What does IU need to become an elite program again?

[bsmitty08]

I am not a Crean fan obviously but I think his coaching isn't as bad as his roster management/Recruiting. I think in order for CTC to get IU back to being elite is he is going to have to recruit elite classes every year. No doubt he has landed some studs but the balance of each class is poor and the makeup of each class is poor. he isn't in the IZZO, Ryan category where he can win without elite talent. So I think the answer is recruit better..

Some things I don't understand with his recruiting..

-Why is it necessary to tie up 13 schollies every year? Especially when a few schollies are to major major projects.This leads to unbalanced classes.
-If his system calls for a stretch 4 then you have to recruit them. Hartman looks like he fits the mold and possibly MH but we need to land the TJ Leaf type for this position. Wing player but is 6'9 so he can guard an opposing teams 4.
-We are in desperate need for a big man that can play right away...yet we use two over sign's on 6'7 guys.
-Rumbles of Yogi going pro after this season...yet we haven't signed a true PG since we signed Yogi.

Like I said I am not a fan of his and he does so strange things in the course of the games that make you say "WTF" is he doing but I think his biggest issues are his recruiting(consistently well at every position) and his roster management/balance.

This is not a bash Crean session, I just think odds are he stays and if we are going to get really good things have to change in these areas.

 

[McNutt76]

Personally, I think Tom Crean's biggest strength is his

ability to recruit. He has landed a lot of big time players the past few years. He also seems to be good at developing his players.

His weaknesses are his inability to prepare for opponents and his inability to make adjustments during a game. When the Hoosiers played Syracuse in the NCAA Tournament a couple of years ago, he knew they would be using a zone on defense. Despite knowing it, his team appeared to be poorly prepared to attack the zone.

Bob Knight used to say the last five minutes of the first half and first five minutes of the second half were crucial. Unfortunately, the opposing coaches make halftime adjustments and Crean doesn't seem to know how to adapt to them in the second half. Consequently, we seem to frequently lose leads or fall way behind during the opening minutes of the second half.

I personally don't think IU will become an elite program again until it lands Brad Stevens. Once that happen--if it does--we will become a national power once again.

 

[bsmitty08]

Re: Personally, I think Tom Crean's biggest strength is his


I disagree..yes he lands a one in each class in most years but doesn't land multiple elite guys in each class like I think is needed. 2012 class was a bust, 2013 class on paper was good but hasn't panned out with Davis hurt, Fischer leavening, Stan regressing and then not adding a replacement for Vonleh in 14 class. 14 class had 2 quality guards and then you have some projects and some role guys.

 

[iubud]

Elite players and coaching staff

Teams aren't going to play 13 players, so I am okay with giving a scholarship to a project that has a good chance to develop or a kid that you can be useful in practice. I am okay taking that scholarship back if they don't work hard to get better. I would love to know what April does in practice. Crean says he doesn't work hard enough. So what are we getting in exchange for his free schooling?

We all know what Crean started with. It looked like he had a good handle on the program with the 2011 and 2012 teams. Our success and having players leave early and others deciding to go elsewhere hurt our experience level. Crean was starting over, but at least he had better recruits. Crean probably expected Cody to leave, but I have wondered if Oladipo took him by surprise. Oladipo would have made a big difference last year. Yogi, Oladipo, and Vonleh would have made a good team with Sheehey and Williams. Last year was the result of a lot of bad timing, bad planning, little chemistry, and lack of a leader the players would follow.

The roster will look a lot better next year OG and Juwan sound solid with OG sounding like the bigger impact. Getting Devin back with Hanner and Holt will be a boost. Finally, we will have a roster that can push each other. This should be Crean's second chance to coach a team with talent, experience, and expectations. I know many don't want to give him another year, but that is what he will get.

My question is how well will he be prepared for losing Yogi, Williams (early), Hanner, and possibly JBJ? He can send a good message by locking down a killer 2016 class. Short of that might signal the repetition of a cycle that would be unacceptable and show that a change is needed.

An early exit in the tournament next year with the team I expect and a weak class for 2016 will be more than enough reason to make a change. I fear Glass would need more proof.

 

[bsmitty08]

Re: Elite players and coaching staff


If we lose Yogi we will not be better next year.

 

[IUfanINsandiego]

Under Crean? SUPERSTARS and 5-STARS!!

He wasn't too bad with Dwayne Wade.

2012-13 - He was Sweet 16 with 5 future pros, 2 of which are currently in the NBA (Zeller and Oladipo).

2013-14 - But he failed to make the NCAA or NIT tournaments with a McD's AA Lottery pick(Vonleh), D-Leaguer(Sheehey), another McD's AA and future NBA player(Yogi).

2014-15 - 2 McD AA's (Yogi and JBJ), 3 Future NBA players (including Troy)...jury still out.

