Ukraine made a big mistake when it let Russia invade it.

[UTFO]

"It was not a very good war to go into."

- POTUS

I don't like what I'm hearing from Trump and Hegseth on this. NATO a non-starter? Jesus, he's arguing for the Russians! Talk about painting yourself into a corner. Why on Earth would the US take that off the table? Even if we know it's unlikely, you still keep it on the table!

The US is shedding its old skin and growing something completely new and geopolitically catastrophic.

 

[kurt cloverdales]

"It was not a very good war to go into."

- POTUS

I don't like what I'm hearing from Trump and Hegseth on this. NATO a non-starter? Jesus, he's arguing for the Russians! Talk about painting yourself into a corner. Why on Earth would the US take that off the table? Even if we know it's unlikely, you still keep it on the table!

The US is shedding its old skin and growing something completely new and geopolitically catastrophic.

are you in a round about way saying having a complete dumbass for a leader is bad.

 

[HurryingHoosiers]

Definitely no collusion with the Russians. Nothing to see here folks.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

"It was not a very good war to go into."

- POTUS

I don't like what I'm hearing from Trump and Hegseth on this. NATO a non-starter? Jesus, he's arguing for the Russians! Talk about painting yourself into a corner. Why on Earth would the US take that off the table? Even if we know it's unlikely, you still keep it on the table!

The US is shedding its old skin and growing something completely new and geopolitically catastrophic.

Right. The Biden NATO position only cost both sides 500,000 casualties, the total destruction of important infrastructure, the flattening of cities and millions of refugees fleeing to safety, food and shelter. By all means, let’s keep NATO on the table until nobody is left to give a damn.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

"It was not a very good war to go into."

- POTUS

I don't like what I'm hearing from Trump and Hegseth on this. NATO a non-starter? Jesus, he's arguing for the Russians! Talk about painting yourself into a corner. Why on Earth would the US take that off the table? Even if we know it's unlikely, you still keep it on the table!

The US is shedding its old skin and growing something completely new and geopolitically catastrophic.

You shouldn't have run a loser candidate. We tried to tell you.

 

[HurryingHoosiers]

Right. The Biden NATO position only cost both sides 500,000 casualties, the total destruction of important infrastructure, the flattening of cities and millions of refugees fleeing to safety, food and shelter. By all means, let’s keep NATO on the table until nobody is left to give a damn.

Yea but it was NATO's fault that Russian invaded?

Has Putin paid you for your opinion?

 

[td75]

It's unfortunately for the good of the world that we get in bed with the Russians....Plainly stated, the alternative is Nuke city, no thanks!!

 

[BCCHoosier]

Right. The Biden NATO position only cost both sides 500,000 casualties, the total destruction of important infrastructure, the flattening of cities and millions of refugees fleeing to safety, food and shelter. By all means, let’s keep NATO on the table until nobody is left to give a damn.

Answer the question. How was Ukraine at fault at the start? Some of you guys will bend at the knee no matter the issue. It's both sickening and alarming.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Right. The Biden NATO position only cost both sides 500,000 casualties, the total destruction of important infrastructure, the flattening of cities and millions of refugees fleeing to safety, food and shelter. By all means, let’s keep NATO on the table until nobody is left to give a damn.

The idea that Ukraine might, years from now, join the NATO defensive alliance is not why Putin invaded Ukraine. Putin has made no secret of the fact that he wants to restore the USSR’s territory and he wanted Ukraine’s resources. The fault for the war falls entirely on Russia.

 

[HurryingHoosiers]

The idea that Ukraine might, years from now, join the NATO defensive alliance is not why Putin invaded Ukraine. Putin has made no secret of the fact that he wants to restore the USSR’s territory and he wanted Ukraine’s resources. The fault for the war falls entirely on Russia.

Even if Putin did invade Ukraine over the possibility of joining NATO, I wouldnt put the blame on the country that was invaded.

