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Thoughts on last night, and IUs future

IUNorth

Hall of Famer
Oct 25, 2002
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Overall, I just think last night was...weird. St Mary's is not a good enough team, overall, to do what they did to us. And the only way that happens, is our guys had to have quit mentally. Which would make exactly 1 game all year long, that that has happened. So it's just weird, to me, that whatever the conditions, circumstances, something about Mary's, whatever it was, caused us to quit...not in some game in the long, grinding, month of January...not against an obviously more talented team...but in what was probably one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, games in each of our players lives, against a good, but not great mid major level program.

All the flaws and weaknesses were exposed last night, obviously. But we've had them all year long, and we've ground out respectable performances in basically every game. Even the "blowout" losses to Illinois and Michigan, the 2 games all season long where we might have seemed to not show up, or to quit...they were very competitive games well into the 2nd half.

So...weird.

Going forward its going to be fascinating, to me, what players stay and what players go. Most likely we won't be able to make too many conclusions on how good the culture is, how well the guys like each other, where everyone's minds are at, etc... just by who stays and who leaves. But obviously if we have a mass exodus, that isn't good. Its not good for the product on the court, but more importantly, it'd be a terrible indicator that the locker room wasn't as good or as strong as many of us hoped it was. We have a flawed roster right now. We have a flawed coach. But both of those things can improve. The guys that come back can shoot hundreds/thousands of shots a day and get better. We can get transfers and recruits that will make it better. Coach Woodson can watch film, reflect, pick Matta's brain, etc... and get a lot better. I actually assume those things will all happen. But if we see a mass exodus of players, that's a sign that something deeper is broken. That the late game fades are a result of something deeper. That the reason for the seemingly "weird" game last night, could be a culmination of those deeper issues.

So, I'm actually hoping every single one of our players wants to come back. Because for me, that would be an incredibly good sign that Woody and the guys have something strong foundationally to build on for next year. Because if that's true, using this year as a benchmark and starting point, we have a chance to be a lot better, and really good next year.

Obviously everyone can't come back. With 3 incoming freshmen, some are going to have to leave. And who those people are will certainly have an impact on how good we'll be next year. But its MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more important, to me, why they end up leaving, than who actually leaves. We have older guys, a couple that have legit chances at making money playing basketball. Leaving to explore those opportunities, that's healthy and expected for a high level program. We also have a slew of talented younger kids, that didn't get much playing time this year. Those are the kids I'll be paying closer attention to. If kids like Tamar, Jordan, Khristian, Trey, Anthony, Logan...leave...that's not a good sign for our program, in my opinion. As with most things...it'll likely end up being somewhere in the middle.

We shall see. Weird night last night.
 
Overall, I just think last night was...weird. St Mary's is not a good enough team, overall, to do what they did to us. And the only way that happens, is our guys had to have quit mentally. Which would make exactly 1 game all year long, that that has happened. So it's just weird, to me, that whatever the conditions, circumstances, something about Mary's, whatever it was, caused us to quit...not in some game in the long, grinding, month of January...not against an obviously more talented team...but in what was probably one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, games in each of our players lives, against a good, but not great mid major level program.

All the flaws and weaknesses were exposed last night, obviously. But we've had them all year long, and we've ground out respectable performances in basically every game. Even the "blowout" losses to Illinois and Michigan, the 2 games all season long where we might have seemed to not show up, or to quit...they were very competitive games well into the 2nd half.

So...weird.

Going forward its going to be fascinating, to me, what players stay and what players go. Most likely we won't be able to make too many conclusions on how good the culture is, how well the guys like each other, where everyone's minds are at, etc... just by who stays and who leaves. But obviously if we have a mass exodus, that isn't good. Its not good for the product on the court, but more importantly, it'd be a terrible indicator that the locker room wasn't as good or as strong as many of us hoped it was. We have a flawed roster right now. We have a flawed coach. But both of those things can improve. The guys that come back can shoot hundreds/thousands of shots a day and get better. We can get transfers and recruits that will make it better. Coach Woodson can watch film, reflect, pick Matta's brain, etc... and get a lot better. I actually assume those things will all happen. But if we see a mass exodus of players, that's a sign that something deeper is broken. That the late game fades are a result of something deeper. That the reason for the seemingly "weird" game last night, could be a culmination of those deeper issues.

