So I still like Coach Miller and want him to succed

[crazed_hoosier2]

I love this quote from Glass, in light of the topic at hand:

“My view was that, given the circumstances of the last three seasons, that extending the contract was not a viable option," athletic director Fred Glass said. "It would send the wrong signal of what merited an extension at Indiana University."
​

Lynch had a year left. They gave him 3.

Hey Fred, do you still subscribe that “wrong signal” thing? Or is that only the case selectively?

 

[bang63]

so we can agree that Lynch was fired? Well, alrighty then.......

Or we could allow you to post "fake news" undisputed.

 

[frikkenfrakken]

This isn’t CYO we’re talking about, it’s P5 college basketball. How you wouldn’t expect players to be accountable is strange. Yes, benching and even, for some, a strong encouragement to move on if they’re unable or unwilling to adhere to the team demands and culture, is part of competing at that level. And it happens at every program, everywhere.

That's not what he said. He said we should clear the roster of the guys that aren't helpful. Is there a reason you keep taking things I say to other people and twisting them out of context to argue?

It is certainly within a coaches job description to punish kids for bad behavior. Miller does that. He suspended Green last year, and gave his starting job to Phin this year. Davis doesn't get much PT. Is Archie supposed to kick Green off the team for turnovers? Should he have kicked Hunter last year because of injuries? Sorry, Jerome. You aren't helpful to me now...so...go eat a dick.

Miller even did all that to Gelon. Got some bad press for IU doing it. He also apparently fired Ed Schilling. And...the "accountability" crowd says what we need is MOAR ACCOUNTABILITY! It's just code for "fire Archie." All because Miller can't turn Loyola Marymount into Virginia in 2.5 seasons. And, we are actually making progress, based on the data, every year. But still MOAR FIRINGS!

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

That's not what he said. He said we should clear the roster of the guys that aren't helpful. Is there a reason you keep taking things I say to other people and twisting them out of context to argue?

It is certainly within a coaches job description to punish kids for bad behavior. Miller does that. He suspended Green last year, and gave his starting job to Phin this year. Davis doesn't get much PT. Is Archie supposed to kick Green off the team for turnovers? Should he have kicked Hunter last year because of injuries? Sorry, Jerome. You aren't helpful to me now...so...go eat a dick.

Miller even did all that to Gelon. Got some bad press for IU doing it. He also apparently fired Ed Schilling. And...the "accountability" crowd says what we need is MOAR ACCOUNTABILITY! It's just code for "fire Archie." All because Miller can't turn Loyola Marymount into Virginia in 2.5 seasons. And, we are actually making progress, based on the data, every year. But still MOAR FIRINGS!

Turn Loyola Marymount into Virginia in 2.5 years? What alternative universe are you living in? We’re actually sitting here having conversations about retaining a coach after 3 seasons because....he made the tournament field!

Hardly Virginia, there. Maybe Virginia Tech.

 

[Birnk403]

That's not what he said. He said we should clear the roster of the guys that aren't helpful. Is there a reason you keep taking things I say to other people and twisting them out of context to argue?

It is certainly within a coaches job description to punish kids for bad behavior. Miller does that. He suspended Green last year, and gave his starting job to Phin this year. Davis doesn't get much PT. Is Archie supposed to kick Green off the team for turnovers? Should he have kicked Hunter last year because of injuries? Sorry, Jerome. You aren't helpful to me now...so...go eat a dick.

Miller even did all that to Gelon. Got some bad press for IU doing it. He also apparently fired Ed Schilling. And...the "accountability" crowd says what we need is MOAR ACCOUNTABILITY! It's just code for "fire Archie." All because Miller can't turn Loyola Marymount into Virginia in 2.5 seasons. And, we are actually making progress, based on the data, every year. But still MOAR FIRINGS!

Wait, so you would advocate keeping guys who aren’t helpful, even after multiple opportunities to be helpful followed by example after example of them not helping? In big time college sports, you need to be able to contribute (be helpful) or someone will take your spot.