It's kind of like blaming the nerd for not coughing up his lunch money and thus it was his fault the bully punched him in the face. Misplaced blame either way.

But yes, you are right that NATO had nothing to do with it.

 

[Palmbeachhoosier]

The idea that Ukraine might, years from now, join the NATO defensive alliance is not why Putin invaded Ukraine. Putin has made no secret of the fact that he wants to restore the USSR’s territory and he wanted Ukraine’s resources. The fault for the war falls entirely on Russia.

And a formerly weak president. Putin did not attack when Trump was in office before. Putin only acquired land under Bush, Obama and Biden. Why is that?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

The idea that Ukraine might, years from now, join the NATO defensive alliance is not why Putin invaded Ukraine. Putin has made no secret of the fact that he wants to restore the USSR’s territory and he wanted Ukraine’s resources. The fault for the war falls entirely on Russia.

C’mon man! Quit risking your credibility with posts like this.

I’m not talking about who started the war. I’m talking about the unquestioned need to end it.

But if you want to continue the discussion about how it started, there is no doubt Putin began it. There is also no doubt that Obama’s Crimea timidity and Biden’s dementia-induced mental weakness created the opportunity Putin exploited.

 

[HurryingHoosiers]

C’mon man! Quit risking your credibility with posts like this.

I’m not talking about who started the war. I’m talking about the unquestioned need to end it.

But if you want to continue the discussion about how it started, there is no doubt Putin began it. There is also no doubt that Obama’s Crimea timidity and Biden’s dementia-induced mental weakness created the opportunity Putin exploited.

You got some evidence behind that conspiracy theory that his invasion had anything to do with Biden?

or just because Trump told you so it must be true.

You don't seem to really care about Trump continuing to be Putin's lackey. Why not address that instead of bringing up Biden? Biden isn't in charge so making unfounded accusations is nothing but a look over there to distract from Trump.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

You got some evidence behind that conspiracy theory that his invasion had anything to do with Biden?

or just because Trump told you so it must be true.

You don't seem to really care about Trump continuing to be Putin's lackey. Why not address that instead of bringing up Biden? Biden isn't in charge any more so unfounded accusations don't really mean much.

Let’s start with Putin’s massive Ukrainian border military build up which began within weeks of Biden’s inauguration.

 

[HurryingHoosiers]

Let’s start with Putin’s massive Ukrainian border military build up which began within weeks of Biden’s inauguration.

And what action did biden do that caused that? You have to make a connection to place blame.

Biden has been more supportive of Ukraine and tougher against Russia than Trump, who as often as not, sides with Russia and has wanted to reduce/stop aid to Ukraine. So the claim that Biden was weak as being the reason is a major stretch given Trump's stance has been much weaker.

And how is your baseless accusation even relevant to this thread other than trying to change the subject? Are you comfortable with Trump being a Russian puppet and that's why you can't address the actual topic at hand?

 

[mrhighlife]

Let’s start with Putin’s massive Ukrainian border military build up which began within weeks of Biden’s inauguration.

If Trump is so intimidating then why hasn't Russia pulled out of Ukraine since he became president. They haven't even hinted at that.

 

[HurryingHoosiers]

If Trump is so intimidating then why hasn't Russia pulled out of Ukraine since he became president. They haven't even hinted at that.

Trump could stop the war in 24 hours....so why hasn't he?

Maybe Trump wants to bulldoze Ukraine so he can build a Trump Theme Park and golf course.

Maybe Trump is just full of.... and yet has millions of people believing everything he says like it is the gospel.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

C’mon man! Quit risking your credibility with posts like this.

I’m not talking about who started the war. I’m talking about the unquestioned need to end it.

But if you want to continue the discussion about how it started, there is no doubt Putin began it. There is also no doubt that Obama’s Crimea timidity and Biden’s dementia-induced mental weakness created the opportunity Putin exploited.

