have a thankless job. Today, the police don't view it that way. They demand thanks and attack anyone who questions what they provide. It's entirely fair to acknowledge what a tough job they have and also to demand accountability and responsibility from that job.

Also (x2), I've said the same things here about not knowing exactly what happened with Jacob Blake. Maybe it's from my legal training, but I'm typically not comfortable weighing in on a topic when I'm not that well-informed. But parsing Jacob Blake's scenario and diminishing the outcry that follows negates the reasonable rejection of endless examples of police misconduct that continue to go unaddressed. When a handful of officers face accountability (and frankly, that's an outlier scenario), that's not fixing the problem. That just gets chalked up to "a few bad apples" and nothing further changes. Some of the specifics of the outcry might be misguided and misinformed. I get that. But the outcry writ large is pretty much spot on, in my estimation. Knocking down the outcry when it's right at a high level even if they miss the mark on some of the specifics seems unproductive to me (maybe it doesn't matter, but it will likely come across the same as "all lives matter").

Briefly as to the specifics of Jacob Blake, we don't know a lot. Maybe if the facts were "just right" (from a police perspective), you might think, yeah, it's a hard job and tough to know how I would have handled it. E.g., if Blake were the reason they were there, he was actively and physically challenging them, he was tased, the taser hit and even though activated properly Blake was unaffected and thus maybe under the influence of some powerful drug that made him a greater threat, he was crazy enough to ignore the weapons pointed at him and that in and of itself was pretty telling, he told the police he was going to his car to secure a weapon, he leaned into the car with the possible perception of doing just that, and they fired on him, maybe some people can think the "it's a tough job" line. But that's a whole lot of ifs and the police absolutely haven't earned the benefit of the doubt on assuming any of that. Most importantly, though, they still wouldn't have had to shoot him. There were other options available. That might mean they weren't horrible racists, but instead dangerous incompetents. But that's pretty much were we land even on a good day for the police in this case. Hardly the stuff to knock down the outcry over the well-known and obvious flaws of our criminal justice patterns that continue to go unremedied.
 
I think the Bucks have an opportunity to make a difference that most people don't. I think they recognize that opportunity and view it as a responsibility. Plenty of people around me feel that same responsibility and don't have the influence to make a difference. Those same peers are pushing anyone and everyone to take on that responsibility. The Bucks' actions are in line with that viewpoint and, per the Bucks' statement, the direction they propose is in line with your second paragraph, imo. I think it's unfair to tell the Bucks to shut up. Why should anyone shut up if they're offering up constructive political viewpoints?

Also, it doesn't matter if the police job is hard. So stipulated. I've said the same thing over and over. But that's not the end of the story. Of course it's a tough job. That's why so many revere it. But it comes with a responsibility (also the tough part). Many of us, maybe especially the police, have a thankless job. Today, the police don't view it that way. They demand thanks and attack anyone who questions what they provide. It's entirely fair to acknowledge what a tough job they have and also to demand accountability and responsibility from that job.

Also (x2), I've said the same things here about not knowing exactly what happened with Jacob Blake. Maybe it's from my legal training, but I'm typically not comfortable weighing in on a topic when I'm not that well-informed. But parsing Jacob Blake's scenario and diminishing the outcry that follows negates the reasonable rejection of endless examples of police misconduct that continue to go unaddressed. When a handful of officers face accountability (and frankly, that's an outlier scenario), that's not fixing the problem. That just gets chalked up to "a few bad apples" and nothing further changes. Some of the specifics of the outcry might be misguided and misinformed. I get that. But the outcry writ large is pretty much spot on, in my estimation. Knocking down the outcry when it's right at a high level even if they miss the mark on some of the specifics seems unproductive to me (maybe it doesn't matter, but it will likely come across the same as "all lives matter").

Briefly as to the specifics of Jacob Blake, we don't know a lot. Maybe if the facts were "just right" (from a police perspective), you might think, yeah, it's a hard job and tough to know how I would have handled it. E.g., if Blake were the reason they were there, he was actively and physically challenging them, he was tased, the taser hit and even though activated properly Blake was unaffected and thus maybe under the influence of some powerful drug that made him a greater threat, he was crazy enough to ignore the weapons pointed at him and that in and of itself was pretty telling, he told the police he was going to his car to secure a weapon, he leaned into the car with the possible perception of doing just that, and they fired on him, maybe some people can think the "it's a tough job" line. But that's a whole lot of ifs and the police absolutely haven't earned the benefit of the doubt on assuming any of that. Most importantly, though, they still wouldn't have had to shoot him. There were other options available. That might mean they weren't horrible racists, but instead dangerous incompetents. But that's pretty much were we land even on a good day for the police in this case. Hardly the stuff to knock down the outcry of the well-known and obvious flaws of our criminal justice patterns that continue to go unremedied.
Good post. the issue i still have with the bucks is that rush to judgment thwarts the systems we have in place for equity and redress. it's prejudicial and disrupts due process. i just wish there was some way to temper same until the whole story comes out and the system has its chance to operate.

as for your dangerous incompetents. i have extensive experience with cops. it pains me to say this but some are the smartest kindest most professional folks i've ever met; others are dangerous incompetents. sadly too many are dangerous incompetents, and that brings us back to why the standards for cops aren't higher. i know unions play a role, but they aren't dispositive. is it economics? is it just the way things have always been? is it if the qualifications were higher they wouldn't be able to fill a force? i don't know.
 