So, imo CTC needs at least one more bonafide superstar on his roster, in addition to what we have seen these past two years, on a yearly basis to return IU to National prominence. Anything less than that and we are at best a bubble team. Unless we bring in a bonafide big man for next year, I do not see the improvement that others think we will make from this year to next. Adding Morgan and O.G to rotate in with Emmitt, Max, and Collin is not an improvement. In fact, it may even break continuity and hurt overall team chemistry by having too many guys at the same position. Not to mention other undersized guys (for their position) next year with HMP and Devin Davis hopefully back in the mix.

 

[bsmitty08]

Re: Under Crean? SUPERSTARS and 5-STARS!!

Agree...just doesn't seem like we need two more 6'7 guys to add to Hartman, Davis, Williams, hoetzel.

 

[iubud]

Did not know he was leaving

Yes, that would change the team. I didn't know he was iwanting to play in Europe.

 

[IUfanINsandiego]

Re: Under Crean? SUPERSTARS and 5-STARS!!

Le'ts just be honest...there are probably 3 players that will be leaving and Crean will try to bring in a center.

It is what it is.

 

[bsmitty08]

Re: Did not know he was leaving


Read article on front page and ITRL and you will see what I am talking about. Stock is rising on NBA scouts boards.

 

[kkott]

I agree with your analysis, but I think Crean's biggest flaw, and this is complete armchair psychoanalysis is his ego. In my business I try and recognize what I don't do well and hire to augment my abilities and address my weaknesses with others' skills. I think he has a big ego and basically hires yes men, or runs off those who shine or challenge him.

As you point out, there's alot that he does well. If he could just follow his own preaching about self-improvement, swallow his pride and hire talented people and had the confidence to listen to them and let them "do their thing" maybe we could address the talent, defensive, recruiting and coaching deficiencies that exist. If we want to get to elite status under Crean, that's what I think it's going to take.

 

[IU Scott]

If I was a coach


in college I would try to only use 12 scholarships a year and try to have them as balanced as you can and I would really try to have 3 players in each class. this way with only 12 players on your roster you can have room for a 5th year senior transfer or have opening sin case there comes a great player becomes available because of a coaching change. I would try to have most of the players be 3 or 4 year players with a sprinkling of 5 star players thrown in.

 

[HOOSIER JOE]

Why don't you start following another team?

Every time that we lose, here you are with your negative ramblings. If IU makes you so miserable, just start following another team. We won't miss you here...
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[bsmitty08]

Re: Why don't you start following another team?


Actually this is a good conversation, sorry it bothers you.

 

[iubhounds]

A Marquette alum/fan told me

Last fall when the national media were writing articles about the problems of IU, a Marquette fan/alum told me that he thought Crean was great about "fixing" a team but was an average coach once his system was built. Meaning he was a great hire to fix the problem that IU had at that time but once all of those problems were fixed and his system was built (2-3 years), he was average after that.

Transfers, injuries and early departures to the NBA are normal and part of college basketball. All teams have two or even three of those situations happening like IU has. Last spring in an interview Crean said it was normal in today's college basketball to expect to rebuild a team every year with 5-6 new players annually.

Arizona, Duke, UNC, seem to be able to rebuild and win ... no mention of KY because they replace their departures like a D league team. While Wisconsin and Virginia win with an older lineup.

I don't see a return to the "elite" status ... NCAA's tourney every year, a Sweet 16 the majority of time and a Final 4 every few years ... until a coaching change is made.

I don't know who that would be but all I know IMO Crean has taken IU as far as he can.

 

[iubhounds]

He had a legit and honest question

Based on the responses here, it looks like a good civil discussion. Ironically last night Bill Walton asked the same question on the air while announcing the UCLA win over #11 Utah.

Forget if you like or dislike Walton, this isn't what it's about....just that he asked the same thing about a school that has better results than IU has in the past 15 years.

 

[cheyennemtnman]

Re: Under Crean? SUPERSTARS and 5-STARS!!

Word is ...no one wants to leave at this point
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[IU Scott]

Hopefully we can get Bryant

I see 3 guys leaving after this year

 

[IUfanINsandiego]

Re: Under Crean? SUPERSTARS and 5-STARS!!

They won't have a choice now will they? We all know how that conversation will go.

 

[SRIV94]

Personally, I think that ship sailed.

We needed Matta for that, but Herbert was too afraid of the political ramifications of letting Davis walk two years earlier than he did. Conley/Oden wouldn't have gone to OSU, and EJ never would have jilted ILL because he wouldn't have committed to ILL in the first place.

We won't be elite again. We can be good, maybe even very good at times. But the days of us being an elite program are over.

 

[iubhounds]

So how is the oversigning solved?

People may think I am crazy but what very little Priller and April have played ... I think both players could be decent B1G players their Jr and Sr years. In today's world players, fans and some coaches don't want to wait that long for a player to be a starter or a major factor.

I can see how no one wants to leave.

So lets say in Apr/May of this year, no one still wants to leave? What then? Who and how do at least two of them get axed to make room for the two new recruits signed for next year.

This post was edited on 1/30 4:34 PM by iubhounds

 

[IU Scott]

You mean Priller


because we could use Pritchard this year

 

[bsmitty08]

Re: Personally, I think that ship sailed.