So, I'm actually hoping every single one of our players wants to come back. Because for me, that would be an incredibly good sign that Woody and the guys have something strong foundationally to build on for next year. Because if that's true, using this year as a benchmark and starting point, we have a chance to be a lot better, and really good next year.

Obviously everyone can't come back. With 3 incoming freshmen, some are going to have to leave. And who those people are will certainly have an impact on how good we'll be next year. But its MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more important, to me, why they end up leaving, than who actually leaves. We have older guys, a couple that have legit chances at making money playing basketball. Leaving to explore those opportunities, that's healthy and expected for a high level program. We also have a slew of talented younger kids, that didn't get much playing time this year. Those are the kids I'll be paying closer attention to. If kids like Tamar, Jordan, Khristian, Trey, Anthony, Logan...leave...that's not a good sign for our program, in my opinion. As with most things...it'll likely end up being somewhere in the middle.

We shall see. Weird night last night.
Agree. I can't even begin to analyze last night. Was just watching it in a stupor, so I'm just going to forget about it. The team was in a stupor as well. As far as next year, just have to wait and see how the roster plays out as it is probably going to be vastly different.
 
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against a good, but not great mid major level program
Ummm, good but not great? We must've watched 2 different games. And if you're talking "program" vs team, the only thing that's kept them from being a great mid-major is Gonzaga. They've been really good for a good while now. That was just the college version of the NBA game: perimeter oriented, move the ball and get a 3 or a layup and they executed it perfectly. We were tired, but we weren't beating that team last night no matter how well we played. That was a Model T vs a horse drawn wagon and we know how that turned out.

I thought they were fantastic and fun to watch if it weren't my Hoosiers being cut up and thrown to the floor. I am looking forward to watching them vs UCLA. Don't think they don't relish the chance to take down the Goliath on the west coast, and I hope they do. Congrats Gaels and good luck!
 
The Johnson kid was the biggest difference to me. We had no answer for him. He drew so much attention. The other players are just well coached old men. Guards were just better.
 
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What makes Saint Mary's group unique is that it's an old, experienced unit. The team plays a disciplined, almost European style with calculated cuts, screens, shot selection, etc. No one player is bigger than the team in Randy Bennett's system. I'm not sure if it's possible to build that type of program in the Big Ten or other major conferences, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't jealous of what Saint Mary's has...
 
What makes Saint Mary's group unique is that it's an old, experienced unit. The team plays a disciplined, almost European style with calculated cuts, screens, shot selection, etc. No one player is bigger than the team in Randy Bennett's system. I'm not sure if it's possible to build that type of program in the Big Ten or other major conferences, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't jealous of what Saint Mary's has...
We are talking about that at work.
 
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The Johnson kid was the biggest difference to me. We had no answer for him. He drew so much attention. The other players are just well coached old men. Guards were just better.
Cracks me up how folks here are still underselling their team, after we just got totally gutted by them. That PG was the engine and controlled the game, but I agree Johnson was fantastic. The big man did what he needed to do, and his sub performed well too. They were a very solid team all the way around, and maybe they only beat us by 20 without Johnson?
 
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What makes Saint Mary's group unique is that it's an old, experienced unit. The team plays a disciplined, almost European style with calculated cuts, screens, shot selection, etc. No one player is bigger than the team in Randy Bennett's system. I'm not sure if it's possible to build that type of program in the Big Ten or other major conferences, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't jealous of what Saint Mary's has...
and I don't think it's so much Euro as the college version of the NBA. All those folks who say they don't like to watch the NBA either haven't watched in 5+ years or aren't bball fans. The skill level for passing and shooting is really incredible. It's exactly what St Marys did to us on steroids.
 
Overall, I just think last night was...weird. St Mary's is not a good enough team, overall, to do what they did to us. And the only way that happens, is our guys had to have quit mentally. Which would make exactly 1 game all year long, that that has happened. So it's just weird, to me, that whatever the conditions, circumstances, something about Mary's, whatever it was, caused us to quit...not in some game in the long, grinding, month of January...not against an obviously more talented team...but in what was probably one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, games in each of our players lives, against a good, but not great mid major level program.
Harped on this all week. St. Mary's is a very good team. I don't think they are 30 points better than IU, but they beat IU 7-8/10 times. Most disciplined team IU has played this year outside maybe Wisconsin and both teams are extremely similar. St. Mary's did exactly what I said they were going to do last night. They were going to dictate the tempo and make IU play at their pace and they were going to force IU to play and execute in the half court as well as make perimeter shots. We did neither. They aren't anywhere near the most "talented" team we played this year, but certainly one of the best. Don't think there's an argument to be made otherwise.
 
