Protesting the national anthem

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I would gladly trade the weekend's conversation for one CNN (Fox would be better) town hall discussion on discrimination in America today. We often choose to believe what makes us feel comfortable. I believe some of our conservative friends are in that bubble, things aren't perfect but they aren't very bad. I think they can be jarred from that bubble. That isn't happening, and sadly you, me, and our similarly minded friends are a decided minority on the issue. We have to move people from A to B, and kneeling does not seem likely to pierce the comfort bubble.

There is still a race problem in America. Unless Bull Connor helps out again, we need something else to jar reality. Bizarrely enough, Charlottesville did not do that. If Charlottesville did not, kneeling will not.

All that said, I want someone to hire Kap.that team will gain my support.

Maybe kneeling isn't the best way to get people from A to B, but the people who are really genuinely viscerally offended by the kneeling aren't at A, and they aren't ever moving to B. They are at what one might call A', and the only thing to be done with them is to wait for them to die off.

I guess what I'm saying is this: polls show America pretty well divided on the anthem thing, but I doubt most of them actually care all that much. So, to me, even if kneeling doesn't accomplish much more than keeping the conversation alive, I'm cool with that, because I think the actual cost is very small.

 

[hoosboot]

Hmmm what has changed except more division amongst our society?

I don't think you have been paying enough attention.

In Cleveland, it has produced important dialogue and bridge building. In, DC, it started important conversations. That's because there are some adults leading the way those places and moments, which helps, particularly when juxtaposed with the lack of leadership coming from the White House.

 

[toastedbread]

@Marvin the Martian @TheOriginalHappyGoat @hoosboot @zeke4ahs

I spoke to a Spanish girl from the Canary Islands tonight, and somehow the national anthem/flag wrapping was brought up. She told me in no uncertain terms that "only fascists" keep flags at home. And that the national anthem is rarely played. That's a European perspective, which I believe is widely held across Europe.

 

[iuwclurker1]

I would gladly trade the weekend's conversation for one CNN (Fox would be better) town hall discussion on discrimination in America today. We often choose to believe what makes us feel comfortable. I believe some of our conservative friends are in that bubble, things aren't perfect but they aren't very bad. I think they can be jarred from that bubble. That isn't happening, and sadly you, me, and our similarly minded friends are a decided minority on the issue. We have to move people from A to B, and kneeling does not seem likely to pierce the comfort bubble.

There is still a race problem in America. Unless Bull Connor helps out again, we need something else to jar reality. Bizarrely enough, Charlottesville did not do that. If Charlottesville did not, kneeling will not.

All that said, I want someone to hire Kap.that team will gain my support.

Patience. Societal and cultural shifts take time. Meanwhile, people who were previously reticent are becoming emboldened. Very few NFL players were willing to take a stand until Trump disgraced the Office again. There is a trickle down effect. Your average Jane and Joes will feel emboldened.

In terms of voting, Blacks and Hispanics voted in fewer numbers for Hillary. Expect that to change. They now see clearly that Republicans don't give a ffiard. (That's not identity politics, that's hard, cold facts.)

 

[iuwclurker1]

Unfortunately I think he has a point. I was at B-Dubs yesterday watching football with some friends and I heard a lot of conversation about this. Some didn't have a clue what it was about. Many claimed it was a protest against Trump which is sorta true and few mentioned Black Lives Matter at all which is suppose to be the cause. Many were clearly angry with the protesters. Heard a lot of "f**k them" and stuff like that and it wasn't just from the white people. I'm a supporter of the BLM cause of course but my opinion is that these protests aren't much help in changing any minds and could be counterproductive. I'm afraid this will help Trump too. Seems like a lot of the crazy chit he does helps him.

The truth always trumps lies in the end. Trump lies. Those who say kneelers hate the Flag or the National Anthem are lying. Those who are trying to divide are liars.

Here's some truth. Colin Kaepernick kneeled/sat and listened quietly during the Nation Anthem. That is respecting the National Anthem. Period. What it's not respecting is the status quo of standing for the NA. Who wants the status quo right now? Conservatives. By definition. (In fact, Trump is pushing for the status quo of yesteryear, but that's another story.) So conservatives want the status quo that brought us Trump as POTUS. Better than Hillary, right? Merely reinforces the point that the status quo is a disaster.