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as for your dangerous incompetents. i have extensive experience with cops. it pains me to say this but some are the smartest kindest most professional folks i've ever met; others are dangerous incompetents. sadly too many are dangerous incompetents, and that brings us back to why the standards for cops aren't higher. i know unions play a role, but they aren't dispositive. is it economics? is it just the way things have always been? is it if the qualifications were higher they wouldn't be able to fill a force? i don't know.
I think that's a really good line of thought and there sure aren't easy answers. If there are good answers, I sure don't have them.

Some musings, though. Maybe sorta how I think teachers ought to be paid more, maybe the same with the police? Make it more lucrative to drive more talent and competition? Always hard to find money, though. And it doesn't address what I think is an accelerating problem: the authoritarian impulses that are growing across the country and especially stoked by Trump and his followers. Law enforcement surely has always had tended toward something of a political point of view (based on my earlier interactions with some FOP functions, convos there sure aren't for everybody), but I think the authoritarian stuff is sorta different today. I do think it poses a threat to us. Back to the money, though, and here's where I'm definitely not well-informed, but I still sorta suspect that our national priorities have grown out of whack. I'd be curious to know how police incomes line up today with how they were paid on a relative scale 60 years ago. And even if those #s aren't meaningfully different, maybe there's still something in our set of priorities that contributes to a change. What should we make of CEO to average worker pay ratios and how those have changed over time? Isn't that a symptom of something larger afoot about what we value and what should drive people and who has worth, etc.? That's a different conversation for sure, but our sense of community has most definitely changed over a generation.
 
I think that's a really good line of thought and there sure aren't easy answers. If there are good answers, I sure don't have them.

Some musings, though. Maybe sorta how I think teachers ought to be paid more, maybe the same with the police? Make it more lucrative to drive more talent and competition? Always hard to find money, though. And it doesn't address what I think is an accelerating problem: the authoritarian impulses that are growing across the country and especially stoked by Trump and his followers. Law enforcement surely has always had tended toward something of a political point of view (based on my earlier interactions with some FOP functions, convos there sure aren't for everybody), but I think the authoritarian stuff is sorta different today. I do think it poses a threat to us. Back to the money, though, and here's where I'm definitely not well-informed, but I still sorta suspect that our national priorities have grown out of whack. I'd be curious to know how police incomes line up today with how they were paid on a relative scale 60 years ago. And even if those #s aren't meaningfully different, maybe there's still something in our set of priorities that contributes to a change. What should we make of CEO to average worker pay ratios and how those have changed over time? Isn't that a symptom of something larger afoot about what we value and what should drive people and who has worth, etc.? That's a different conversation for sure, but our sense of community has most definitely changed over a generation.
agreed. as for pay i can only speak to the saint louis area. there are many munis that pay very well, but those spots are highly coveted. i can say that the qualifications are much higher and you rarely hear of incidents. that said they're also areas that have little crime to begin with so it might be apples to oranges.

in the city where crime is so bad the inducement is early vesting and the opp to augment income with secondary. but the qualifications are rock bottom and there's constant trouble. long story short i agree that what needs to be revisited are our values - and perhaps a reallocation of resources to upgrade police qualifications in areas needed.
 
agreed. as for pay i can only speak to the saint louis area. there are many munis that pay very well, but those spots are highly coveted. i can say that the qualifications are much higher and you rarely hear of incidents. that said they're also areas that have little crime to begin with so it might be apples to oranges.

in the city where crime is so bad the inducement is early vesting and the opp to augment income with secondary. but the qualifications are rock bottom and there's constant trouble. long story short i agree that what needs to be revisited are our values - and perhaps a reallocation of resources to upgrade police qualifications in areas needed.

I'd add that in addition to increasing pay to up the qualifications and draw better talent we better define what jobs police should do to put them in a position to be more successful. Whether it be homeless issues, welfare checks, etc., there are some issues that require different training than a regular patrol car.
 
I'd add that in addition to increasing pay to up the qualifications and draw better talent we better define what jobs police should do to put them in a position to be more successful. Whether it be homeless issues, welfare checks, etc., there are some issues that require different training than a regular patrol car.
for sure. and that might be a rethinking of what qualifications should look like. a rethinking of policing.
 
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