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Overall, I just think last night was...weird. St Mary's is not a good enough team, overall, to do what they did to us. And the only way that happens, is our guys had to have quit mentally. Which would make exactly 1 game all year long, that that has happened. So it's just weird, to me, that whatever the conditions, circumstances, something about Mary's, whatever it was, caused us to quit...not in some game in the long, grinding, month of January...not against an obviously more talented team...but in what was probably one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, games in each of our players lives, against a good, but not great mid major level program.

All the flaws and weaknesses were exposed last night, obviously. But we've had them all year long, and we've ground out respectable performances in basically every game. Even the "blowout" losses to Illinois and Michigan, the 2 games all season long where we might have seemed to not show up, or to quit...they were very competitive games well into the 2nd half.

So...weird.

Going forward its going to be fascinating, to me, what players stay and what players go. Most likely we won't be able to make too many conclusions on how good the culture is, how well the guys like each other, where everyone's minds are at, etc... just by who stays and who leaves. But obviously if we have a mass exodus, that isn't good. Its not good for the product on the court, but more importantly, it'd be a terrible indicator that the locker room wasn't as good or as strong as many of us hoped it was. We have a flawed roster right now. We have a flawed coach. But both of those things can improve. The guys that come back can shoot hundreds/thousands of shots a day and get better. We can get transfers and recruits that will make it better. Coach Woodson can watch film, reflect, pick Matta's brain, etc... and get a lot better. I actually assume those things will all happen. But if we see a mass exodus of players, that's a sign that something deeper is broken. That the late game fades are a result of something deeper. That the reason for the seemingly "weird" game last night, could be a culmination of those deeper issues.

So, I'm actually hoping every single one of our players wants to come back. Because for me, that would be an incredibly good sign that Woody and the guys have something strong foundationally to build on for next year. Because if that's true, using this year as a benchmark and starting point, we have a chance to be a lot better, and really good next year.

Obviously everyone can't come back. With 3 incoming freshmen, some are going to have to leave. And who those people are will certainly have an impact on how good we'll be next year. But its MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more important, to me, why they end up leaving, than who actually leaves. We have older guys, a couple that have legit chances at making money playing basketball. Leaving to explore those opportunities, that's healthy and expected for a high level program. We also have a slew of talented younger kids, that didn't get much playing time this year. Those are the kids I'll be paying closer attention to. If kids like Tamar, Jordan, Khristian, Trey, Anthony, Logan...leave...that's not a good sign for our program, in my opinion. As with most things...it'll likely end up being somewhere in the middle.

We shall see. Weird night last night.
I really hope that not everyone comes back. Some are just not that good.
 
what was weird is that, while we have seen the various flaws in this IU team throughout the year, a few rearing their ugly head in each game, StM managed to expose every single one of them at the same time in the same game. It was open kimono time last night. There wasn't one IU team deficiency that wasn't on full display the entire game last night. Bad X, TJD no energy, Race M.I.A, no shooters, zero from PS/Kopp, Rob can't shoot, TG playing too fast, 5 subs in at once and then momentum jumps the rails for good....all the bad came out at once.

We were up 21-17 then StM went on something like a 50-12 run. That's just unheard of. And it can't all be blamed on jet lag and tired legs.
 
This reminds me of the Evansville Reitz State final Championship ballgame in 2015, when they lost to Caleb Swanigan in a 91-90 overtime loss.

The Reitz boys were a well oiled machine (until the final 2 minutes of regulation) and that group had played together since Elementary School. Each player knew when the other players were going to Fart.
They had played together so much.... that they could no look a pass, and know that their teammate would be at a specific spot at the moment the ball arrives.
 
Harped on this all week. St. Mary's is a very good team. I don't think they are 30 points better than IU, but they beat IU 7-8/10 times. Most disciplined team IU has played this year outside maybe Wisconsin and both teams are extremely similar. St. Mary's did exactly what I said they were going to do last night. They were going to dictate the tempo and make IU play at their pace and they were going to force IU to play and execute in the half court as well as make perimeter shots. We did neither. They aren't anywhere near the most "talented" team we played this year, but certainly one of the best. Don't think there's an argument to be made otherwise.
why do people not count discipline and hard work as a talent? Very few will do it. That was an extremely talented team last night, and I think they beat WI nearly as often as what you said about us. I don't believe we beat them 2 or 3 out of 10. Maybe once, imho. They are exactly what this team has never been: disciplined and good shooting.
 
