Should we teach character in public schools?

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

This is a really interesting discussion that brings up a lot of fundamental questions about the role of govt, democratic practice, etc.

Google Podcasts is no longer available

podcasts.google.com

The first question is, should we try to teach or instill certain character traits in public school?

The second is, which traits?

The third is, how do we decide these questions in a constitutional republic?

And the underlying one that might moot the rest, can we even do it in a meaningful, intentional way?

As a follow up, are there ways our educational system is trying to do this that are unethical or harmful?

https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/restorative-circles-are-unethical-and-have-no-place-schools

 

[Lucy01]

This is a really interesting discussion that brings up a lot of fundamental questions about the role of govt, democratic practice, etc.

Google Podcasts is no longer available

podcasts.google.com

The first question is, should we try to teach or instill certain character traits in public school?9

The second is, which traits?

The third is, how do we decide these questions in a constitutional republic?

And the underlying one that might moot the rest, can we even do it in a meaningful, intentional way?

As a follow up, are their ways our educational system is trying to do this that are unethical or harmful:

https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/restorative-circles-are-unethical-and-have-no-place-schools

I don’t know if they taught character when I went to school, people said I was a character. I must be a natural.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Didn’t read the article yet, but I will. Absolutely, we need to teach character in the classroom and I think most schools have for years. My day It was called citizenship. Now we call it lifeskills. Such things as respect, responsibility, problem solving, patience, etc. I can’t imagine any of these would be controversial. They must be taught in schools because unfortunately many are not taught these skills at home.

 

[Indianaftw]

Didn’t read the article yet, but I will. Absolutely, we need to teach character in the classroom and I think most schools have for years. My day It was called citizenship. Now we call it lifeskills. Such things as respect, responsibility, problem solving, patience, etc. I can’t imagine any of these would be controversial. They must be taught in schools because unfortunately many are not taught these skills at home.

They taught character for years and the democrats removed it. It's called God and prayer.

 

[zeke4ahs]

They taught character for years and the democrats removed it. It's called God and prayer.

Lol. I never had God or prayers in my school.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Lol. I never had God or prayers in my school.

It shows.

 

[Circlejoe]

It shows.

Very Christian of you.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Very Christian of you.

If you truly understand what this means, then thank you sir.

 

[Circlejoe]

If you truly understand what this means, then thank you sir.

Exactly

 

[zeke4ahs]

It shows.

Nor did you, unless you went to a private school.

 

[Crayfish57]

Not did you, unless you went to a private school.

?????

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Not did you, unless you went to a private school.

I didn't have private school (unless you count the back of the shed). And I will still guarantee you, you had God, and kids praying in your school. I hope many were praying for you. I am.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

They taught character for years and the democrats removed it. It's called God and prayer.

it was always intended to be separate, you know… that separation of church and state concept?

kids don’t need to make believe any more than they already do.

 

[Indianaftw]

it was always intended to be separate, you know… that separation of church and state concept?

kids don’t need to make believe any more than they already do.

They make believe about human life and kill like it doesn't matter. It's sad.

 

[zeke4ahs]

I didn't have private school (unless you count the back of the shed). And I will still guarantee you, you had God, and kids praying in your school. I hope many were praying for you. I am.

Those kids can pray and have God in their schools now exactly as they did then.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Somehow I don’t think this is the conversation OP hoped to have. Will read article in the morning.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Those kids

It wasn't about the OP. It was about you. "THOSE KIDS" as you say, that finishes the conversation.

 

[zeke4ahs]

It wasn't about the OP. It was about you. "THOSE KIDS" as you say, that finishes the conversation.

Whatever you say. But maybe you should stick to topic?

 

[zeke4ahs]

I read the article, but I’m not listening to an hour long podcast. We did have circle time, but it was nothing like that. I mostly agree with that article, in that those aren’t conversations you should have with the whole classroom. Our circle time was generally if you’d like to share something and if not you’d choose to pass. Then we’d have a circle time about the lifeskills of the week. Talk about a time when you were proud of yourself for being responsible. Think of a way you can show more persistence and share.

