Top secret documents

[DANC]

There would be records of declassification and there are none and the documents would be stamped declassified and they're not. Every copy of those documents would have to be declassified everywhere they existed. No one has produced any of those to prove they were declassified. I don't know why you continue to repeat this Trump lie because it is a lie. They were not declassified.

So you'd rather not wait until the Special Counsel reports to judge?

You don't know what the documents were - neither does Aloha, although you both like to think you do. And you don't know what a lie is and what is not. You know what you've heard in the media.

Where's your outrage over Biden having classified docs? Your lack of outrage in that instance is proof you're just being partisan.

 

[DANC]

I am not defending Trump. Why the hell can’t you guys acknowledge Biden broke the law too. It’s black and white for them and Hillary. Sounds like you can pack off whatever you want.

Because the media doesn't tell them to be outraged about Biden.

Sure, he was caught red-handed, but, you know - he co-operated. So it's OK.

 

[stollcpa]

Then why are you stating falsely that he's being treated unfairly? Sounds like defending him to me.

Compared to how Clinton and Biden were treated.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

Compared to how Clinton and Biden were treated.

And it has been explained numerous times that they were treated the same up until Trump continued to refuse to cooperate after over a year of trying to get the documents back.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

it's as if you don't even try to make a factual argument any more- the timeline on your sequence of events is ridiculous. The NARA (not the DOJ or FBI) notified Team Trump via email that 24 boxes of official documents were missing in May 2021. They didn't even claim they were "classified" just that by law they were documents Trump should have returned upon leaving office. Team Trump didn't even get back to them until Dec 2021, and admitted they had "some boxes".

Then in Jan 2021 they returned 15 of the requested 24 boxes, and as the NARA began to inventory the boxes they discovered classified, top secret and compartmental documents mixed in to the boxes. Now had Trump declassified those documents they would have been marked DECLASSIFIED. Of course he never declassified them, which is why they weren't marked.

And nobody made that ridiculous claim at the time, because it was just a later strategy that the Trump team developed as a way to try and allow Trump to keep documents he (erroneously) thought belonged to him. Notice none of Trump's "lawyers" are willing to claim under oath that these documents were "declassified" because they know if they commit perjury permanent disbarment will be the least of their worries...

Even so, it still was March or so before NARA requested to notify the FBI so Trump had plenty of time to make things right and avoid all of this. So your claims about the raid are as fallacious and ignorant as most of your other posts. You're actually on here arguing over classified procedure with experts who have practical experience in the matter like Aloha and Bing based on the opinions of idiots which you somehow ascribe to. You even use the opinion of a Constitutional authority like McClanahan who argues that Trump can declassify and then completely ignore the fact that he points out that Biden can do the same based on the 2019 Executive order that establishes original classification authority.

And McClanahan also points out that while Trump had the authority to declassify documents, he still HAD to NOTIFY someone, especially people who had security clearance to view items like TSI. It might be different if the sole authority to view these documents rested with the POTUS, but that's not the case. Up until this point Biden is not claiming he declassified the ones in his possession, but you stubbornly cling to the notion he couldn't even though the very expert you've previously cited says the exact opposite.

Do you really not know this? It's the law...

"In 1978, Congress passed the Presidential Records Act (PRA), which states that any records created or received by the President as part of his constitutional, statutory, or ceremonial duties are the property of the United States government and will be managed by NARA at the end of the administration."

In paragraph 2, I think you meant 2022

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Compared to how Clinton and Biden were treated.

I literally just explained to you why that was incorrect, and your response is to basically digitally stick your fingers into your ears and say "NANANANA I CAN'T HEAR YOU."

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

No they won't. Did they ever find out who destroyed Hillary's Blackberries or ran the bleach-bit software?

Hillary's servers had classified docs on them that were SUBPOENA'd. It's a clear double standard and the FBI is the Gestapo wing of the Democrat Party.

She didn't cooperate fully, and I've never defended her for anything she did during her email scandal, because she didn't deserve defending.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I don't pretend anything. I don't know what he declassified and neither do you.

You're quick to judge Trump, but give Biden every benefit of the doubt, despite all the lying he and the Biden Crime Family has done. Why do you continue to be duped?

Yes, you have to be pretending to believe his lies, because there is zero evidence that anything he had was declassified. I'm 99.99999999 percent sure he's lying about that because it would be easy to prove that he did, and he hasn't. NO ONE has even attempted to prove it. His own lawyers don't claim they were declassified. He didn't declassify them, and I know you have to know that he didn't unless you don't have the experience with classified information you claim to have had - even if it's way old experience.

