Okay. I don't see that look on their faces, but our mileage varies. I don't agree with everything she's saying, but I agree with a lot of it.
None of that is really responsive to what we were talking about previously, but interesting enough video.
The Serious Election Day Thread
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None of that is really responsive to what we were talking about previously, but interesting enough video.
It would, but I think fractional reserve banking wouldn't survive in a sound money environment. Those banks would blow up and people would choose fully reserved banks.
None of that is really responsive to me saying that their go to market model and messaging is identity politics and woke and America hates that? The Dem strategist says exactly that - and you say it’s non-responsive.
Sorry buddy, if you’re playing some sort of 3D chess, I can’t go there with you. But otherwise you’re being either a) pedantic or b) a bald faced liar.
No sheets of ice? Booooo.Mojo Up Sports Complex – Mojo Up Your Game!
mojoupsportscomplex.com
A place like this?
Yeah I’ve played there. It’s the best I’ve ever seen.Grand Park. 10 mins away. Two indoor facilities in Carmel. One with alcohol.
The number of pregnant women living in red states who are in the middle of suffering failed miscarriages that medically require a D&C procedure, but are told to go home and bleed it out since we can't help you,
far exceeds the number of genetic males competing in female sports
The consequences are also much more severe.
far exceeds the number of genetic males competing in female sports
The consequences are also much more severe.
Speaking of soccer...Grand Park. 10 mins away. Two indoor facilities in Carmel. One with alcohol.
Successfully switched out 4 pairs of XS girls team shorts to S via laundry slight of hand without detection...so far.
I think they price gouge on the fountain drinks (always have) but the food when you bake in the preparation and all that (along with some profit margin) is likely pretty much on.
Wages haven't caught up to the on fire inflation we had at the beginning of the decade.
And 3UP a mere minutes away!Grand Park. 10 mins away. Two indoor facilities in Carmel. One with alcohol.
No, I agree with Bernie on very little. What I was agreeing to was the idea (his idea) that the democratic party has left behind the middle class, blue collar worker, and it should come as no surprise that they have therefore left the Dem party
Yeah, there are a bunch of amenities in the super suburb that is WestCarmFisherVille.Grand Park. 10 mins away. Two indoor facilities in Carmel. One with alcohol.
I'm not sure why you are calling me a liar, but I've been trying to actually have a conversation with you because I respect you a great deal. You just make it really difficult.
The last thing we were engaging on was about the loony left being deafeningly louder than the loony right where you tried to redefine what an institution is and your response was to link an 8 minute video that I watched because I was trying to engage with you and understand your point about the only institution that matters is universities.
I guess maybe you "weave".
Anyway, I think Dem messaging could be better. I don't see what you see in that clip, but whatever. I'm just a pedantic liar.
Those are mostly union jobs. Plus those giant spending bills cause inflation in those workers eyes. They want real jobs…not green jobs, not a few years worth of work jobs….etc.
I get it. All of the folks agreeing with Bernie think he is super smart when it comes to the diagnosis, but super dumb when it comes to the prescription. They want Democrats to become Republicans.
Humbly, I don't think that's what middle class, blue collar workers want and I think some Republicans here are making the same mistake that Democrats made after the last election.
Can you give me some examples of "real" jobs, not few years worth of work jobs?
I have an entire family of nailpounders. They won’t get any of the jobs out of infrastructure. Zero.
So, aren't union blue collar workers mostly males?
There are studies showing how the collapse of unions has lowered worker pay, including that of non-union members.
Recent research assessing the impact of unions on nonunion workers’ wages—sometimes referred to as “spillover effects”—finds an even larger impact of deunionization on wage inequality. When the share of workers who are union members is relatively high, as it was in 1979, wages of nonunion workers are higher. For example, had private-sector union density in 2013 remained at its 1979 level, weekly wages of nonunion men in the private sector would have been 5% higher, equivalent to an additional $2,704 in earnings for year-round workers; among those same workers but without a college education wages would be 8% higher, or $3,016 more per year (Rosenfeld, Denice, and Laird 2016; Denice and Rosenfeld 2018).6 Consequently, estimates of the impact of eroded collective bargaining on wage inequality that incorporate union spillover effects find a larger role of the impact of unions on wage inequality than do studies that focus on unionized workers alone. For instance, Western and Rosenfeld (2011, Table 2 and analyzed in Mishel et al. 2012, Table 4.38) find that the weakening of collective bargaining explains a third of the increase in wage inequality among men and a fifth of the rise of wage inequality among women over the 1973–2007 period. This research demonstrates that the erosion of collective bargaining has been the largest single factor driving a wedge between middle- and high-wage male workers, the primary feature of rising wage inequality among men (other than the pulling away of the top 1%).7
The enormous impact of eroded collective bargaining on wages
A major factor depressing wage growth for middle earners and driving the growth of wage inequality over the last four decades has been the erosion of collective bargaining. The share of workers covered by a collective bargaining agreement fell from 27.0% in 1979 to just 11.6% in 2019. Rebuilding...
www.epi.org
Boeing, UAW, and UPS, all came out really well in union negotiations in the last year. Other blue-collar workers should wonder why they aren't unionized too. We know the reason, one party has worked to kill of unions. Who does that benefit, blue-collar workers or the elites running the company?