Our Founding Fathers started with certain basic ideas and ideals and created a status quo called the US Constitution. Those basic ideas were to create a nation of the people and for the people. All the people. The Founding Fathers understood that society advances and built into the Constitution ways of changing the status quo. The most basic status quo was and is Male White Power. As with any power, as long as it's fair to all, it's accepted by all. Unfortunately in American History, it's rarely been fair to all, so many people have attempted to change that status quo. Some peacefully, some not.

MLK, BLM, and Colin Kaepernick are examples of peaceful attempts. What Kaep did in kneeling was not disrespect the NA but choose an alternate form of respecting the National Anthem. He refused to accept the status quo of standing for the National Anthem, not to protest the National Anthem but to protest the status quo.

All intelligent conservatives know this. Those who misconstrue it do so deliberately and maliciously in their misguided attempts to preserve their status quo.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

They can sit, they can stand, they can not come out. The thing that they apparently cannot do is realize how totally counterproductive it is to have multimillionaires who play a child's game in mega-stadiums built on the taxes of the very people who are most likely to be offended by them not standing and then think that they are somehow helping the cause.

Trump is an idiot savant. I do not really think he is clever enough to do this on purpose but he basically baited these guys into doing the very thing that is going to further entrench his base against them and their political wishes. And we are not talking racists here, we are talking the people who do have a genuine respect for the country and the sacrifices they believe that flag stands for. You are not going to get their support by disrespecting something they hold dear whether you have the right to do the disrespecting or not. And you certainly are picking the wrong spokespeople for oppression in America when you pick guys who are basically living out the dream of every sports fan in the country. Rosa Parks was effective because she was an everyday citizen who was tired and just wanted a damn seat on the bus like anyone else. If she normally got driven around in a limo and decided to hop on the bus to make a point, it is magnitudes of levels less effective.

This is the attitude that makes absolutely no sense. The old “These guys are millionaires, how are they oppressed” argument is complete and total bullshit. These guys weren’t born millionaires. A lot of these guys grew up in rough neighborhoods where a lot of people don’t make it out. A select few make it out because they can create music, can catch a ball, can throw a ball, can hit a ball, or can outrun everyone else. Are they suddenly supposed to forget about how they or their friends have been treated by police over the years? Are they supposed to suddenly forget about how the criminal justice system as a whole is biased against them? If these players grew up with these experiences and/or knew people that did, then I think these players have a duty to kneel at these games (or whatever they feel they need to do) because now they’re in a position in which they have a voice that can be heard. Now they can take actions and have opinions that matter to people. It’s just so ignorant when people pretty much argue “Man, you’re a rich black guy, what could you possibly have to complain about?”

 

[TheVegasHoosier]

I've never heard that before so I checked it out and it is false that this started in 2009 because the military paid for it. See Snopes which says:

Players always had the option of standing on the sidelines during the national anthem, and there is no evidence that "paid patriotism" initiatives begun in 2009 required them to do so.

Is your objection over the year it started or claiming it didn't happen at all?

It clearly happened.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...nt-on-paid-patriotism-at-sporting-events.html

 

[TheVegasHoosier]

This is the attitude that makes absolutely no sense. The old “These guys are millionaires, how are they oppressed” argument is complete and total bullshit. These guys weren’t born millionaires. A lot of these guys grew up in rough neighborhoods where a lot of people don’t make it out. A select few make it out because they can create music, can catch a ball, can throw a ball, can hit a ball, or can outrun everyone else. Are they suddenly supposed to forget about how they or their friends have been treated by police over the years? Are they supposed to suddenly forget about how the criminal justice system as a whole is biased against them? If these players grew up with these experiences and/or knew people that did, then I think these players have a duty to kneel at these games (or whatever they feel they need to do) because now they’re in a position in which they have a voice that can be heard. Now they can take actions and have opinions that matter to people. It’s just so ignorant when people pretty much argue “Man, you’re a rich black guy, what could you possibly have to complain about?”

No kidding.

So, according to the Right, if a black person works his butt off and gets rich being an athlete, he's "ungrateful" if he complains about anything.

