I haven't seen anyone dispute that they get to choose their own government, but my little reading suggests the Ukranian public is not too happy with Mr. Zelensky right now who is an autocrat preventing democratic elections.Much of that was the Azov brigade which was destroyed in Mariupol.
We need a deal on Ukraine, but the Ukrainian people get to choose their government.
We know Stalin committed genocide against Ukraine, I get why they do not want to be part of Russia. That action resulted in a lot of Ukrainian siding with Germany, so we see the roots of your point. I don't condone Nazis, but Stalin wasn't materially better for many and probably worse for Ukraine.
How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine | HISTORY
Cruel efforts under Stalin to impose collectivism and tamp down Ukrainian nationalism left an estimated 3.9 million dead.www.history.com
Russia-Ukraine war has begun
- Thread starter TheOriginalHappyGoat
- Start date
Look at the article below, bolding mine:
In terms of territorial concessions, Ukraine was expected to cede Crimea and the Donbas region outright, while also accepting the ongoing occupation of areas then under Russian control until Moscow deemed that its conditions had been fully met. Kyiv would also have been forced to grant Russian the status of official state language and adopt a range of laws targeting Ukrainian religion, history, and national identity that harked back the russification policies of the Soviet and Tsarist empires
Putin’s 2022 ‘peace proposal’ was a blueprint for the destruction of Ukraine
New details of talks between Russia and Ukraine during spring 2022 confirm that Putin’s alleged peace proposal was in fact a call for unconditional surrender and a blueprint for the destruction of the Ukrainian state, writes Peter Dickinson.
www.atlanticcouncil.org
If we insist states along the Mexican border teach in English to kids who speak Spanish, is that a justification for Mexico to invade those states?
America is not Nato. Nato is not america. America is a member of nato, for now, but America is NOT NATO... Unless of course one wants to say that Nato is toothless without America. If that is your stance, then let NATO do what NAto does.... Without US intervention.
I've a good feeling that Marv wants his cake and be allowed to eat it as well. JUST MAYBE Trump Wasn't wrong to start with, yet the entire weight of the US government was staged to fight him...
****, they couldn't beat him, let alone a foreign power, with guns and shit.
Keep you ammo dry. You gonna need to use it against us other americans.
Count on it. We are ready for the find out portion of this.
It's odd that you all scream and shout out loud and instigate... While we set and wait. So who exactly is the instigator here? YOU are the instigator.
How about Dan who pretty much agrees with me entirely on this issue. Is he instigating by supporting Ukraine?
You talk out of both sides of your mouth. Dan does not.
At time's what you say, is legit. And then you prove that you are dyed in the wool lib using the talking points that are handed out. Dan hates that shit. You have serious lacerations on your male parts from straddling the fence. But you do say it in really elaborate, educated words, so I guess you have that going for you. I know BS when I see it. and I see it.
Does that answer your question?
I get it, you have a miserable life and want to make others miserable. It isn't going to work.
I am genuinely fairly moderate, I don't believe you Trotsky types in the right or left. Keep reading your Trotsky though, you make a useful pawn for somebody who wants someone who doesn't think.
What is Trotsky? Is that something that I may like? I swear, I've never heard that word before. Maybe you are more educated than I am am.. Wait, I know you are. But I have no idea what this Trotsky thing is.
My 2 years of college is more educated?
Trotsky was a member of the communists in the Russian Revolution. After Lenin died and Stalin started taking power, Trotsky fled to Mexico where he wrote until some emissaries from Stalin plunged an ice pick in his head.
Trotsky was a big believer that moderates were the evil because they prevented true revolution. So he actually believed eliminating moderates would setup the final showdown between capitalists and communists. He believed the ends do justify the means as long as the ends were a communist victory and the means really advanced that cause.
To him there were only 2 types, true believers and the enemy.
Well it's pretty clear that you learned a heck of a lot more in 2 years than I have ever, if that counts !
Trotsky sounds like a real peach. I'll figure out how to learn more about him. Thanks man.
Done and done, man. (It was a really good, gloatful day) I always think my ski's are 6" longer than they actually are.
But Marv does use some pretty sophisticated sounding words, right?
I'll need to do more research on the topic, but I don't think Crimea is a serious negotiation lever at this point for Ukraine. It's gone.Look at the article below, bolding mine:
In terms of territorial concessions, Ukraine was expected to cede Crimea and the Donbas region outright, while also accepting the ongoing occupation of areas then under Russian control until Moscow deemed that its conditions had been fully met. Kyiv would also have been forced to grant Russian the status of official state language and adopt a range of laws targeting Ukrainian religion, history, and national identity that harked back the russification policies of the Soviet and Tsarist empires
Putin’s 2022 ‘peace proposal’ was a blueprint for the destruction of Ukraine
New details of talks between Russia and Ukraine during spring 2022 confirm that Putin’s alleged peace proposal was in fact a call for unconditional surrender and a blueprint for the destruction of the Ukrainian state, writes Peter Dickinson.
