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Russia-Ukraine war has begun

Aloha Hoosier said:
www.newsweek.com

Former NATO commander predicts how Putin's war in Ukraine will end

James Stavridis said on CNN on Saturday that Russia will end up with 20 percent of Ukraine.
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com
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If both sides agree, there is nothing wrong with that deal. If that comes out, good. Ukraine must be protected so Russia cannot take another bite in five years. NATO membership would be helpful for that. I imagine our immediate end of sanctions would be part of it.

But with North Korea now supplying troops, I am even less sure Russia will accept only what they have now. Especially since it appears an offensive to retake Kursk is coming (cue the North Koreans).
 
Marvin the Martian said:
If both sides agree, there is nothing wrong with that deal. If that comes out, good. Ukraine must be protected so Russia cannot take another bite in five years. NATO membership would be helpful for that. I imagine our immediate end of sanctions would be part of it.

But with North Korea now supplying troops, I am even less sure Russia will accept only what they have now. Especially since it appears an offensive to retake Kursk is coming (cue the North Koreans).
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Then Trump instantaneously removes the hand cuff that are placed on UAF use of long range weapons. Obvious that the pain russia in experiencing today is not enough to bring them to the table. Thus, a doubling or tripling of the pain must happen the very first minute Trump and approve it. Negotiate from strength not hope.
 
Marvin the Martian said:
If both sides agree, there is nothing wrong with that deal. If that comes out, good. Ukraine must be protected so Russia cannot take another bite in five years. NATO membership would be helpful for that. I imagine our immediate end of sanctions would be part of it.

But with North Korea now supplying troops, I am even less sure Russia will accept only what they have now. Especially since it appears an offensive to retake Kursk is coming (cue the North Koreans).
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I'm skeptical that the North Korean army is going to be very competent.
 
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Marvin the Martian said:
Speaking of North Koreans as bullet catchers:

www.forbes.com

In Chaotic Kursk, Russian Vehicles Piled With Troops Are Rolling Right Up To Ukrainian Tanks—And Getting Blasted At Point-Blank Range

‘We are very lucky that they do a lot of banzai attacks,’ a Ukrainian drone operator noted.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
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1950 Orc casualties yesterday. I wanted to post, but needed to wait for "an official" to post the damage. I want to find a gif of a "Russian Paratrooper". I am envisioning a drunk guy, running while pulling the string on one of those confettee things.

1950 ... Slava Ukraine
 
Marvin the Martian said:
A Leopard tank dispatches several Russian vehicles.

www.forbes.com

A Ukrainian Leopard 2 Tank Met A Russian Armored Column Head-On—And Wrecked It

‘Effective work just blows the heads off the enemies,’ the Ukrainian 33rd Mechanized Brigade crowed.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
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"Russian Pres. Vladimir Putin is determined to maximize Russian gains and minimize Ukrainian gains ahead of possible negotiations. The pace of Russian attacks has doubled or tripled in Kursk in recent days; there’s been an uptick in attacks around Kurakhove, too.

The Russians are going for broke—but the Ukrainians are, too. “Anyone who thinks Ukrainians will simply give up hasn’t been paying attention,” mused Tatarigami, the founder of the Ukrainian Frontelligence Insight analysis group."

Gonna be a lot of killin' between now and January.

I doubt the Ukrainians are going to agree to any kind of ceasefire and Putin is going to have to deal with energy prices going down. That's not good for him if he shoots his wad now.
 
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DANC said:
"Russian Pres. Vladimir Putin is determined to maximize Russian gains and minimize Ukrainian gains ahead of possible negotiations. The pace of Russian attacks has doubled or tripled in Kursk in recent days; there’s been an uptick in attacks around Kurakhove, too.

The Russians are going for broke—but the Ukrainians are, too. “Anyone who thinks Ukrainians will simply give up hasn’t been paying attention,” mused Tatarigami, the founder of the Ukrainian Frontelligence Insight analysis group."

Gonna be a lot of killin' between now and January.

I doubt the Ukrainians are going to agree to any kind of ceasefire and Putin is going to have to deal with energy prices going down. That's not good for him if he shoots his wad now.
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Russian troop losses have been either new records or in the top 10 of losses over the entire SMO. 3 days ago was 1950 in one days action.
 
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Joe_Hoopsier said:
So the people of those two regions scale up selling their men to the russian army to keep the bags of onions continuing. The women there that can't get their hands on bags of anti-depressants are loving this turn of events.
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Those are like the 2 poorest regions in Russia. Ethnic minorities. Buddhists. Sadly, throat signing is dying by the second. Ironically, I think a peace treaty is just about the only issue I think Trump is on the right track with. We've been completely bamboozled by Zelensky and his cronies since day 1. I'm shocked there are Trump voters in this thread who want more fighting and bloodshed.
 
toastedbread said:
Those are like the 2 poorest regions in Russia. Ethnic minorities. Buddhists. Sadly, throat signing is dying by the second. Ironically, I think a peace treaty is just about the only issue I think Trump is on the right track with. We've been completely bamboozled by Zelensky and his cronies since day 1. I'm shocked there are Trump voters in this thread who want more fighting and bloodshed.
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Both sides need it settled. The Ukrainians are out of men. The Russians have already occupied the Russian-speaking territories. I realize that farmland is attractive, but they'll end up with a restless, angry population to control the further they advance.