 

[hondo314]

Turn Loyola Marymount into Virginia in 2.5 years? What alternative universe are you living in? We’re actually sitting here having conversations about retaining a coach after 3 seasons because....he made the tournament field!

Hardly Virginia, there. Maybe Virginia Tech.

We musta forgot the time IU went to the tourney 15 straight times right before we hired Archie...

but folks are just talking extremes. Should a program with IU’s resources make the tourney every year? In a vacuum, yes. As it was handed to Archie, eh.....

 

[twenty02]

And as I said to Aloha, the evidence favors my view — not yours. I wish it didn’t, but it does. It’s all right there before all our eyes. Just because there are people who either refuse to see it or refuse to be honest with themselves about it doesn’t make it go away.

Evidence? LOL. It's just a bunch of theories you've made up in your head.... that IU hasn't won because they aren't committed to winning.... or something. And we just need to bench more players and kick more players off the team, and really have a stern talking to Archie that he needs to win.... and win now.... by burning everything to the ground and starting over.... with a better mindset.... or something. Because he's not trying to win now hard enough. Try harder Arch! We're double dog serious now!

I'm done with this nonsense. It's pointless and stupid.

 

[go_iu]

Wait, so you would advocate keeping guys who aren’t helpful, even after multiple opportunities to be helpful followed by example after example of them not helping? In big time college sports, you need to be able to contribute (be helpful) of someone will take your spot.

Yes, exactly, but I think Archie only had the balls to do it in Gelon's case, where it was painfully obvious. I recall RMK publicly inviting almost the entire starting line up to leave in like 96-97. If they don't want to play or respect the uniform, they should go elsewhere. Nowadays it's even easier, because your not stripping them of their academic scholarship if they choose to stay but not play, so really there's absolutely no excuse for Archie to tolerate players he'd rather be rid of … again, it's coaching, recruiting, and roster management

 

[frikkenfrakken]

Turn Loyola Marymount into Virginia in 2.5 years? What alternative universe are you living in? We’re actually sitting here having conversations about retaining a coach after 3 seasons because....he made the tournament field!

Hardly Virginia, there. Maybe Virginia Tech.

Sorry, you misunderstood me. Miller can't take an all-offense defense doesn't matter roster and turn it into Virginia's defense first philosophy in 2.5 seasons. Bennett couldn't do it at Virginia either.

By the way, we are better than Virginia this year.

 

[go_iu]

We musta forgot the time IU went to the tourney 15 straight times right before we hired Archie...

but folks are just talking extremes. Should a program with IU’s resources make the tourney every year? In a vacuum, yes. As it was handed to Archie, eh.....

Crean was horrid, but he could recruit sometimes. I think a lot of people are hoping Archie can have the same turn around Crean did in year 4. There is however no Jordy, Watford, Zeller coming, there's a recruiting problem. It could be awful next year if TJD decides he's done. He's not ready, but he might decide G-League or playing overseas for $$$ is better than losing here.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

We musta forgot the time IU went to the tourney 15 straight times right before we hired Archie...

but folks are just talking extremes. Should a program with IU’s resources make the tourney every year? In a vacuum, yes. As it was handed to Archie, eh.....

I had no problem with him missing the tournament the first year.

I did and do have a problem with the low level of progress we’ve made throughout his tenure. Honestly, in hindsight, he probably should have trimmed the roster when he started out. But that’s water under the bridge.

 

[frikkenfrakken]

Wait, so you would advocate keeping guys who aren’t helpful, even after multiple opportunities to be helpful followed by example after example of them not helping? In big time college sports, you need to be able to contribute (be helpful) of someone will take your spot.

Yes. Very few people are helpful on day 1 of any endeavor. You have to let them grow into contributing. I suppose we should have just given Jerome a few practices to walk it off and then given his spot to someone else because he couldn't help. He's gotta be helpful or its time to get accounted...

 

[go_iu]

I had no problem with him missing the tournament the first year.