 

[Crayfish57]

I read the article, but I’m not listening to an hour long podcast. We did have circle time, but it was nothing like that. I mostly agree with that article, in that those aren’t conversations you should have with the whole classroom. Our circle time was generally if you’d like to share something and if not you’d choose to pass. Then we’d have a circle time about the lifeskills of the week. Talk about a time when you were proud of yourself for being responsible. Think of a way you can show more persistence and share.

Sounds like you are confusing your therapy sessions to me. What grade do you teach again?

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

I read the article, but I’m not listening to an hour long podcast. We did have circle time, but it was nothing like that. I mostly agree with that article, in that those aren’t conversations you should have with the whole classroom. Our circle time was generally if you’d like to share something and if not you’d choose to pass. Then we’d have a circle time about the lifeskills of the week. Talk about a time when you were proud of yourself for being responsible. Think of a way you can show more persistence and share.

Zeke, It is very obvious that either your beliefs, or the way you present your beliefs, are totally not homogeneous to my beliefs, we just don't mix. However, I think I just received a message. It's not my place to agree/ disagree with you, it's only my place to listen to you and give you "audience".
That said, tell me to piss off.. I wouldn't blame you in the least. But I would appreciate the opportunity to hear more of your side of the (teaching) story. We may end up still being on opposite sides, but I promise to hear you out, and actually converse, instead of what I normally do.
I know what I do here isn't really adequate.

 

[TommyCracker]

They taught character for years and the democrats removed it. It's called God and prayer.

What should young Muslim or Jewish kids do while we're having forced prayer and a Christian based public school set up?

Can Jesus be his most probable skin tone or do we have to worship white Jesus?

Here's what an AI computer supposedly came up with. Does the Jesus in your church resemble this?

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

An "AI computer Supposedly came up with". Did you at least twinge just a little pasting that? It's safe to say that anyone who wasn't on the Real wives of Jersey, knows that he couldn't have been a cracker. This may have been an argument in the past... Not so much anymore. Time fixes errors.

 

[mcmurtry66]

What should young Muslim or Jewish kids do while we're having forced prayer and a Christian based public school set up?

Can Jesus be his most probable skin tone or do we have to worship white Jesus?

Here's what an AI computer supposedly came up with. Does the Jesus in your church resemble this?

View embedded media

Damn. That's the guy who runs my factory. Who knew!

 

[stollcpa]

Lol. I never had God or prayers in my school.

In most public schools years ago the only mention of God was in the pledge and sometimes a prayer before an event.

 

[IUCrazy2]

This is a really interesting discussion that brings up a lot of fundamental questions about the role of govt, democratic practice, etc.

Google Podcasts is no longer available

podcasts.google.com

The first question is, should we try to teach or instill certain character traits in public school?

The second is, which traits?

The third is, how do we decide these questions in a constitutional republic?

And the underlying one that might moot the rest, can we even do it in a meaningful, intentional way?

As a follow up, are there ways our educational system is trying to do this that are unethical or harmful?

https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/restorative-circles-are-unethical-and-have-no-place-schools

Hamilton Southeastern Schools (Fishers, IN) are going in on restorative justice next year...well, at least until we can hopefully wipe out the school board and send the superintendent and hopefully the DIE folks off to some other school to screw up after the next election. Things like that are the CRT adjacent types of nonsense that gets forced on schools. They wrap it up in nice euphemistic terms like "character development" so that parents believe it is the types of stuff Zeke mentioned up in her post (some of which I think we all did particularly in elementary school in some form or another).

Yes, some true character development and emotional regulation type of skills need learned in school, however, when you hear parents complaining about something that sounds like it would be rational to teach, please dig further. It isn't history or social skills people don't want taught.

 

[Indianaftw]

What should young Muslim or Jewish kids do while we're having forced prayer and a Christian based public school set up?

Can Jesus be his most probable skin tone or do we have to worship white Jesus?

Here's what an AI computer supposedly came up with. Does the Jesus in your church resemble this?

View embedded media

Do you need a lesson this morning? Here's one that you wont learn in a church, cracker.

work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Do you need help with that? I'll break it down if you need it.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

This is a really interesting discussion that brings up a lot of fundamental questions about the role of govt, democratic practice, etc.