I'm not giving Biden even the slightest benefit of the doubt on his classified information issue. I can only comment about what is known about his case and what is known about Trump's case.

What the "Biden Crime Family" may have done isn't the subject here.

 

[stollcpa]

I literally just explained to you why that was incorrect, and your response is to basically digitally stick your fingers into your ears and say "NANANANA I CAN'T HEAR YOU."

You got Hickory cheering you on. 😂

 

[DANC]

She didn't cooperate fully, and I've never defended her for anything she did during her email scandal, because she didn't deserve defending.

No, but you didn't make it your life's work to make sure the world knew she broke the law, like you do with Trump.

You have a double standard - I don't know why you can't admit it.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

You got Hickory cheering you on. 😂

You got danc cheering you on

And sadly you can't address his point so you resort to throwing out insults.

 

[DANC]

Yes, you have to be pretending to believe his lies, because there is zero evidence that anything he had was declassified. I'm 99.99999999 percent sure he's lying about that because it would be easy to prove that he did, and he hasn't. NO ONE has even attempted to prove it. His own lawyers don't claim they were declassified. He didn't declassify them, and I know you have to know that he didn't unless you don't have the experience with classified information you claim to have had - even if it's way old experience.

I'm not Biden even the slightest benefit of the doubt on his classified information issue. I can only comment about what is known about his case and what is known about Trump's case.

What the "Biden Crime Family" may have done isn't the subject here.

Hunter had free run of the house where classified docs were found.

You're damned right the Biden Crime Family is the subject here.

 

[DANC]

You got danc cheering you on

I'm rubber, you're glue..... your next original insult will be your first.

 

[NPT]

Whistleblower?

Possibly but I wouldn't think a whistleblower would know what he had so he could have given some back and kept others. That's what is so bad about all of this.... Trump may still have some stashed somewhere and Biden too. Seems like classified documents are treated no different than we treat our mail .... very concerning.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

So you'd rather not wait until the Special Counsel reports to judge?

You don't know what the documents were - neither does Aloha, although you both like to think you do. And you don't know what a lie is and what is not. You know what you've heard in the media.

Where's your outrage over Biden having classified docs? Your lack of outrage in that instance is proof you're just being partisan.

You, Bing and I definitely don't know what was in the documents, but we all know that both of them had documents classified as Top Secret. It's pretty clear that Bing and I both think that it's a big deal for both of them and for HRC. The hypocrisy is all yours because you don't care about Trump's case and think Biden's is a big deal.

Personally, I'm outraged that these politicians are so lax with our nation's secrets and are treated so differently than anyone of us in the military or even those of us that are no longer in the military, but have Top-Secret clearances, would be treated. In the military I'd have faced some punishment (NJP or CM) and my career would have ended and possibly served some prison time. Now I'd also likely face some punishment from fines to jail and I'd no doubt lose my job because my job requires a Top-Secret clearance. HRC got an investigation and was basically given a dressing drown as "recklessly careless" and no legal punishment at all and went on to almost win the Presidency. Trump, who's shown almost no regard for protecting our nation's secrets serves as President and still is practically worshipped by a significant portion of our party, including you, and most of these people rightly thought what HRC did was egregious and deserved punishment. They're hypocrites. You are too. Biden will suffer politically, but won't suffer legally, because the HRC precedent has been set. Trump's case includes obstruction of justice, and he could be prosecuted for that. Biden's might as well, but so far there is no evidence of it. If he did, he could be impeached and most likely NOT convicted because our politicians don't give a crap about protecting classified information or even obstruction of justice. At least, not so far.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

No, but you didn't make it your life's work to make sure the world knew she broke the law, like you do with Trump.

You have a double standard - I don't know why you can't admit it.

You're hopeless. I spent more time on the HRC case explaining why she broke the law, broke policies on email, and displayed a total lack of leadership than I've spent on Trump's case. And I think Trump's case is clearly and obviously even worse than hers. There is intent and clear obstruction, based on what is known, that wasn't evident in HRC's case.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Hunter had free run of the house where classified docs were found.

You're damned right the Biden Crime Family is the subject here.

You're once again arguing in bad faith. Out for now.

 

[DANC]

You, Bing and I definitely don't know what was in the documents, but we all know that both of them had documents classified as Top Secret. It's pretty clear that Bing and I both think that it's a big deal for both of them and for HRC. The hypocrisy is all yours because you don't care about Trump's case and think Biden's is a big deal.