I did and do have a problem with the low level of progress we’ve made throughout his tenure. Honestly, in hindsight, he probably should have trimmed the roster when he started out. But that’s water under the bridge.

Agree, it's really been zero progress. It still looks like Crean's team and spiraling downward

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Evidence? LOL. It's just a bunch of theories you've made up in your head.... that IU hasn't won because they aren't committed to winning.... or something. And we just need to bench more players and kick more players off the team, and really have a stern talking to Archie that he needs to win.... and win now.... by burning everything to the ground and starting over.... with a better mindset.... or something. Because he's not trying to win now hard enough. Try harder Arch! We're double dog serious now!

I'm done with this nonsense. It's pointless and stupid.

I didn’t say that “he’s not trying hard enough to win.” You’re putting words in my mouth.

I don’t mind you or anybody else taking issue with anything I say. But just make sure it’s something I actually said.

I said we have a cultural problem. And I think it runs deeper than Archie. But it probably does have an impact on how he runs the team day-to-day. Either he doesn’t realize or believe that we have a culture problem or else he’s just not the kind of person who can or will undertake trying to change it.

But the point is, there are no consequences for failure. Not for him. Not for the assistants. Not for the players. And the general outlook that you and others profess here (and which I think is prevailing among IU brass) is why. It’s also why Crean was here as long as he was.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Agree, it's really been zero progress. It still looks like Crean's team and spiraling downward

I wouldn’t say “zero.” But it’s not nearly as much as we should expect — if we’re actually committed to being a winning program, anyway. That’s why I’ve come to believe that we aren’t. It’s the only explanation that makes sense.

 

[twenty02]

I didn’t say that “he’s not trying hard enough to win.” You’re putting words in my mouth.

I don’t mind you or anybody else taking issue with anything I say. But just make sure it’s something I actually said.

I said we have a cultural problem. And I think it runs deeper than Archie. But it probably does have an impact on how he runs the team day-to-day. Either he doesn’t realize or believe that we have a culture problem or else he’s just not the kind of person who can or will undertake trying to change it.

But the point is, there are no consequences for failure. Not for him. Not for the assistants. Not for the players. And the general outlook that you and others profess here (and which I think is prevailing among IU brass) is why. It’s also why Crean was here as long as he was.

And I say the idea there is a cultural problem is just a boogie man that you've invented to somehow explain IU's performance.

If winning was as easy as hanging motivational posters and firing coaches at will (or whatever the nebulous 'consequences' is supposed to mean, under your theory).... running a hugely successful major sports program should be fairly easy. Can't believe others haven't tried it.

 

[Birnk403]

Yes. Very few people are helpful on day 1 of any endeavor. You have to let them grow into contributing. I suppose we should have just given Jerome a few practices to walk it off and then given his spot to someone else because he couldn't help. He's gotta be helpful or its time to get accounted...

We’re way, way past Day One. And using Hunter as support for not doing anything with the roster is pretty insincere. No one is saying you should push out the kid who suffered a season ending injury that kept him from ever getting on the floor. But there are plenty of players who have had those opportunities and haven’t been able to contribute. How do you expect improvement if you don’t improve the roster?

And this goes on everywhere and has for decades, including at IU. Did you ever play sports? This wouldn’t be such a foreign concept had you done so.

 

[go_iu]

I wouldn’t say “zero.” But it’s not nearly as much as we should expect — if we’re actually committed to being a winning program, anyway. That’s why I’ve come to believe that we aren’t. It’s the only explanation that makes sense.

True, I've come to the conclusion we should just try to hire Matta and end this experiment with Mid-Major coaches. If he says no, why not bring Sampson back, I know many revile him, but in reality, what he did wouldn't even be a violation these days and what our idol RMK did surely still would. The man can coach and almost had us back.

 

[go_iu]

And I say the idea there is a cultural problem is just a boogie man that you've invented to somehow explain IU's performance.

If winning was as easy as hanging motivational posters and firing coaches at will (or whatever the nebulous 'consequences' is supposed to mean, under your theory).... running a hugely successful major sports program should be fairly easy. Can't believe others haven't tried it.