The US and NATO will arm the hell out of Ukraine regardless of whether Ukraine joins NATO. If Russia keeps the occupied lands Ukraine in NATO mat be acceptable given the alternatives.
 
mushroomgod_1 said:
Both sides need it settled. The Ukrainians are out of men. The Russians have already occupied the Russian-speaking territories. I realize that farmland is attractive, but they'll end up with a restless, angry population to control the further they advance.

The US and NATO will arm the hell out of Ukraine regardless of whether Ukraine joins NATO. If Russia keeps the occupied lands Ukraine in NATO mat be acceptable given the alternatives.
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Very soon, the US will authorize full range deployment of the arms that Ukraine has, and will be authorizing the sending of much more lethal and longer range.
Then there’s going to be more propaganda of Ukraine’s nuke achievement .
In parallel NK will be given a very strong, example driven, ultimatum.
Wind down of the SMO is about to happen. Russian Kremlin will collapse with 6 months to 1-1/2 yrs.
Shits about to get real. Finally!
 
Joe_Hoopsier said:
Very soon, the US will authorize full range deployment of the arms that Ukraine has, and will be authorizing the sending of much more lethal and longer range.
Then there’s going to be more propaganda of Ukraine’s nuke achievement .
In parallel NK will be given a very strong, example driven, ultimatum.
Wind down of the SMO is about to happen. Russian Kremlin will collapse with 6 months to 1-1/2 yrs.
Shits about to get real. Finally!
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Russian Kremlin collapse? Putin has never been more popular and the Russian economy is thriving. If I'm not mistaken it's one of the hottest economies in the world right now.
 
toastedbread said:
Russian Kremlin collapse? Putin has never been more popular and the Russian economy is thriving. If I'm not mistaken it's one of the hottest economies in the world right now.
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Putin is going to piss Trump off by not negotiating in good faith. Then we'll see how popular he is when Trump crashes energy prices and the restrictions on long-range weaponry is lifted.
 
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DANC said:
Putin is going to piss Trump off by not negotiating in good faith. Then we'll see how popular he is when Trump crashes energy prices.
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Just wait until Trump hands Putin a picture of his front door. "I know where you are, and I can hit it in 3 minutes, any time of the day. All I have to do is say go. DO YOU want me to say go?"
 
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Joe_Hoopsier said:
Just wait until Trump hands Putin a picture of his front door. "I know where you are, and I can hit it in 3 minutes, any time of the day. All I have to do is say go. DO YOU want me to say go?"
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I'll tell you what would freak Xi and Putin out - if Trump said something like "You know those UAPs everyone's talking about? Well, they're not unidentified......".
 
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DANC said:
Putin is going to piss Trump off by not negotiating in good faith. Then we'll see how popular he is when Trump crashes energy prices and the restrictions on long-range weaponry is lifted.
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We probably don't see eye to eye on Russia. That's ok. My opinion is that the US and NATO were responsible for instigating and goading Putin. Putin had very clear redlines that were crossed. We did not negotiate in good faith. To me it's no different than if Putin was threatening the US via Mexico. I doubt the American public would tolerate it. Russia is surrounded by NATO on all sides.

There was also an ongoing ethnic cleansing of Russians and the Russian language. Banning Russian books, radio stations, etc.

We are doing the same threatening behavior with China right now in the Pacific imo. We need to mind our own business and not meddle in others backyards. You can't bark and threaten others then get angry when they've had enough and punch back.
 
toastedbread said:
We probably don't see eye to eye on Russia. That's ok. My opinion is that the US and NATO were responsible for instigating and goading Putin. Putin had very clear redlines that were crossed. We did not negotiate in good faith. To me it's no different than if Putin was threatening the US via Mexico. I doubt the American public would tolerate it. Russia is surrounded by NATO on all sides.

There was also an ongoing ethnic cleansing of Russians and the Russian language. Banning Russian books, radio stations, etc.

We are doing the same threatening behavior with China right now in the Pacific imo. We need to mind our own business and not meddle in others backyards. You can't bark and threaten others then get angry when they've had enough and punch back.
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How many countries with nuclear weapons has NATO ever attacked?
 
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Marvin the Martian said:
How many countries with nuclear weapons has NATO ever attacked?
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I don't follow. ?? How many non NATO countries have nuclear weapons?