The gist of my case is that Putin felt surrounded and threatened by NATO and he warned them on multiple occasions to not cross this red line.
It's an apple to orange comparison. Were there ever American schools on the border where the primary language was Spanish?
In numerous Soviet countries to this day there are schools including universities where Russian is the primary language of instruction.
It is a valid point, though not valid enough to attack Ukraine. There were two regions with major separatist movements that were serving as a buffer. We have obviously used military where we should not, Iraq, that doesn't excuse Russia.
I do have a very easy solution for Russia, develop a constitution that allows for regular free and fair elections and join the EU and NATO. They will be guaranteed their language, culture, and history every bit as much as France and Germany. It is a total win-win for everyone not named Putin.
He was chosen to represent Russia in their surrender to Germany in 1917. Germany announced they would keep all land they held, which he found unacceptable. He tried negotiating but they would not budge.Well it's pretty clear that you learned a heck of a lot more in 2 years than I have ever, if that counts !
Trotsky sounds like a real peach. I'll figure out how to learn more about him. Thanks man.
So he went unconventional, Germany could not fight a war with no enemy. So if he sent the army home, the Germans would have to give up and go home.
This stunned the Germans and worked amazingly well for 3 nanoseconds. With no Russian army, they just kept advancing. So he went back to the table and said Germany could have the line laid out in the last session. Germany corrected him and said they were keeping all they possessed now.
Just like the end of Korea, which also was pretty much keep what you hold, the war in Ukraine is going to run really hot the next 2 months.
The American Southwest used to literally be Mexico. I think that we need to get the conflict resolved but the reasoning you are putting forth is nonsense. The reason both the Russians and the Chinese find themselves surrounded by enemies isn't because of the US, it is because they are assholes who don't know how to use soft power correctly with their closest neighbors. We have our issues with Mexico and Canada but they aren't jumping on a train to join our enemies precisely because we have figured out a way to mostly get what we want while offering benefits in that relationship.
In the case of Europe, they cast a weary eye towards Russia because they only offer gas and threats. The Russians feel threatened because they view everyone else's motives through their lens. "I would be doing this so that I could eventually exert my will upon you, so that is what the West must be doing." No, the west has identified you as a feral dangerous dog who needs fenced into your own yard. We have no interest in going into your yard and some of your former pack-mates don't want to be inside the fence with a big old bully. You want out of the fence? Stop barking and biting at everyone.
Well Iraq is quite a distance from the US of A.
I haven't looked at the polls, but last I checked Putin was in the range of 80% with an independent pollster. I don't think there is any question he has the support of his populace.
The soviet union collapsed around 35 years ago. When was the southwest last part of Mexico?
Before we get into this further, I have a point for both of you... according to official US policy we only recognize Taiwan as part of China. And you are telling me that we aren't interfering in others internal affairs? That appears to be in strict contradiction with official government policy.
On Taiwan and China there is an unspoken part of that which changes the context AND our actions run counter to what the Communist Party believes that means. It is diplomatic double speak intended to avoid conflict. We aren't pushing the Taiwanese to unify, quite the opposite in fact.
And again, our "interference" in Taiwan is something they mostly want. They welcome it. Same as in Europe. Why? Because the alternatives are bully assholes they don't like. Are we are bully at times? Absolutely. The police can be bullies. Most of us would prefer order maintained by them as opposed to the mafia. There are a bunch of countries that are aligned with us that get annoyed with how we operate, perfect space to fill if they thought Russia and China would be useful partners. Yet neither of those countries have found a way to take advantage. There's a reason why that has nothing to do with the US.
I think we just have a different worldview. Sadly, I thought Trump was right with his "you think we are so innocent."
To my mind, we are not the world's policeman. I can understand if you are concerned about the Taiwanese chips. Otherwise, we can't afford to give a hoot about "protecting democracy" at this point. Financially, cannot afford it. And given Taiwan is internationally recognized as being part of China, I'm not even sure it would be appropriate for us to "protect democracy."
With respect to the Communist part. I think Americans need to take a deep inner look at our own pseudo capitalism. The amount of fiscal support provided during Covid was communism on steroids compared to China. In many ways China is cutthroat capitalist. The EV market being one example. It's an authoritarian country.
I'll make one further point. No one has been undermining the sanctions more than India with support from America and Europe. Our so called "ally". They've been keeping the Russian economy running full steam ahead even more than China has. Recently the #1 buyer of crude from Russia! Which is resold abroad to Europe and the US. If that's your "ally" then the whole fight against Russia is completely fraudulent. I won't even get into how India is decimating the IT industry and American wages nor the numerous lawsuits about caste discrimination inside US workplaces. But hey they are our "ally" and "democracy".
It is almost as if they are the I in the BRIC countries trying to counter the West