Personally, I'm outraged that these politicians are so lax with our nation's secrets and are treated so differently than anyone of us in the military or even those of us that are no longer in the military, but have Top-Secret clearances, would be treated. In the military I'd have faced some punishment (NJP or CM) and my career would have ended and possibly served some prison time. Now I'd also likely face some punishment from fines to jail and I'd no doubt lose my job because my job requires a Top-Secret clearance. HRC got an investigation and was basically given a dressing drown as "recklessly careless" and no legal punishment at all and went on to almost win the Presidency. Trump, who's shown almost no regard for protecting our nation's secrets serves as President and still is practically worshipped by a significant portion of our party, including you, and most of these people rightly thought what HRC did was egregious and deserved punishment. They're hypocrites. You are too. Biden will suffer politically, but won't suffer legally, because the HRC precedent has been set. Trump's case includes obstruction of justice, and he could be prosecuted for that. Biden's might as well, but so far there is no evidence of it. If he did, he could be impeached and most likely NOT convicted because our politicians don't give a crap about protecting classified information or even obstruction of justice. At least, not so far.

The standard was set with Hillary. I don't recall you rendering any garments over that.

Of course you're outraged - now. That's the most you've written about Hillary destroying classified data.

What Trump did, if he took classified documents, is bad and some punishment should be forthcoming. But tell me why he should have been worried about it after Hillary.

And he's privy to a lot more information that you, MrBing, and I are. He knows the history of past Presidents who have taken documents with them.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

You got Hickory cheering you on. 😂

WTF do I care? You can't respond to the simple, polite, clear post I made to you yesterday. You pretended it wasn't there. And just kept spouting your bullshit. Why do I care who likes what post? Man up and bring some proof or admit you can't.

 

[DANC]

Yeah, stoll - man up! lol

 

[zeke4ahs]

I don't "want it to be true". Hunter has already admitted what he was doing and it is supported by his laptop.

The Biden's are crooks. They may be protected by politics crooks, but the whole family is in on this.

The whole family? Who do you consider the whole family? He’s got a pretty large one. You think Naomi was involved? Wonder why Biden didn’t appoint any family members to the White House. That makes it really easy to run a criminal enterprise for the fam bam. Couple bill from the Saudi’s, couple patents from China….

 

[zeke4ahs]

Why would he give them up if he had declassified them?

In his mind, right? Easily duped.

 

[stollcpa]

WTF do I care? You can't respond to the simple, polite, clear post I made to you yesterday. You pretended it wasn't there. And just kept spouting your bullshit. Why do I care who likes what post? Man up and bring some proof or admit you can't.

I don’t which post you’re talking about.

 

[NPT]

 

[MrBing]

So you'd rather not wait until the Special Counsel reports to judge?

You don't know what the documents were - neither does Aloha, although you both like to think you do. And you don't know what a lie is and what is not. You know what you've heard in the media.

Where's your outrage over Biden having classified docs? Your lack of outrage in that instance is proof you're just being partisan.

We know what their classification was and that's all we have a need to know.

The President also shouldn't have had the documents he had. The law and policy says that classified documents aren't to be taken home or stored at home. I'm outraged that he and Trump both did it.

 

[MrBing]

Compared to how Clinton and Biden were treated.

State Department investigated and found violations by 30+ people. All or most of them probably no longer have clearances and never will have them again. They shouldn't. The FBI did a criminal investigation and found she and her staff mishandled classified information but didn't recommend prosecution. I think that was wrong and I said so. The entire thing was outrageous to me because it spotlighted that there top civilians are treated different than the rest of us. If that wasn't true she would have lost her clearance and been charged and convicted because it's what she deserved. I still voted for her because Trump was the alternative. I felt bad about voting for her but would have felt worse voting for Trump. She would have won easily if it weren't for the email scandal and that's all on her.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

We know what their classification was and that's all we have a need to know.

I disagree. I think it is important to know what information was in those documents to make an informed judgment about whether that person should be prosecuted, for what, what type of sentence to seek. So just for the criminal prosecution, if you are going to judge it, you need to know what was in the dox.

I'll grant you, though, that the govt interest in keeping classified info secret usually should outweigh the public's interest in knowing the details of a criminal trial. But if both people are running for President, that balance shifts, dramatically. I'd argue that the electorate need to know what was in those documents to make an informed choice on each candidate. (Of course, that assumes the electorate makes informed choices, and there is a lot of evidence to suggest that's not how voters operate).

Also, I'd note that governments have incentives to over classify dox, rather than under classify. One of those incentives is to save the government from embarrassment and judgment and so I think it's naive to assume all classified dox really meet the standard required.

 

[DANC]

The whole family? Who do you consider the whole family? He’s got a pretty large one. You think Naomi was involved? Wonder why Biden didn’t appoint any family members to the White House. That makes it really easy to run a criminal enterprise for the fam bam. Couple bill from the Saudi’s, couple patents from China….