However, if a white person works his butt off and gets rich at business and complains about anything, it's his RIGHT/DUTY to complain.

 

[hoosboot]

No kidding.

So, according to the Right, if a black person works his butt off and gets rich being an athlete, he's "ungrateful" if he complains about anything.

However, if a white person works his butt off and gets rich at business and complains about anything, it's his RIGHT/DUTY to complain.

Dude...you've got it all wrong. A black person who works his/her butt off and gets rich is welcome to complain as long as they complain about high taxes stifling the altruistic job creators.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

I don't think you have been paying enough attention.

In Cleveland, it has produced important dialogue and bridge building. In, DC, it started important conversations. That's because there are some adults leading the way those places and moments, which helps, particularly when juxtaposed with the lack of leadership coming from the White House.

So police shootings have stopped and retaliation against police has stopped? Chicago looks the same to me.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Jesus... Now we have the players and teams chastising players that believe in standing

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Jesus... Now we have the players and teams chastising players that believe in standing

View embedded media

Jesus....you should read the articles and watch the videos that you post. It was nothing like how you labeled it.

 

[meridian]

 

[twenty02]

I'd invite those who have voiced support of "kneeling" during the playing of the NAtional Anthem to name - list, perhaps - specifically why the "kneeling" is occurring and also please advise how, whatever the complaint may be, as you list them, these matters came to be a current hot issue when a month or so ago, nothing like this happened except Kapernick's "kneeling".

So, set Kapernick aside and pray tell what is/are the grievance(s) as you see them.

It wasn't an issue.....it was not in the news this season that I had seen....beyond Kapernick not getting picked up by any team.

It wasn't until our esteemed leader needed some positive reinforcement to feel better about his barren legislative success record, so he defaulted to using vulgar language at a political rally to describe NFL players.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Dale Hansen with WFAA Dallas has made national news for some brilliant segments in the past. This one is his best yet. It's only three minutes long, and well worth a watch.

http://deadspin.com/dallas-sportscaster-on-nfl-players-taking-a-knee-all-1818769991

 

[hoosboot]

So police shootings have stopped and retaliation against police has stopped? Chicago looks the same to me.

Oh...I thought I was responding to what you actually posted,

"Hmmm what has changed except more division amongst our society?"

and was just providing examples of positives changes and less division to answer the words you typed. Who knew what you really meant was,

"Hmmm who waved pixie dust and magically made over 200 years of racial strife go away?"

Your intent is duly noted. Nobody is waving magic pixie dust, but there are some adults trying to have substantive conversations to bring about some positive changes. Kudos to them.

And I was in Chicago just last week. It was awesome.

 

[Noodle]

@Marvin the Martian @TheOriginalHappyGoat @hoosboot @zeke4ahs

I spoke to a Spanish girl from the Canary Islands tonight, and somehow the national anthem/flag wrapping was brought up. She told me in no uncertain terms that "only fascists" keep flags at home. And that the national anthem is rarely played. That's a European perspective, which I believe is widely held across Europe.

Yeah, she's obviously not from Catalonia in Spain. In Barcelona last Spring I would guess that about 1/3 or more of the homes had the Catalan flag in the window or elsewhere.
Then again, the Catalans probably do see the Spanish flag as a symbol of fascism right now.

 

[IU40IU]

I for one hope these protests continue and trickle over into the NBA, MLB (A's player knelt last night), NHL, and even to the college ranks. It's awesome continuing to watch how the irony of it all is lost on those who continue to criticize the protests as a sign of disrespecting the flag, etc. I even heard a serviceman on the news this morning claim that he was offended but that it was ok for them to protest..........if done in the privacy of their own homes. Uuuuuhhhh. what?

I feel like sports programs have approached and handled the topic much better than the CNN's, FOX's of the worlds.

 

[RBB89]

I for one hope these protests continue and trickle over into the NBA, MLB (A's player knelt last night), NHL, and even to the college ranks. It's awesome continuing to watch how the irony of it all is lost on those who continue to criticize the protests as a sign of disrespecting the flag, etc. I even heard a serviceman on the news this morning claim that he was offended but that it was ok for them to protest..........if done in the privacy of their own homes. Uuuuuhhhh. what?