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and I don't think it's so much Euro as the college version of the NBA. All those folks who say they don't like to watch the NBA either haven't watched in 5+ years or aren't bball fans. The skill level for passing and shooting is really incredible. It's exactly what St Marys did to us on steroids.
I think Saint Mary's style is different than the NBA in the fact it's not predicated on the two-man pick-and-roll game and iso sets. That's just my two cents.
 
I think Saint Mary's style is different than the NBA in the fact it's not predicated on the two-man pick-and-roll game and iso sets. That's just my two cents.
I'm betting you haven't watched an NBA game in that 5 year period. pick and roll and isolation... nope. I don't watch a ton, but every team I see plays 4-5 out with laser passes, moving the ball for the best 3 or layup they can find. The only isolation is if someone has an exceptional player like Giannis or Doncic and then it's generally after they've created a mismatch with their passing. It's chess vs checkers.
 
why do people not count discipline and hard work as a talent? Very few will do it. That was an extremely talented team last night, and I think they beat WI nearly as often as what you said about us. I don't believe we beat them 2 or 3 out of 10. Maybe once, imho. They are exactly what this team has never been: disciplined and good shooting.
I'm talking talent and how it compares to the next level. There's not a single NBA player on that team and doubt anyone good enough to play in the G-League. And that is ok. St. Mary's didn't do anything to overwhelm IU last night, they simply executed 10x better than us and didn't make mistakes. You don't need talent to do that.
 
why do people not count discipline and hard work as a talent? Very few will do it. That was an extremely talented team last night, and I think they beat WI nearly as often as what you said about us. I don't believe we beat them 2 or 3 out of 10. Maybe once, imho. They are exactly what this team has never been: disciplined and good shooting.
I referenced this in another recent tread...what RMK used to say...everyone has the will to win, but few have the will to prepare to win. ie...you wanna win? bust your ass in practice, play smart in the game. And put in a hard summer to improve on your weaknesses. Otherwise, we'll be having these very same discussions next March.
 
I'm betting you haven't watched an NBA game in that 5 year period. pick and roll and isolation... nope. I don't watch a ton, but every team I see plays 4-5 out with laser passes, moving the ball for the best 3 or layup they can find. The only isolation is if someone has an exceptional player like Giannis or Doncic and then it's generally after they've created a mismatch with their passing. It's chess vs checkers.
I screamed several times when our guys got burned on the high screen pick n roll. That's the first play they taught us in 4th grade school ball, yet our guys fell for it time and time again. Was like watching Karl Malone and Jon Stockton. Most simple play to run, but when poorly defended, generates the easiest baskets in the entire game. It's a sign of disciplined team. Getting burned by it is a sign of just not having your head in the game.
 
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I'm talking talent and how it compares to the next level. There's not a single NBA player on that team and doubt anyone good enough to play in the G-League. And that is ok. St. Mary's didn't do anything to overwhelm IU last night, they simply executed 10x better than us and didn't make mistakes. You don't need talent to do that.
Yes and yes. I’m eating crow this AM.
 
Good Thoughts IUNorth.

here is another thought. Was this a classic letdown after winning the first NCAA game since eons ago? This may have been much more like the Mi letdown after PU than fans would like to admit.

Wyoming had the raw end of the travel stick versus us. We got basically a home game. Everyone was looking ahead.

As to culture: Anyone catch the announcers talking about St Mary’s culture last night? They built that program the old school way. No portal, just recruiting and let the kids develop in a program (that is all about the program, and the culture established). Anyone else feel like their entire team was recruited based upon what is between their ears?
 
I'm talking talent and how it compares to the next level. There's not a single NBA player on that team and doubt anyone good enough to play in the G-League. And that is ok. St. Mary's didn't do anything to overwhelm IU last night, they simply executed 10x better than us and didn't make mistakes. You don't need talent to do that.
St Mary’s Johnson was the most talented player on the floor. Tass & their pg were very, very good. Everyone else on their team filled their role - disciplined, could shoot, play d & rebound
 
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I'm betting you haven't watched an NBA game in that 5 year period. pick and roll and isolation... nope. I don't watch a ton, but every team I see plays 4-5 out with laser passes, moving the ball for the best 3 or layup they can find. The only isolation is if someone has an exceptional player like Giannis or Doncic and then it's generally after they've created a mismatch with their passing. It's chess vs checkers.
Got it. I suppose the NBA really has drifted toward the Golden State style of basketball. Interesting.
 