Google Podcasts is no longer available

podcasts.google.com

The first question is, should we try to teach or instill certain character traits in public school?

The second is, which traits?

The third is, how do we decide these questions in a constitutional republic?

And the underlying one that might moot the rest, can we even do it in a meaningful, intentional way?

As a follow up, are there ways our educational system is trying to do this that are unethical or harmful?

https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/restorative-circles-are-unethical-and-have-no-place-schools

A lot of countries do it, and I think we can. There are values we can teach that are universal, tell the truth, take responsibility, respect others. Below lists Sweden but I think all the Nordic countries have some form of character education.

Values education - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ladoga]

it was always intended to be separate, you know… that separation of church and state concept?

kids don’t need to make believe any more than they already do.

Have you read the Northwest Ordinance? i'll go get the language.

"Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged." This enacted by the same body which established for ratification by the states the Bill of Rights. Could the same Congress have intended BOTH? Separation of church and state is a wholly judicial creation.

 

[iuwclurker]

George carlin weighs in:

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Have you read the Northwest Ordinance? i'll go get the language.

"Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged." This enacted by the same body which established for ratification by the states the Bill of Rights. Could the same Congress have intended BOTH? Separation of church and state is a wholly judicial creation.

Jefferson was never in the Judiciary.

Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists (June 1998) - Library of Congress Information Bulletin

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

www.loc.gov

Jefferson wasn't the first to use it, Roger Williams (the founder or Rhode Island) said it.

God, Government and Roger Williams' Big Idea

The Puritan minister originated a principle that remains contentious to this day—separation of church and state

www.smithsonianmag.com

James Madison was on board, "An August 15, 1789, entry in Madison's papers indicates he intended for the establishment clause to prevent the government imposition of religious beliefs on individuals. The entry says: "Mr. Madison said he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience. ..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separ...aid he apprehended the,their conscience. ..."

So no, it is NOT "a wholly judicial creation".

 

[Ladoga]

Jefferson was never in the Judiciary.

Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists (June 1998) - Library of Congress Information Bulletin

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

www.loc.gov

Jefferson wasn't the first to use it, Roger Williams (the founder or Rhode Island) said it.

God, Government and Roger Williams' Big Idea

The Puritan minister originated a principle that remains contentious to this day—separation of church and state

www.smithsonianmag.com

James Madison was on board, "An August 15, 1789, entry in Madison's papers indicates he intended for the establishment clause to prevent the government imposition of religious beliefs on individuals. The entry says: "Mr. Madison said he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience. ..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Madison said he apprehended the,their conscience. ..."

So no, it is NOT "a wholly judicial creation".

There were no sanctions for religious establishment until the Everson case in 1947. Practices and conduct of government prior to that - for 158 years - was ok. All of a sudden, without amendment of any statute nor the Constitution, the ratified words of the first amendment took on a new meaning. That new meaning was created by a decision of the Supreme Court, not the legislature. The power to amend the Constitution was taken up by a court - something that should NEVER happen and which the Framers never imagined. They imagined otherwise by providing, within the actual words of the Constitution two distinct methods for amendment, neither of them involving any decision nor action by any court.

i

 

[Marvin the Martian]

There were no sanctions for religious establishment until the Everson case in 1947. Practices and conduct of government prior to that - for 158 years - was ok. All of a sudden, without amendment of any statute nor the Constitution, the ratified words of the first amendment took on a new meaning. That new meaning was created by a decision of the Supreme Court, not the legislature. The power to amend the Constitution was taken up by a court - something that should NEVER happen and which the Framers never imagined. They imagined otherwise by providing, within the actual words of the Constitution two distinct methods for amendment, neither of them involving any decision nor action by any court.

i

Or the earlier courts got it wrong. Madison knew more than any human as to what was in the document.

 

[iuwclurker]

Jefferson was never in the Judiciary.

Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists (June 1998) - Library of Congress Information Bulletin

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

www.loc.gov

Jefferson wasn't the first to use it, Roger Williams (the founder or Rhode Island) said it.

