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Ukraine made a big mistake when it let Russia invade it.

CoH, you and I not agreeing about NATO and how to deal with Putin is no big deal.

However, what concerns me is our political parties and our political leaders don't agree.

Contrast with Senators Richard Lugar and Sam Nunn whose ability to work together to resolve differences as noted in this essay helped us to provide a common front during the Cold War. A common front which in my view no longer exists and gives a virtual dictator such as Putin a decisive edge.

The link above in part has this to say..

The senators’ collaboration extended into many other areas, when they had extensive off-the-record luncheon seminars on current foreign affairs in Nunn’s hideaway Senate office. Experts, including senior State Department officials and academics joined the two for frank, in-depth exploration of current issues. They also sponsored exchanges between the Congress and the new Russian parliament and co-chaired the Aspen Strategy Group, which met annually on foreign and national security policy.

They did not always hold common positions. Lugar favored NATO expansion to the East, while Nunn opposed it. So, they jointly organized a dinner discussion of the issue with leading proponents and opponents. Their differences always were tempered by their friendship and mutual respect.
This is a good point. In large part I think it stems from our fundamental dislike and lack of respect of political opponents instead of merely disagreeing with them. I think this trend started with George W. Bush and has only gotten worse with Obama, Biden, and Trump.

I don’t see a fix on the horizon. The Democrats with Harris having a lead for 2028 can’t fix things, nor can Newsom. I think Haley could mend things, but she can never be nominated. In the final analysis, we are the blame. Too many enjoy resisting more than supporting.
 
One part of the negotiations will be the timing of sanctions coming down. We need to hold onto them as long as possible. It will slow Russian rearmament and give Ukraine a head start. If Russia demands all the ground she has seized and Ukraine out of UN, sanctions stay on Russia forever. Negotiate from there.
 
This is a good point. In large part I think it stems from our fundamental dislike and lack of respect of political opponents instead of merely disagreeing with them. I think this trend started with George W. Bush and has only gotten worse with Obama, Biden, and Trump.

I don’t see a fix on the horizon. The Democrats with Harris having a lead for 2028 can’t fix things, nor can Newsom. I think Haley could mend things, but she can never be nominated. In the final analysis, we are the blame. Too many enjoy resisting more than supporting.
CoH, in responding to my post about politicians not finding common ground anymore, you agreed and added the following to which I firmly concur...

In large part I think it stems from our fundamental dislike and lack of respect of political opponents instead of merely disagreeing with them.

Not sure, however, I agree with you when you write...

I think this trend started with George W. Bush and has only gotten worse with Obama, Biden, and Trump.

Without naming names, my blame goes to political handlers and the extreme bases of both parties which call the final outcomes in all too many elections by devoutly showing up in the primary elections. This all adds up to what the great Rush Limbaugh once noted, "The only thing you find in the middle road [of politics] are dead possums".

Thus, politicians willing to compromise and work with the other party end up as dead possums on primary day.
 
To me it all comes down to this, forget fault and forget what might have happened if so and so was President or not, Russia invaded Ukraine, unprovoked, and we backed the Ukrainians with weapons and money. Our political leadership at the time made a decision to back them. It would be a gross waste of our treasury if after all that investment we just gave Russia what they wanted all along.

As far as the often quoted "both sides have lost a bunch of people and we need to end it..." One of those sides my opinion is kind of "good". Each individual death is a human tragedy in its own way but from a geopolitical perspective, good. F--- Russia. Every time they punch that wall and break a finger expecting to get through to only have it plastered over to break yet another finger? Awesome. You should have never punched the wall and you could stop punching the wall at any time you desire.

I think reality on the ground is that Ukraine will lose some territory but the way Trump is approaching this is not what a master negotiator would do and it certainly isn't someone approaching this from a position of strength. Russia should be the ones looking for an offramp. Whether we should have been in this is immaterial to decision making now. Russia has to make some major concessions or I am more than happy to continue the funding of killing your people. If the Ukrainians feel it is better to lose people than give up, then that is their choice as well.

The deal that got aired in public makes everything we did a waste. Not one single concession. It was garbage and was indefensibile which is why this turned into an argument about would've, should've instead of focusing in on the horrible nature of blaming a country for having the audacity to get invaded.
 
To me it all comes down to this, forget fault and forget what might have happened if so and so was President or not, Russia invaded Ukraine, unprovoked, and we backed the Ukrainians with weapons and money. Our political leadership at the time made a decision to back them. It would be a gross waste of our treasury if after all that investment we just gave Russia what they wanted all along.

As far as the often quoted "both sides have lost a bunch of people and we need to end it..." One of those sides my opinion is kind of "good". Each individual death is a human tragedy in its own way but from a geopolitical perspective, good. F--- Russia. Every time they punch that wall and break a finger expecting to get through to only have it plastered over to break yet another finger? Awesome. You should have never punched the wall and you could stop punching the wall at any time you desire.

I think reality on the ground is that Ukraine will lose some territory but the way Trump is approaching this is not what a master negotiator would do and it certainly isn't someone approaching this from a position of strength. Russia should be the ones looking for an offramp. Whether we should have been in this is immaterial to decision making now. Russia has to make some major concessions or I am more than happy to continue the funding of killing your people. If the Ukrainians feel it is better to lose people than give up, then that is their choice as well.

The deal that got aired in public makes everything we did a waste. Not one single concession. It was garbage and was indefensibile which is why this turned into an argument about would've, should've instead of focusing in on the horrible nature of blaming a country for having the audacity to get invaded.
The President has the advantage that comes from not being able to take anything he (or his SecDef) says seriously. He can say “we didn’t actually mean any of that, let’s start negotiations.”
 
Exactly. It's insane to make concessions before negotiations even begin. When that happens, the other side starts from a position of strength.

Putin will now demand more, and whatever additional benefits he receives will just be gravy.

Trump: The Art of the Deal my ass. Although I guess it's a great deal if Vlad's your daddy.
You guys are so right. You’ve all closed much bigger deals than Trump. You certainly know better than him.

Why don’t we wait and see what happens.

Idiots. All of you.
 
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To me it all comes down to this, forget fault and forget what might have happened if so and so was President or not, Russia invaded Ukraine, unprovoked, and we backed the Ukrainians with weapons and money. Our political leadership at the time made a decision to back them. It would be a gross waste of our treasury if after all that investment we just gave Russia what they wanted all along.

As far as the often quoted "both sides have lost a bunch of people and we need to end it..." One of those sides my opinion is kind of "good". Each individual death is a human tragedy in its own way but from a geopolitical perspective, good. F--- Russia. Every time they punch that wall and break a finger expecting to get through to only have it plastered over to break yet another finger? Awesome. You should have never punched the wall and you could stop punching the wall at any time you desire.

I think reality on the ground is that Ukraine will lose some territory but the way Trump is approaching this is not what a master negotiator would do and it certainly isn't someone approaching this from a position of strength. Russia should be the ones looking for an offramp. Whether we should have been in this is immaterial to decision making now. Russia has to make some major concessions or I am more than happy to continue the funding of killing your people. If the Ukrainians feel it is better to lose people than give up, then that is their choice as well.

The deal that got aired in public makes everything we did a waste. Not one single concession. It was garbage and was indefensibile which is why this turned into an argument about would've, should've instead of focusing in on the horrible nature of blaming a country for having the audacity to get invaded.
Throwing good money after bad is, well, not smart. Sunk cost fallacy. I take it you don’t handle your own investments? I’m guessing not or you’d likely be homeless and without internet.
 
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