Good Thoughts IUNorth.

here is another thought. Was this a classic letdown after winning the first NCAA game since eons ago? This may have been much more like the Mi letdown after PU than fans would like to admit.

Wyoming had the raw end of the travel stick versus us. We got basically a home game. Everyone was looking ahead.

As to culture: Anyone catch the announcers talking about St Mary’s culture last night? They built that program the old school way. No portal, just recruiting and let the kids develop in a program (that is all about the program, and the culture established). Anyone else feel like their entire team was recruited based upon what is between their ears?
I feel the same way about the Saint Mary's culture. It seems Randy Bennett brings in kids he knows are good fits for his program. Each kid buys in to the culture and understands/appreciates what his specific role is. I would be thrilled if IU and Mike Woodson could build something similar.
 
I referenced this in another recent tread...what RMK used to say...everyone has the will to win, but few have the will to prepare to win. ie...you wanna win? bust your ass in practice, play smart in the game. And put in a hard summer to improve on your weaknesses. Otherwise, we'll be having these very same discussions next March.
I love all of this.

Kobe Bryant always championed the concept of putting in the work behind the scenes when no one is looking. I remember hearing about Victor Oladipo putting in work and getting shots up in the Cook Hall practice facility after games and practices. I would love to see guys like Geronimo, Bates, Galloway, etc. do the same thing over the summer. I want them to have the desire to do more than what is asked of them. That's what separates truly great players from the rest.
 
and I don't think it's so much Euro as the college version of the NBA. All those folks who say they don't like to watch the NBA either haven't watched in 5+ years or aren't bball fans. The skill level for passing and shooting is really incredible. It's exactly what St Marys did to us on steroids.
Obviously they're a good team. I said as much. But lets not make them out to be something they aren't. You're making them out to be the Warriors...they aren't. They aren't even a modern style team, as you claimed. Throughout the season, they play one of the slowest paces of any team in the nation. They are literally the WCC version of Wisconsin.

Speaking of Wisconsin, they lost to them in a strikingly similar fashion, and margin, to what we did in our games with them. They also lost to Colorado State, BYU, Santa Clara, San Diego State, and obviously Gonzaga. And their wins over tournament level teams were nearly all close games.

So, I repeat, they aren't good enough to do to us what they did last night. Their talent level doesn't suggest it. Their recent history in games this year doesn't suggest it. And their school history doesn't suggest it.
 
I referenced this in another recent tread...what RMK used to say...everyone has the will to win, but few have the will to prepare to win. ie...you wanna win? bust your ass in practice, play smart in the game. And put in a hard summer to improve on your weaknesses. Otherwise, we'll be having these very same discussions next March.
and it worked the other way too, when RMK lovers used to say he was such a better coach than Dean Smith, who was just a recruiter. Isn't recruiting part of coaching? It's never been like the old IROC races with evenly prepared rosters. Getting the best players is certainly part of coaching and having discipline and being willing to do the work is a talent or skill in my book. Anyone can, but few do.
 
what was weird is that, while we have seen the various flaws in this IU team throughout the year, a few rearing their ugly head in each game, StM managed to expose every single one of them at the same time in the same game. It was open kimono time last night. There wasn't one IU team deficiency that wasn't on full display the entire game last night. Bad X, TJD no energy, Race M.I.A, no shooters, zero from PS/Kopp, Rob can't shoot, TG playing too fast, 5 subs in at once and then momentum jumps the rails for good....all the bad came out at once.

We were up 21-17 then StM went on something like a 50-12 run. That's just unheard of. And it can't all be blamed on jet lag and tired legs.
Kind of my point. Its weird.

And no, there's NOTHING about St Mary's that should have produced that level of dominance. Obviously they're better than we are top to bottom. I think they beat us more times than not. But 50-12 run us??? That literally should never happen against a team like St Mary's. They're not good enough or athletic enough to do that. I'd venture a guess that they didn't do that to a single other team on their schedule.
 