That's the attitude I dot understand. IU has all the tools to be elite. Located in hotbed talent, great facilities, tradition, conference, campus, fan base.

 

[IU Scott]

I agree but


today there are a lot more programs around the country that has the same facilities and other advantages that we have.so there are a lot more competition than there was in the past. the other day while watching Nebraska play DD said that they have the best basketball facilities in the country so programs like that with no basketball history has gained ground on us

 

[Moops]

It's assinine, really.

And I tend to like SRIV.

We get all the talent we can handle when we get a new coach ... and a trajectory straight to the top. Then that coach proves inept and recruiting falters.

Just need the right coach.

We should have snagged Matta when the opportunity was open. Now we need to snag Stevens ... not necessarily now ... but when the opportunity ripens.

 

[Moops]

*scoff*

Nebraska?

gained ground ... maybe a wee bit being in the B1G instead of B12 helps them be better than they were.

but they are still a 4th tier team. Nothing to look over our shoulder about, IMHO.

 

[bsmitty08]

Re: *scoff*


Well the same Elite programs have remained elite....duke, UK, Kansas, UNC, Louisville, etc..

 

[IU Scott]

i am not comparing them to us


but showing even lower tier teams has as good if not better facilities than we have so it makes it harder for us to get back to being elite because we use to have a big advantage over other programs. Also most elite players care about 3 things when deciding on a school, 1) the coach,2) the facilities, 3) exposure being on tv and a lot of teams today have as much of these things than what IU can offer.

 

[The Vid]

That's silly. The right coach could send IU right back into the mix

in two to three years.

 

[Moops]

Keep your head in the sand.

UK had to play around with their coaches and were pretty inept. UK just lost a first round NIT game 2 years ago. They have hardly been up their forever. They just don't given mediocre coaches long contracts.

Kansas - coaching change where they replaced a HOF coach with a better coach.

UNC - struggled with the wrong coach and got that Kansas HOF coach to pick them back up.

Duke - HOF coach throughout with no coaching issues except coach with a bad back one year.

Louisville - struggle under Crum and only returned after hring HOF coach.



It doesn't take much to realize Crean is not a HOF coach and even he could get IU a #1 seed. Those other schools don't keep a struggling coach this long. Or turn their program over to an unproven assistant in the first place. The guy who replaced Dean Smith had a lot of tenure.

MD had been an asst for what 2 years?


Think again. You need to get off the statins if you think any of those programs didn't struggle through a coaching change.

 

[IU Scott]

they all have one thing in common


they all have HOF coaches. Like I said in another post the kids today cares about 3 things.
1) coaches who can get them to the NBA
2) Great facilities
3) programs that can get them exposure

 

[SRIV94]

Do you trust we'll get one?

And that's really the answer to the question. The people who have made the decisions of late have been very wrong.

 

[bsmitty08]

Re: they all have one thing in common

So basically IU has 2 of the 3. Moops is right the elite programs didn't allow the program to be down long.
This post was edited on 1/30 3:24 PM by bsmitty08

 

[IU Scott]

Hiring Davis was the major mistake


I understand giving him the interim year but he should have never been given the second year. the second mistake was not firing Davis the year that we lost in the NIT to Vandy because we could have gotten Matta or Pitino.

 

[SRIV94]

Why, thank you. I think.

Anyway--the correct answer is that the people making the decisions about who to hire and who to not hire have to want IU to be elite. And if that means getting rid of a good coach to get a better one (even if the good coach is, well, good), then so be it.

I look at the Chicago Cubs as a case study. They had a first-year manager who was 73-89 in 2014 (for a team that was 66-96 the year before). While not fabulous numbers, there was clear and obvious improvement. And he was fired--not because he did a bad job, but because a much better manager suddenly became available and it was in the Cubs' best interest to explore any avenue to hire him. Whether it's going to mean a postseason appearance in 2015 is anybody's guess--I'd guess probably not since the division is a meatgrinder, but I wouldn't rule it out.

You can argue whether the parallels between MLB and NCAA hoops are apt. But the answer for all major sports (college or professional) is pretty clear--if you want to be really good, it starts right at the top.

 

[bsmitty08]

Re: Why, thank you. I think.


Well said SRIV94

 

[SRIV94]

Actually, we would've needed to fire Davis the year before to get Matta.

He joined OSU in 2004-05 and immediately paid dividends--being the first team to beat Illinois (in March) and stopping them from having the chance to remove our name from the history books as the last unbeaten (of course, UK's going to end up doing that this year). Had we struck in 2003-04 (when we became the first IU team to not even make a postseason since 1976-77), we could've had Matta.

 

[The Vid]

Not entirely, but I suppose it's possible*

.

 

[IU Scott]

My bad


I thought it was that same year where we lost to Vandy but I am pretty sure that was the year that Pitino came back to college which would have been a great hire.

 

[SRIV94]

I think you're right about the timeline with regard to Pitino.

And I think I remember seeing on these boards that Pitino was a Greenspan target and there was interest, but I don't remember whether we swung and missed (sorry--still have baseball on the brain) or Louisville just made a better deal. (Or both.)