My response was 100 percent responsive to your post. By the way, the Biden administration position on Ukraine and NATO was the same as the Trump administration's position - eventual NATO membership. In fact, NATO membership agreed that Ukraine would eventually become a member in 2008 and developed a plan for it in 2009. It did not have a definitive final date for membership. Ukraine has had an increasingly strong relationship with NATO since shortly after the fall of the Soviet Union. They want to be aligned with Western Europe and the US rather than Russia. Why wouldn't they?

All we have are our opinions and speculation about whether Russia would have invaded Ukraine if Trump had won in 2020. No one KNOWS.

 

[Ohio Guy]

And a formerly weak president. Putin did not attack when Trump was in office before. Putin only acquired land under Bush, Obama and Biden. Why is that?

Seems like Trump is teeing things up for that streak to be broken during his second term.

 

[Bowlmania]

If Trump is so intimidating then why hasn't Russia pulled out of Ukraine since he became president. They haven't even hinted at that.

Because they first wanted concessions from Trump, and they just got them. Yesterday, after Trump's call with Putin, Trump/Hegseth announced that: 1) Ukraine will have to cede territory; 2) NATO membership for Ukraine isn't happening; and 3) Ukraine's security will be contingent on European support, not US.

And all of this was before negotiations even began!

Also, to add insult to injury, Trump refused to say whether he considered Ukraine an equal partner in the negotiations!

Putin now has pretty much everything he wanted. Thanks, Don. And Putin will invade again at some point knowing there will be no NATO or US backing of Ukraine.

 

[HurryingHoosiers]

Because they first wanted concessions from Trump, and they just got them. Yesterday, after Trump's call with Putin, Trump/Hegseth announced that: 1) Ukraine will have to cede territory; 2) NATO membership for Ukraine isn't happening; and 3) Ukraine's security will be contingent on European support, not US.

And all of this was before negotiations even began!

Also, to add insult to injury, Trump refused to say whether he considered Ukraine an equal partner in the negotiations!

Putin now has pretty much everything he wanted. Thanks, Don. And Putin will invade again at some point knowing there will be no NATO or US backing of Ukraine.

And along the way, MAGA will be cheering it on.

 

[outside shooter]

The logical ending point of any deal is Ukraine giving up at least some land and not joining NATO.

But that is now the starting point for the negotiations on any deal and Ukraine will undoubtedly have to give up much more to the Putin-Trump alliance in order to achieve peace.

Pretty disgusting (though unsurprising) abandonment of principles.

 

[Bowlmania]

The logical ending point of any deal is Ukraine giving up at least some land and not joining NATO.

But that is now the starting point for the negotiations on any deal and Ukraine will undoubtedly have to give up much more to the Putin-Trump alliance in order to achieve peace.

Pretty disgusting (though unsurprising) abandonment of principles.

Exactly. It's insane to make concessions before negotiations even begin. When that happens, the other side starts from a position of strength.

Putin will now demand more, and whatever additional benefits he receives will just be gravy.

Trump: The Art of the Deal my ass. Although I guess it's a great deal if Vlad's your daddy.

 

[Bowlmania]

Once again, Trump is fvcking everything up. The level of incompetence (or is it malfeasance?) is astounding.

https://www.reuters.com/world/eu-warns-against-dirty-deal-ukraine-after-trump-putin-phone-call-2025-02-13/

 

[hoot1]

C’mon man! Quit risking your credibility with posts like this.

I’m not talking about who started the war. I’m talking about the unquestioned need to end it.

But if you want to continue the discussion about how it started, there is no doubt Putin began it. There is also no doubt that Obama’s Crimea timidity and Biden’s dementia-induced mental weakness created the opportunity Putin exploited.

CoH, we cannot undue what you consider mistakes made by Obama and Biden.

Seems to me what is important is what we do from this point on regarding Aloha's contention about Putin wanting to reassemble the Soviet Union. CoH, what say you about this?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

CoH, we cannot undue what you consider mistakes made by Obama and Biden.