Are you really this dense? He didn't appoint family members because they couldn't accept millions of dollars from the Chinese, Ukranians, and Russians directly like Hunter did and then feed the Big Guy his 10%.

Seriously, wake up.

 

[MrBing]

I disagree. I think it is important to know what information was in those documents to make an informed judgment about whether that person should be prosecuted, for what, what type of sentence to seek. So just for the criminal prosecution, if you are going to judge it, you need to know what was in the dox.

I'll grant you, though, that the govt interest in keeping classified info secret usually should outweigh the public's interest in knowing the details of a criminal trial. But if both people are running for President, that balance shifts, dramatically. I'd argue that the electorate need to know what was in those documents to make an informed choice on each candidate. (Of course, that assumes the electorate makes informed choices, and there is a lot of evidence to suggest that's not how voters operate).

Also, I'd note that governments have incentives to over classify dox, rather than under classify. One of those incentives is to save the government from embarrassment and judgment and so I think it's naive to assume all classified dox really meet the standard required.

WE don't need to know. What's in them has to be known by the investigators who will determine if they were compromised and how damaging it is if they were. Informing the public what was in those documents is totally compromising the information and it's not going to happen.

Also overclassification is overblown. It rarely happens and almost never happens at Secret and Top Secret levels. When I've seen it it's usually Confidential level and that's the lowest. I've seen things like trip records or general agendas for things that happened years back that shouldn't remain classified. They usually have declassification dates that are too far into the future.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

Maybe someone could, but I'm pretty sure all of the systems on which classified info resides are physically separated from any outside networks.

Regardless, Marvin's point is we already use these systems in addition to paper copies for the technology-impaired octogenarians who rule us, so why not get rid of those paper copies, since they seem to be the ones that end up in garages and underwear drawers?

good thing people don't all have phones with cameras and the ability to send pics taken with said phones around the world in less than a second.

yes, the paper copies end up in garages and closets.

no telling where all the digital copies end up.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Are you really this dense? He didn't appoint family members because they couldn't accept millions of dollars from the Chinese, Ukranians, and Russians directly like Hunter did and then feed the Big Guy his 10%.

Seriously, wake up.

Thanks man. I just couldn't do it. It was way to easy.

 

[DANC]

We know what their classification was and that's all we have a need to know.

The President also shouldn't have had the documents he had. The law and policy says that classified documents aren't to be taken home or stored at home. I'm outraged that he and Trump both did it.

Thing is, Bing, this isn't anything new. Past Presidents have done the same thing with no penalty.

And no one even mentions all the leaks from Congressional Committees like the House Intelligence Committee, whose members not only spread false information but leaked classified information - where are the punishments for that?

I said in another post, no elected official (I don't count us peons, because we know the law comes down hard on us) will take national security seriously until people start going to jail.

What really ought to piss you off is, these Biden docs were discovered before the election -and the Georgia run-off - and not announced for 2 1/2 months - and then more were found! Where was the FBI in those months after the initial batch was found in the 'Biden Penn' Center? Why wasn't the Biden house - where known drug addict was living - raided to try to find documents that were found by Biden's personal lawyers? That's called influencing an election and I know all good Democrats are strongly against such a thing.

 

[MrBing]

Thing is, Bing, this isn't anything new. Past Presidents have done the same thing with no penalty.

And no one even mentions all the leaks from Congressional Committees like the House Intelligence Committee, whose members not only spread false information but leaked classified information - where are the punishments for that?

I said in another post, no elected official (I don't count us peons, because we know the law comes down hard on us) will take national security seriously until people start going to jail.

What really ought to piss you off is, these Biden docs were discovered before the election -and the Georgia run-off - and not announced for 2 1/2 months - and then more were found! Where was the FBI in those months after the initial batch was found in the 'Biden Penn' Center? Why wasn't the Biden house - where known drug addict was living - raided to try to find documents that were found by Biden's personal lawyers? That's called influencing an election and I know all good Democrats are strongly against such a thing.

Not revealing that Biden's were found before the mid-term is going to be hard to explain. That's why I said this is going to be a big political problem for him. He's doing a bad job with the PR on this. His press secretary is terrible.

There isn't any evidence that past Presidents did what Trump or Biden did. They may have had some in their documents but if they were returned we wouldn't hear about it. That's what they supposed to do.

 

[DANC]

I disagree. I think it is important to know what information was in those documents to make an informed judgment about whether that person should be prosecuted, for what, what type of sentence to seek. So just for the criminal prosecution, if you are going to judge it, you need to know what was in the dox.