To me Ukraine was firmly in the Russian sphere and their clear national interest. My view is all of this started with the western organized orange revolution. All Russia asked is that Ukraine remain neutral.
 
toastedbread said:
We probably don't see eye to eye on Russia. That's ok. My opinion is that the US and NATO were responsible for instigating and goading Putin. Putin had very clear redlines that were crossed. We did not negotiate in good faith. To me it's no different than if Putin was threatening the US via Mexico. I doubt the American public would tolerate it. Russia is surrounded by NATO on all sides.

There was also an ongoing ethnic cleansing of Russians and the Russian language. Banning Russian books, radio stations, etc.

We are doing the same threatening behavior with China right now in the Pacific imo. We need to mind our own business and not meddle in others backyards. You can't bark and threaten others then get angry when they've had enough and punch back.
Click to expand...
We got another one here that is sucking up Russian propaganda.
 
toastedbread said:
I don't follow. ?? How many non NATO countries have nuclear weapons?

To me Ukraine was firmly in the Russian sphere and their clear national interest. My view is all of this started with the western organized orange revolution. All Russia asked is that Ukraine remain neutral.
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North Korea has nukes and a country we do not like, we never attacked them. Pakistan is a country with nukes and is often at cross purposes with the West, including assisting OBL, and other than a very precise surgical strike in OBL, no attacks

Russia and China both have nukes, no attacks on either.

NATO was not going to join Ukraine in attacking Russia. First, history has not been kind to western nations attacking Russia. The chart below shows it. Second, we are smart enough to know NATO troops enter Russia and most western cities will evaporate.

We played a big role in Ukraine giving Russia their nukes. As such we sort of owe Ukraine our support in not being a Russian vassal state unless they choose to be.

 
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Marvin the Martian said:
After the war started. Countries at war do that. Do you think German and Japanese music was popular in the US in the 40s?

www.google.com

Ukraine to ban music by some Russians in media and public spaces

Ukraine's parliament also voted to ban the import of books from Russia and Belarus.
www.google.com www.google.com
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There were many actions taken prior to the most recent conflict. I don't have a dog in the fight but you can Google if you choose to. What you don't realize is that there are many Ukrainian nationals who don't speak Ukrainian. It's understandable why they may feel threatened.
 
Marvin the Martian said:
North Korea has nukes and a country we do not like, we never attacked them. Pakistan is a country with nukes and is often at cross purposes with the West, including assisting OBL, and other than a very precise surgical strike in OBL, no attacks

Russia and China both have nukes, no attacks on either.

NATO was not going to join Ukraine in attacking Russia. First, history has not been kind to western nations attacking Russia. The chart below shows it. Second, we are smart enough to know NATO troops enter Russia and most western cities will evaporate.

We played a big role in Ukraine giving Russia their nukes. As such we sort of owe Ukraine our support in not being a Russian vassal state unless they choose to be.

Click to expand...
Prior to the war Norway, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia all border Russia. How many NATO countries border China and Pakistan?

All Putin asked was that Ukraine remain neutral.
 
toastedbread said:
As Curt C says Google is your friend. It is illegal to play Russian music in public. That's the definition of cultural genocide.
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After the fall of the USSR Russia and the US pledged to support Ukraine’s sovereignty and security. Russia has invaded twice (Crimea and the current war) instead. Yet you blame Ukraine.
 
toastedbread said:
There were many actions taken prior to the most recent conflict. I don't have a dog in the fight but you can Google if you choose to. What you don't realize is that there are many Ukrainian nationals who don't speak Ukrainian. It's understandable why they may feel threatened.
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They might. But how does it materially differ than Hitler's demands that Sudetenland and Dansk be returned because ethnic Germans were being harassed?
 
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Marvin the Martian said:
They might. But how does it materially differ than Hitler's demands that Sudetenland and Dansk be returned because ethnic Germans were being harassed?
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I'm not a WW2 scholar so I can't comment on that. But clearly what Ukraine did to Russian speaking Ukrainians would only serve to inflame tensions. I can tell you that in all of my travels Ukraine was one of the only countries I personally experienced racism. I experienced no such racism in Russia. There are also organized elements of the Ukrainian armed forces who fight with nazi insignia on their uniforms.
 
toastedbread said:
I'm not a WW2 scholar so I can't comment on that. But clearly what Ukraine did to Russian speaking Ukrainians would only serve to inflame tensions. I can tell you that in all of my travels Ukraine was one of the only countries I personally experienced racism. I experienced no such racism in Russia. There are also organized elements of the Ukrainian armed forces who fight with nazi insignia on their uniforms.
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Much of that was the Azov brigade which was destroyed in Mariupol.

We need a deal on Ukraine, but the Ukrainian people get to choose their government.

We know Stalin committed genocide against Ukraine, I get why they do not want to be part of Russia. That action resulted in a lot of Ukrainian siding with Germany, so we see the roots of your point. I don't condone Nazis, but Stalin wasn't materially better for many and probably worse for Ukraine.

www.history.com

How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine | HISTORY

Cruel efforts under Stalin to impose collectivism and tamp down Ukrainian nationalism left an estimated 3.9 million dead.
www.history.com www.history.com
 
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