Seems to me what is important is what we do from this point on regarding Aloha's contention about Putin wanting to reassemble the Soviet Union. CoH, what say you about this?

Don’t agree.

But if he invades the Baltics, we will have a severe NATO. Problem. Our European NATO partners can’t even defend themselves individually or collectively. I don’t think it will happen.

OTOH, I don’t think the can ever take over the “Stan” countries along the southern border.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Don’t agree.

But if he invades the Baltics, we will have a severe NATO. Problem. Our European NATO partners can’t even defend themselves individually or collectively. I don’t think it will happen.

OTOH, I don’t think the can ever take over the “Stan” countries along the southern border.

NATO, even without the US, is far more capable than you think and they're definitely more capable than Russia, as Russia has proven in its war on Ukraine. They need assistance from North Korea, NORTH KOREA, and that isn't working either.

I don't think Russia is capable of regaining all the USSR territories. I think Putin's plan was to do a little at a time. His plan hit a big snag in Ukraine.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

NATO is far more capable than you think and they're definitely more capable than Russia, as Russia has proven in its war on Ukraine. They need assistance from North Korea, NORTH KOREA, and that isn't working either.

I don't think Russia is capable of regaining all the USSR territories. I think Putin's plan was to do a little at a time. His plan hit a big snag in Ukraine.

I couldn't imagine how Russia is failing to take Ukraine and would walk through NATO, even without US. Especially now as we have seen in the main thread on the war, Russia is reverting back to horses.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I couldn't imagine how Russia is failing to take Ukraine and would walk through NATO, even without US. Especially now as we have seen in the main thread on the war, Russia is reverting back to horses.

They're also using donkeys and mules for transporting supplies. I know you know, but even though most think of the WWII German war machine fully mechanized, they heavily relied on horses too. They used nearly three million horses during the war.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

They're also using donkeys and mules for transporting supplies. I know you know, but even though most think of the WWII German war machine fully mechanized, they heavily relied on horses too. They used nearly three million horses during the war.

Band of Brothers when Webster stands and screams at the hoards of German POWs. It was something like "What were you thinking, going to war with horses. Meet GM, Meet Ford. What were you thinking"

I forget who said it, but someone early on in this war commented that Russia hadn't devoted nearly enough resources to logistics. They said that dictators love shiny toys to parade with but don't care so much about trucks and the boring things that actually win wars.

Holland's books on the war in the west go into all the work Germany did to make sure their uniforms were fancy, their guns looked impressive, etc. In '42 they finally had to start backing down from it. But they spent a lot of time and resources in that sort of appearance when they desperately needed numbers. Again, dictators like the shine.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

The logical ending point of any deal is Ukraine giving up at least some land and not joining NATO.

But that is now the starting point for the negotiations on any deal and Ukraine will undoubtedly have to give up much more to the Putin-Trump alliance in order to achieve peace.

Pretty disgusting (though unsurprising) abandonment of principles.

You are trying way too hard to find something to bash Trump about. We sure as hell do not want a corrupt vulnerable Ukraine in NATO. Not that long ago Ukraine elected a pro-Putin leader. Getting the Russian sympathizers out of Ukraine’s politics might be a very good move.

 

[HurryingHoosiers]

You are trying way too hard to find something to bash Trump about. We sure as hell do not want a corrupt vulnerable Ukraine in NATO. Not that long ago Ukraine elected a pro-Putin leader. Getting the Russian sympathizers out of Ukraine’s politics might be a very good move.

Getting the Russian sympathizers out of the White House may also be helpful.

 

[outside shooter]

We sure as hell do not want a corrupt vulnerable Ukraine in NATO.

You are being purposely DENSE.

I never said that I want Ukraine in NATO. In fact I said that, in any finalized peace agreement, Ukraine NOT being in NATO should be part of the deal. In other words, it's a concession that's welcomed as part of the negotiated deal.

But why on Earth make any unilateral concessions long BEFORE you start negotiating?

When you buy a car, do you start negotiations by offering full sticker price?