I'll grant you, though, that the govt interest in keeping classified info secret usually should outweigh the public's interest in knowing the details of a criminal trial. But if both people are running for President, that balance shifts, dramatically. I'd argue that the electorate need to know what was in those documents to make an informed choice on each candidate. (Of course, that assumes the electorate makes informed choices, and there is a lot of evidence to suggest that's not how voters operate).

Also, I'd note that governments have incentives to over classify dox, rather than under classify. One of those incentives is to save the government from embarrassment and judgment and so I think it's naive to assume all classified dox really meet the standard required.

Good points, Brad.

Hey, whatever happened to that 'evaluation' of Trump docs the intelligence community was supposed to make? Ever hear anything about that? No? Wonder why.....

US intelligence to probe security risks of Trump documents

Classified records kept at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate could include information on US intelligence gathering and spying.

www.aljazeera.com

Whatever happened to the Trump classified documents 'damage assessment?'

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE TRUMP CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS 'DAMAGE ASSESSMENT?' It was big news at the time. Shortly after the Aug. 8, 2022, FBI raid to seize classified documents at Mar-a-Lago, the winter home of former President Donald Trump, Democrats in Congress asked the intelligence community to do…

www.washingtonexaminer.com

 

[i'vegotwinners]

Are you really this dense? He didn't appoint family members because they couldn't accept millions of dollars from the Chinese, Ukranians, and Russians directly like Hunter did and then feed the Big Guy his 10%.

Seriously, wake up.

do you think "the big guy" Donald got a piece of the 2 bil Jarod K got from the Saudi prince who now rules SA?

problem is, both sides think only the other side needs to wake up, while their side gladly remains in a self induced coma.

the Biden crime family, the Trump crime family, the Clinton crime family, probably all deserve prison for their corruption, as does GWB for his treasonous behavior which cost who knows how many lives.

and let's reserve plenty of cells for senate members who sell out the country and citizenry for self gain on a regular basis.

the problem isn't both sides going after the other side's crooks.. it's both sides protecting their own side's crooks while doing so.

 

[DANC]

Not revealing that Biden's were found before the mid-term is going to be hard to explain. That's why I said this is going to be a big political problem for him. He's doing a bad job with the PR on this. His press secretary is terrible.

The Lyndon B. Johnson Library had delayed in releasing the final batch of his secret tapes until 2016. This came 47 years after he left office.

In 2001, then-President George W. Bush issued an executive order that changed the act from guaranteeing public access to the documents to one that blocks it, though Congress overturned parts of the order in 2014, according to Bovard.

Politico reported in 2014 that Obama administration lawyers had repeatedly invoked the Presidential Records Act to "delay the release of thousands of pages of records from President Bill Clinton’s White House."

Obama, Nixon delayed for years in returning Presidential Records Act-covered documents

The Presidential Records Act has come into the spotlight after FBI agents raided former President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence under the suspicion that he has held onto documents covered under this act.

thepostmillennial.com

 

[MrBing]

The Lyndon B. Johnson Library had delayed in releasing the final batch of his secret tapes until 2016. This came 47 years after he left office.

In 2001, then-President George W. Bush issued an executive order that changed the act from guaranteeing public access to the documents to one that blocks it, though Congress overturned parts of the order in 2014, according to Bovard.

Politico reported in 2014 that Obama administration lawyers had repeatedly invoked the Presidential Records Act to "delay the release of thousands of pages of records from President Bill Clinton’s White House."

Obama, Nixon delayed for years in returning Presidential Records Act-covered documents

The Presidential Records Act has come into the spotlight after FBI agents raided former President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence under the suspicion that he has held onto documents covered under this act.

thepostmillennial.com

There is nothing illegal with any of those examples. They aren't the same kind of issue.

 

[DANC]

There is nothing illegal with any of those examples. They aren't the same kind of issue.

Uh, when classified documents aren't turned over for years, it's the same thing Trump, as an ex-President did.

And Trump's were in a compound protected by the Secret Service.

 

[DANC]

There is nothing illegal with any of those examples. They aren't the same kind of issue.

How about this one?

It’s Not Just Trump — LBJ Took Classified Documents Too

Donald Trump isn’t the only president to take government documents with him before leaving the White House: LBJ did it too.

theintercept.com

 

[MrBing]

How about this one?

It’s Not Just Trump — LBJ Took Classified Documents Too

Donald Trump isn’t the only president to take government documents with him before leaving the White House: LBJ did it too.

theintercept.com

That's definitely scandalous and an example that doesn't seem to match much of what is know about Hillary, Biden and Trump cases. Wasn't Nixon called "Tricky Dicky" or something like that? It was long before my time!