Harped on this all week. St. Mary's is a very good team. I don't think they are 30 points better than IU, but they beat IU 7-8/10 times. Most disciplined team IU has played this year outside maybe Wisconsin and both teams are extremely similar. St. Mary's did exactly what I said they were going to do last night. They were going to dictate the tempo and make IU play at their pace and they were going to force IU to play and execute in the half court as well as make perimeter shots. We did neither. They aren't anywhere near the most "talented" team we played this year, but certainly one of the best. Don't think there's an argument to be made otherwise.
I obviously could be wrong. UCLA didn't exactly overwhelm Akron. They were lucky to survive. But I think UCLA will handle St Mary's. And I think if we played St Mary's 10 times, we'd have 9 really close, competitive games. I do think they'd beat us way more often than not, because of the things you and others have mentioned. There's no denying they're good. But to me, seems obvious they're, at best, similar talent/skill/overall wise to Wisconsin. Wisconsin has Johnny Davis, a first team all American, likely lottery pick. St Mary's doesn't have anyone like him, despite how we made them look last night. St Mary's big was better than any of Wisconsin's bigs. They had the 5th year PG, who is really good. But Wisconsin has a very, very good freshman PG, and they have their own really solid 5th year guy in Davison. Beyond that, they're basically the same team. St Marys shot really well against us last night, but they aren't lights out usually.

Its a really good comp. We've never been housed that badly by even the best Wisconsin teams.

It was weird. They quit for some reason.
 
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Obviously they're a good team. I said as much. But lets not make them out to be something they aren't. You're making them out to be the Warriors...they aren't. They aren't even a modern style team, as you claimed. Throughout the season, they play one of the slowest paces of any team in the nation. They are literally the WCC version of Wisconsin.

Speaking of Wisconsin, they lost to them in a strikingly similar fashion, and margin, to what we did in our games with them. They also lost to Colorado State, BYU, Santa Clara, San Diego State, and obviously Gonzaga. And their wins over tournament level teams were nearly all close games.

So, I repeat, they aren't good enough to do to us what they did last night. Their talent level doesn't suggest it. Their recent history in games this year doesn't suggest it. And their school history doesn't suggest it.
No, I'm saying they play a style similar to NBA teams, and have tweaked it to their benefit, specifically because they don't have the best talent. The results are the same: they get good looks from 3 or layups. And you can suggest they aren't good enough to do what they did and I could buy that, except that the score says they were. Do they play as well as they did last night, every game? Obviously no, but they are playing a smart and disciplined system that allows them to have greater success than what their recruiting or athletic talent would suggest.

Good article on the changes to the NBA game over the years:

 
Speaking of Wisconsin, they lost to them in a strikingly similar fashion, and margin, to what we did in our games with them. They also lost to Colorado State, BYU, Santa Clara, San Diego State, and obviously Gonzaga. And their wins over tournament level teams were nearly all close games.
All those teams you mention run extremely efficient offenses and can make perimeter shots with the exception of SDSU (who is #3 efficient defense) which is a must when you're playing a team like St. Mary's considering the pace they play at and how well they defend. Agree that a 50-12 run should never happen and it ballooned once the mental and physical fatigue had set in once they game was decided in the first 3 minutes of the second half, but St. Mary's was a potential bad matchup all along given their strengths vs our weaknesses.

Excluding us, St. Mary's was by far and away the most efficient defense we've played all year and the only B10 team remotely close was Wisconsin, who go figure, lost to twice and have lost to seemingly every year for the last two decades.
 
I'm talking talent and how it compares to the next level. There's not a single NBA player on that team and doubt anyone good enough to play in the G-League. And that is ok. St. Mary's didn't do anything to overwhelm IU last night, they simply executed 10x better than us and didn't make mistakes. You don't need talent to do that.
I don't know, with the premium on passing and shooting, an NBA team may find a place for one of their guys. I'd say the most likely would be Ducas who has decent size and a great stroke. I'm not going to argue semantics, you want to say that's not a talented team that has talented players? OK, we can agree to disagree.
 
I don't know, with the premium on passing and shooting, an NBA team may find a place for one of their guys. I'd say the most likely would be Ducas who has decent size and a great stroke. I'm not going to argue semantics, you want to say that's not a talented team that has talented players? OK, we can agree to disagree.
I didn't say they weren't talented, I said they were nowhere near the most talented team we've played this year. Being the most talented team doesn't automatically equate to being the best team.
 