God, Government and Roger Williams' Big Idea

The Puritan minister originated a principle that remains contentious to this day—separation of church and state

www.smithsonianmag.com

James Madison was on board, "An August 15, 1789, entry in Madison's papers indicates he intended for the establishment clause to prevent the government imposition of religious beliefs on individuals. The entry says: "Mr. Madison said he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience. ..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Madison said he apprehended the,their conscience. ..."

So no, it is NOT "a wholly judicial creation".

Thanks for that Smithsonian article on Roger Williams, Marvin.

 

[Ladoga]

Or the earlier courts got it wrong. Madison knew more than any human as to what was in the document

"...what was in the document." is and was to be found within the four corners of the document and within the plain meaning of the words of the document. No one amended the Constitution to change it in 1947 - nor at anytime prior to that. Those words should not ever be determined to mean anything different than those who ratified understood them to mean when they ratified it. The four corners rule is a good one for us to follow. Otherwise, objectors should take their case to the legislature and see if they can get laws changed or the Constitution amended. THAT is exactly what the Framers intended - not court made new meanings

 

[IUINSB]

They taught character for years and the democrats removed it. It's called God and prayer.

My schedule for school prayer.

Monday: The Lord's Prayer
Tuesday: Hail Mary
Wednesday: Muslim"s choice of prayer
Thursday: Buddhist's choice of prayer
Friday: Atheist's choice of prayer (yes it's a religion, just listen to most of them, more fervent than anyone.)

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Or the earlier courts got it wrong. Madison knew more than any human as to what was in the document.

Madison’s intent (or Jefferson’s or any one individual) alone isn’t relevant to legitimate legal interpretation. Originalism doesn’t rest on that (I think that’s what you’re driving at but could be wrong).

 

[Bowlmania]

My schedule for school prayer.

Monday: The Lord's Prayer
Tuesday: Hail Mary
Wednesday: Muslim"s choice of prayer
Thursday: Buddhist's choice of prayer
Friday: Atheist's choice of prayer (yes it's a religion, just listen to most of them, more fervent than anyone.)

What about Hinduism, Judaism and Confucianism??

And which version of The Lord's Prayer are you using? The Protestant one ("...for thine is the Kingdom, and the Power and the Glory") or the Catholic version that doesn't include that language?

 

[cosmickid]

They taught character for years and the democrats removed it. It's called God and prayer.

In my grade school on the West side of Indianapolis, we had what was called Weekday Religious Education. We'd walk to a trailer just off the official school grounds for an hour or so 2 or 3 days a week. I can't remember all the particulars, it was over 55 yrs ago, but I remember us marching over there. It was boring (rehash of Sunday school) but it got us out of class for an hour or so. For my 10 yr old self that was a positive...

There were a few kids who had excuses from their parents not to attend, and of course they were outcasts. Probably mostly Jewish, there weren't any Blacks to worry about offending. Same sort of ostracization occurred with the "Christmas Pageant" every year, where Jewish kids who were part of the choir or other groups who had a role in the program would skip those performances. I never understood why, but when you asked some caustic adult would reply with something like "Oh they don't believe in Christmas"...

I can only imagine how the tone of your comment would change if it was a "non-Christian God" and/or prayer we were talking about. People who as part of the majority never considered what it was like to be the folks who were subject to the imposition of their will, are in many cases the ones who scream and whine the loudest when minority views are given equal or at least representative sway.

I love all the "prayer in school" advocates who claim they wouldn't mind if it was an Islamic or other non-Christian prayer being presented. We know they're lying, just by how outraged people get over minor issues like headgear or the positive response to wacko preachers who advocate burning the Quran...

 

[TDHoosier]

Just make sure there is prayer in the home and that your kids have a solid foundation to offset some of the goofy that I believe is being taught in schools now. I can't remember if we had God in school directly but I do remember the mention of church and being taught the history of how America was founded. I also remember the pledge of allegiance, getting my ass whipped by the Principle if I misbehaved and being held accountable for my grades and the way I presented myself in class. I tried to teach my daughters if given the opportunity to have a ton of common sense over book knowledge take common sense 100 out of a 100.