Somehow they are able to sell it for 70% of the previous price.
The trend on wages vs. inflation are pretty solid right now though.
So, if other "nailpounders" get work out of infrastructure doesn't that drive up demand for "nailpounders"? Doesn't that make their jobs more valuable due to a shortage of "nailpounders" or open up non-infrastructure "nailpounder" jobs?
And it still doesn't answer the question, why did people WORKING on infrastructure, working with the UAW, vote against the party that supported those jobs in favor of the party that voted against infrastructure and hates unions.
Okay. Have they ever gotten jobs out of infrastructure? Are commercial construction jobs not "real"?
I disagree with the woman a bit. I think she's right that the way Dems talk about and to normal people is a turn off. But one of the main reasons they do that is because too many of them have bought into the underlying theory (see It isn't in schools thread) and believe that is the proper way to think and speak. I.e., it's about more than just trying to communicate your ideas in a commonsense way--many of their main ideas are that you need to speak that way.
That is, progressive identitarians (aka woke) are fighting the culture wars and want to fight them in this way. But what we are finding out is that a lot of people really don't like it and I think this election, in part, is signals that.
I think you, as an intelligent human, are misinterpreting her words. I believe she’s saying that communicating like that is absurd, because it’s not how anybody outside of bubbles communicates, nor does it add any value whatsoever to a more civilized society. Instead, it serves to alienate and flies in the face of common sense.
It would be worth seeing but my impression here is the work will go to the same mega outfits that already have work and already get the big jobs and already have staffing. Just keeps the fat fat
And I’m not discounting it bc we all need safe bridges etc. But I’d love to see the waste and abuse in that mega bill
Thanks for asking the clarification. I think Democrats greatly overreacted in Biden's election in thinking he had some sort of major mandate and it wasn't still just a 50/50 electorate where lots of people disagree with them.
I don't think we're in a hugely different place today and I see some evidence of Republicans thinking they have some sort of massive mandate. We're still a really very divided country where smart politicians play things closer to the center. It's an electorate tailor made for a candidate taking an approach like Bill Clinton back in the 90's.
That’s a tiny portion of blue collar jobs. You don’t need to speak to those workers directly and to some the mention of union jobs pisses them off. Mechanics, welders, non union manufacturing way bigger. The Dems get this so wrong. Hell I’m in a union and every single worker is threatening to pull dues because they have all switched parties. The Dems have failed.So, aren't union blue collar workers mostly males?
There are studies showing how the collapse of unions has lowered worker pay, including that of non-union members.
Recent research assessing the impact of unions on nonunion workers’ wages—sometimes referred to as “spillover effects”—finds an even larger impact of deunionization on wage inequality. When the share of workers who are union members is relatively high, as it was in 1979, wages of nonunion workers are higher. For example, had private-sector union density in 2013 remained at its 1979 level, weekly wages of nonunion men in the private sector would have been 5% higher, equivalent to an additional $2,704 in earnings for year-round workers; among those same workers but without a college education wages would be 8% higher, or $3,016 more per year (Rosenfeld, Denice, and Laird 2016; Denice and Rosenfeld 2018).6 Consequently, estimates of the impact of eroded collective bargaining on wage inequality that incorporate union spillover effects find a larger role of the impact of unions on wage inequality than do studies that focus on unionized workers alone. For instance, Western and Rosenfeld (2011, Table 2 and analyzed in Mishel et al. 2012, Table 4.38) find that the weakening of collective bargaining explains a third of the increase in wage inequality among men and a fifth of the rise of wage inequality among women over the 1973–2007 period. This research demonstrates that the erosion of collective bargaining has been the largest single factor driving a wedge between middle- and high-wage male workers, the primary feature of rising wage inequality among men (other than the pulling away of the top 1%).7
The enormous impact of eroded collective bargaining on wages
A major factor depressing wage growth for middle earners and driving the growth of wage inequality over the last four decades has been the erosion of collective bargaining. The share of workers covered by a collective bargaining agreement fell from 27.0% in 1979 to just 11.6% in 2019. Rebuilding...