Well apparently, it's not that hard … there are like 25 ranked teams which we're not among, despite having a better record than many. That should tell us what objective viewers think of our team

 

[mcmurtry66]

And I say the idea there is a cultural problem is just a boogie man that you've invented to somehow explain IU's performance.

If winning was as easy as hanging motivational posters and firing coaches at will (or whatever the nebulous 'consequences' is supposed to mean, under your theory).... running a hugely successful major sports program should be fairly easy. Can't believe others haven't tried it.

What's vexing to many of us is that IU continues to underachieve despite having huge advantages. Support, history, conference, television, talent in state, money earmarked for recruiting, coaches salaries, etc. Winning isn't easy but not all schools are equal. We have major advantages yet underachieve. I'm starting to believe that our recipe for mediocrity is going the mid-major route in hiring and/or leaping for the guy who had one successful run. Hell Mike Davis made the national championship game. That one run may have been an anomaly and not the basis for promotion to a place like IU.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

And I say the idea there is a cultural problem is just a boogie man that you've invented to somehow explain IU's performance.

If winning was as easy as hanging motivational posters and firing coaches at will (or whatever the nebulous 'consequences' is supposed to mean, under your theory).... running a hugely successful major sports program should be fairly easy. Can't believe others haven't tried it.

It’s not.

You ever wonder how Butler has been able to not only elevate the stature of their program, but do a pretty good job keeping it healthy over a series of coaches?

It’s culture. Theirs is basically a mirror image of ours. We need to address it. And doing that is tougher than simply firing and hiring coaches.

As I said yesterday, the one glimmer of hope I have right now is that the new AD will get this and work to remodel our program’s culture.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

True, I've come to the conclusion we should just try to hire Matta and end this experiment with Mid-Major coaches. If he says no, why not bring Sampson back, I know many revile him, but in reality, what he did wouldn't even be a violation these days and what our idol RMK did surely still would. The man can coach and almost had us back.

Bring Sampson back? Well that’s not gonna happen.

 

[Birnk403]

And I say the idea there is a cultural problem is just a boogie man that you've invented to somehow explain IU's performance.

If winning was as easy as hanging motivational posters and firing coaches at will (or whatever the nebulous 'consequences' is supposed to mean, under your theory).... running a hugely successful major sports program should be fairly easy. Can't believe others haven't tried it.

So, what is the culture of the program? What are the expectations, both overall and among the players? How does the team hold each other accountable for how they play and prepare? Talk to any coach, manager or leader, where it all starts, and he or she will tell you that culture is always more important than scheme. Without it, it’s extremely difficult to have long term success.

 

[twenty02]

So, what is the culture of the program? What are the expectations, both overall and among the players? How does the team hold each other accountable for how they play and prepare? Talk to any coach, manager or leader, where it all starts, and he or she will tell you that culture is always more important than scheme. Without it, it’s extremely difficult to have long term success.

I listened to Tom Crean talk about culture for 9 years. Let's just say I've heard enough of that coach-speak for a lifetime. I'm not saying it's not an important thing.... but it's basically broad brush talking points said by people with nothing actually real to say.

 

[Birnk403]

I listened to Tom Crean talk about culture for 9 years. Let's just say I've heard enough of that coach-speak for a lifetime. I'm not saying it's not an important thing.... but it's basically broad brush talking points said by people with nothing actually real to say.

And it’s incredibly difficult to communicate what culture means, and how vital it is to success, to people who never competed in sports or who aren’t involved in any kind of a work setting involving multiple people. People who don’t consider it “real” nearly always lack those experiences, so it’s not surprising that they’re so unaware of what it means and how important it is to long term success. Crean talked often about it but was never able to implement a successful one but those coaches who can and do are the winners. Ask any of them and they’ll all say it.