St Mary’s is a very, very good team. Great shooters, strong defense & rebounding, minimal turnovers - they would be able to play & beat any team in the B1G.
I am interested to see how St. Mary's does against UCLA. Given they really have not beaten anyone good except Gonzaga I will not be convinced they are this elite 8 top level talent until I see them take down another Power 5 team. They lost to Wisconsin, Colorado State, and BYU this season. They did barely beat Notre Dame. Not saying they are not good but I do not think they are the machine some are making them out to be we were just flat out awful last night. I do not believe they are 30 points better than us we just played our worst game of the season by far and that is why they looked like a machine. I would not be surprised at all if UCLA beats them.
 
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All those teams you mention run extremely efficient offenses and can make perimeter shots with the exception of SDSU (who is #3 efficient defense) which is a must when you're playing a team like St. Mary's considering the pace they play at and how well they defend. Agree that a 50-12 run should never happen and it ballooned once the mental and physical fatigue had set in once they game was decided in the first 3 minutes of the second half, but St. Mary's was a potential bad matchup all along given their strengths vs our weaknesses.

Excluding us, St. Mary's was by far and away the most efficient defense we've played all year and the only B10 team remotely close was Wisconsin, who go figure, lost to twice and have lost to seemingly every year for the last two decades.
They all also either lost in the first round, or didn't make the tournament.

My point wasn't that St Mary's isnt good, or that they aren't a bad matchup. They are good. They are a bad matchup. Their similarities to Wisconsin prove that. I was one of the few saying how brutal a matchup it was before the game was played. To be fair, my brutal call was more about the combination of St Marys AND UCLA, but it was because BOTH teams were rated higher than IU in both offensive and defensive efficiency.

So, I'm not questioning losing to them. Its all about getting a 50-12 run put on us. Its just difficult to comprehend how a team like St Mary's could do that. Gonzaga, Kansas, teams like that with overwhelming talent and skill...even that would be tough to swallow...St Mary's? Again, the only word I can find that makes any sense to me is "weird".
 
They all also either lost in the first round, or didn't make the tournament.

My point wasn't that St Mary's isnt good, or that they aren't a bad matchup. They are good. They are a bad matchup. Their similarities to Wisconsin prove that. I was one of the few saying how brutal a matchup it was before the game was played. To be fair, my brutal call was more about the combination of St Marys AND UCLA, but it was because BOTH teams were rated higher than IU in both offensive and defensive efficiency.

So, I'm not questioning losing to them. Its all about getting a 50-12 run put on us. Its just difficult to comprehend how a team like St Mary's could do that. Gonzaga, Kansas, teams like that with overwhelming talent and skill...even that would be tough to swallow...St Mary's? Again, the only word I can find that makes any sense to me is "weird".
your answer as to why they were able to put on such a run lies with IU, not St Marys. They'd just had enough and were tired after the BTT, # of games, travel, lack of sleep, but I truly believe that team would beat ours 8-9 out of 10, just because they are everything we aren't: disciplined, good shooting, smart... This group of players has frustrated me for years with how careless they are with leads and it just all came to a head last night, but it's why we've struggled so much vs WI and I think would struggle against St Marys if we played them repeatedly. Doubtful they'd ever lay that type of ass-whipping on us again, but I think they'd hang a whole bunch of Ls on us.
 
They all also either lost in the first round, or didn't make the tournament.

My point wasn't that St Mary's isnt good, or that they aren't a bad matchup. They are good. They are a bad matchup. Their similarities to Wisconsin prove that. I was one of the few saying how brutal a matchup it was before the game was played. To be fair, my brutal call was more about the combination of St Marys AND UCLA, but it was because BOTH teams were rated higher than IU in both offensive and defensive efficiency.

So, I'm not questioning losing to them. Its all about getting a 50-12 run put on us. Its just difficult to comprehend how a team like St Mary's could do that. Gonzaga, Kansas, teams like that with overwhelming talent and skill...even that would be tough to swallow...St Mary's? Again, the only word I can find that makes any sense to me is "weird".
Yeah the 50-12 run was weird and was definitely a combination of mental/physical fatigue on top of IU lacking any kind of consistency throughout the year. Saw glimpses of it in the BTT, but IU all year lacked on court leadership that prevents something like that from happening. Doesn't hurt that St. Mary's played pretty much flawless until they called off the dogs.
 
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I would not be surprised at all if UCLA beats them.
that comment alone tells you how good St Marys and their team and system are: you wouldn't be surprised if the higher-rated West Coast powerhouse that has a higher rated bench players than St Marys, beats them? No, me neither. But I do think they're going to be motivated and give them a game and I won't be at all surprised of St Marys beats them.
 
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