Boeing, UAW, and UPS, all came out really well in union negotiations in the last year. Other blue-collar workers should wonder why they aren't unionized too. We know the reason, one party has worked to kill of unions. Who does that benefit, blue-collar workers or the elites running the company?
Maybe they just didn't vote. But even if they did, there are many reasons one might vote against a perceived economic interest. Each person has a different weight on different values and balances them differently.
But Scarborough was giving you one answer to that question. Another, nailpounders don't like being called deplorable, garbage, nazis, racist, misogynist, fascist. Another, they don't like the transgender stuff and see the Dem party as the party of kooks.
No, I’m talking about my original message, which was that the Dems go to market model is completely failed and out of touch with what anybody outside of extreme liberal bubbles wants to hear. And it betrays what it is they are actually good at - or what most of their original constituents think they are good at. They sound like elitist judges who look down from their ivory towers at the peasants of the country who lack pronouns after their names in email signatures and still *gasp* use terms like husband or wife and not Partner.I'm not sure why you are calling me a liar, but I've been trying to actually have a conversation with you because I respect you a great deal. You just make it really difficult.
The last thing we were engaging on was about the loony left being deafeningly louder than the loony right where you tried to redefine what an institution is and your response was to link an 8 minute video that I watched because I was trying to engage with you and understand your point about the only institution that matters is universities.
I guess maybe you "weave".
Anyway, I think Dem messaging could be better. I don't see what you see in that clip, but whatever. I'm just a pedantic liar.
She is saying that, but she makes it sound like if they just communicated their beliefs better, they'd win. I'm saying it is their underlying beliefs that make them talk like that so her idea wouldn't work.
This is my point, BadWakeRanger: many in the inner circle (especially the younger ones) sound like that because that's what they are; it's what they believe. They can't just talk in a commonsense way without giving up their underlying beliefs.
Speaking of cultural condescension…
Check out this exchange from a recent Bulwark podcast about Dems, cultural issues, and WWC voters. Wow - JV Last isn’t pulling any punches. It’s a hill he’ll clearly die on.
Tim Miller: You can't just tell the biggest demographic group in the country, non-college white people, that you don't really care what they think about cultural issues. It's just not a winner, especially with this electorate.
By the way, that non-college white group now includes non-college Hispanics too. They're being assimilated into the American experience.
I'm not saying that you throw trans people under the bus to come back and win elections, but there has to be an ability to speak the language culturally and to try. And they just haven't really tried. They'll say that they tried, they'll check this box, and they'll be a couple of lines in a speech.
But there still is a dominant feeling among that group that the Democrats look down on them, don't care about them, and is that unfair?
Jonathan V. Last: Shouldn't they be looked down on, though?
Miller: Maybe. I mean, sure. Sure.
Last: I'm sorry. I know this is unpopular, but if it is true that there were two gender reassignment surgeries for prisoners and yet these ads were wildly effective with those groups, then why shouldn't they be looked down on?
Miller: You live in a democracy.
Sarah Longwell: Well, yeah. Number one, we live in a democracy. But also because that ad is a stand-in, right?
The stand-in, the gender reassignment surgery, taxpayer-funded is a stand-in for all of the ways that people believe Democrats are culturally out of touch.
Miller: But if working class white people in rural America start voting like black people do, by share of vote, we're going to live in a MAGA autocracy for the rest of our lives. So just as a practical matter — maybe they deserve to be looked down on, maybe they have views that are gross, maybe they have views that are wrong, maybe they're swimming in disinformation.
But that's just the facts of life. And not trying to offer something to them is a mistake, as long as we're in this democratic environment that I guess we're in.
It’s going to be interesting to watch this debate unfold - particularly considering Miller’s point that working-class Hispanics are starting to vote more like working-class whites.
Non-union does have more jobs. But union workers tend to make more AND have better benefits.
Union workers are paid 11.2% more and have greater access to health insurance and paid sick days than their nonunion counterparts: Policymakers must strengthen workers’ ability to form unions, particularly during the coronavirus crisis
A new report by the Economic Policy Institute discusses the importance of unions and workers’ collective action in establishing an equitable economy, particularly during the coronavirus pandemic. The authors find that unionized workers earn on average 11.2% more in wages than nonunionized peers...
www.epi.org
There are drawbacks to unions. But consider the role of the modern corporation is to lower wages. We pay C-Suite types great bonuses for lowering labor costs. So does it make sense to throw away the only real advantage a worker has? The Republicans have said yes to that for over a generation. Workers should trust the elites more than their fellow workers. I am not sure how that fits into the anti-elite argument made by conservatives.