 

[minneman]

IU fired Bill Mallory after 13 years in 96. Since then, 6 coaches have been at the helm of the football program for an average of 3.6 years, none more than five. (The current coach has been here 3). All have been fired except Hoeppner and Lynch who would have been had they chosen or been able to continue. I know its apples to oranges in terms of priorities, $$ invested, etc. However, what is common is that those coaches all answered to the same AD and administration....and all met the same end or would have.

There seems to be a different dynamic with the basketball coach. Maybe there should be.....but it can't go unnoticed.

So you want the basketball team to have the same level of success as the IU football team? That's crazy talk.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Evidence? LOL. It's just a bunch of theories you've made up in your head.... that IU hasn't won because they aren't committed to winning.... or something. And we just need to bench more players and kick more players off the team, and really have a stern talking to Archie that he needs to win.... and win now.... by burning everything to the ground and starting over.... with a better mindset.... or something. Because he's not trying to win now hard enough. Try harder Arch! We're double dog serious now!

I'm done with this nonsense. It's pointless and stupid.

We are not committed to winning because we have a compliance department and AD that is loathe to do the types of gray area things you need to do in order to be a consistent winner.

There was also a lack of commitment on the facilities side until the past decade as well. Paying big money to a coach is not necessarily a sign of commitment.

I am not sold on Miller. My expectation for this year was to make the tournament. That is still within reach. However, there is nothing about our returning roster or new players coming in that leads me to believe that we will be anything but a bubble type of team again in year 4. Is 20-10 type of seasons the expectation now? If not, at what point should we start to see something more than beating up on poor opponents in the preseason and then .500 ball in conference? Crean was in the Sweet 16 in year 4 and had the number one team for a time in year 5. He had a complete rebuild and is seen as a mediocre coach by most people here.

I just think that expectations become a moving bar for some people until enough is just enough.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

I listened to Tom Crean talk about culture for 9 years. Let's just say I've heard enough of that coach-speak for a lifetime. I'm not saying it's not an important thing.... but it's basically broad brush talking points said by people with nothing actually real to say.

Just because Crean talked about it without fixing it doesn’t mean it’s not a real thing and a real problem.

It’s a real thing and a real problem.

 

[bailey777]

Hard to imagine a week ago we were talking about moving into 2nd place and now we are back near the bottom. That maryland fiasco was the start of the so far free fall. We are what we are i guess.

 

[victorbear]

Evidence? LOL. It's just a bunch of theories you've made up in your head.... that IU hasn't won because they aren't committed to winning.... or something. And we just need to bench more players and kick more players off the team, and really have a stern talking to Archie that he needs to win.... and win now.... by burning everything to the ground and starting over.... with a better mindset.... or something. Because he's not trying to win now hard enough. Try harder Arch! We're double dog serious now!

I'm done with this nonsense. It's pointless and stupid.

Iu wants to win that we don’t is nonsense we are currently stuck like Alabama was before Saban was hired

 

[Vern Pain]

Iu wants to win that we don’t is nonsense we are currently stuck like Alabama was before Saban was hired

Not bad.

 

[Harpo Marxist]

So you want the basketball team to have the same level of success as the IU football team? That's crazy talk.

If that is what you take from my comments....maybe you should just do some yoga, slow down....,.read again. My point is not even about the basket ball team...its about how the leadership of the athletic dept and the administration, BOT,etc....take entirely different views toward success, or a lack thereof, between the two venues.

 

[jimmygoiu]

Wait, so you would advocate keeping guys who aren’t helpful, even after multiple opportunities to be helpful followed by example after example of them not helping? In big time college sports, you need to be able to contribute (be helpful) or someone will take your spot.

you really are an anti IU douchebag. (body of work)

 

[snarlcakes]

Sorry, you misunderstood me. Miller can't take an all-offense defense doesn't matter roster and turn it into Virginia's defense first philosophy in 2.5 seasons. Bennett couldn't do it at Virginia either.

By the way, we are better than Virginia this year.

Bennett had an elite defense at Virginia in his 3rd season. He also had an elite defense at Washington State in his 1st season as head coach (3rd season at the school).