I feel like sports programs have approached and handled the topic much better than the CNN's, FOX's of the worlds.

My favorite thing is watching all these morons at games scream and curse and yell at the players for disrespecting the flag and the anthem...during the anthem.

 

[Fro]

I feel like sports programs have approached and handled the topic much better than the CNN's, FOX's of the worlds.

Even with sports talk radio trolls and idiots like Skip Bayless on TV, sports journalism is way better than cable news networks.

 

[IU40IU]

My favorite thing is watching all these morons at games scream and curse and yell at the players for disrespecting the flag and the anthem...during the anthem.

I can't like this enough

 

[MrBing]

Is your objection over the year it started or claiming it didn't happen at all?

It clearly happened.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...nt-on-paid-patriotism-at-sporting-events.html

I'm only saying that your statement that "they only had the players come out for it around '09 after the military PAID THEM TO DO IT to help recruitment" is false. Snopes calls that false because there is no evidence of it. The part about the military paying the NFL later for patriotic programming is true and it says that many teams were doing it anyway without any payment from the military. Sounds like a military contracting screw up but it's not like that would be the first time.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

I for one hope these protests continue and trickle over into the NBA, MLB (A's player knelt last night), NHL, and even to the college ranks. It's awesome continuing to watch how the irony of it all is lost on those who continue to criticize the protests as a sign of disrespecting the flag, etc. I even heard a serviceman on the news this morning claim that he was offended but that it was ok for them to protest..........if done in the privacy of their own homes. Uuuuuhhhh. what?

I feel like sports programs have approached and handled the topic much better than the CNN's, FOX's of the worlds.

That’s like when I hear people say “I ain’t got no problem with gays, just don’t do nothing gay in front of me”.

 

[IU40IU]

That’s like when I hear people say “I ain’t got no problem with gays, just don’t do nothing gay in front of me”.

Honestly, I was floored when I heard him say it. He was on Channel 4 local news in Indy. Absolutely floored.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I for one hope these protests continue and trickle over into the NBA, MLB (A's player knelt last night), NHL, and even to the college ranks. It's awesome continuing to watch how the irony of it all is lost on those who continue to criticize the protests as a sign of disrespecting the flag, etc. I even heard a serviceman on the news this morning claim that he was offended but that it was ok for them to protest..........if done in the privacy of their own homes. Uuuuuhhhh. what?

I feel like sports programs have approached and handled the topic much better than the CNN's, FOX's of the worlds.

That serviceman either didn’t understand the question or is not of sufficient intelligence to have been selected to answer the question on TV.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I for one hope these protests continue and trickle over into the NBA, MLB (A's player knelt last night), NHL, and even to the college ranks. It's awesome continuing to watch how the irony of it all is lost on those who continue to criticize the protests as a sign of disrespecting the flag, etc. I even heard a serviceman on the news this morning claim that he was offended but that it was ok for them to protest..........if done in the privacy of their own homes. Uuuuuhhhh. what?

I feel like sports programs have approached and handled the topic much better than the CNN's, FOX's of the worlds.

So I take it that you like Donald Trump as your President.

 

[IU40IU]

So I take it that you like Donald Trump as your President.

lol

 

[IUCrazy2]

lol

Laugh all you want. If you want Trump to be defeated, the last thing you want to happen is what you posted.

 

[Rockfish1]

Laugh all you want. If you want Trump to be defeated, the last thing you want to happen is what you posted.

Sadly, I think it's correct that butthurt, racially resentful white people are more likely to act out stupidly if they see uppity black people kneeling during the national anthem. This is more of that economic insecurity I've heard so much about.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

And I was in Chicago just last week. It was awesome.

Lulz. You were on the right side of town.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I think Bob Costas presented a great viewpoint on the issue.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Lulz. You were on the right side of town.

So are most people who visit there. What’s your point?

 

[TheVegasHoosier]

Dale Hansen with WFAA Dallas has made national news for some brilliant segments in the past. This one is his best yet. It's only three minutes long, and well worth a watch.

http://deadspin.com/dallas-sportscaster-on-nfl-players-taking-a-knee-all-1818769991

Bravo.

 

[TheVegasHoosier]

My favorite thing is watching all these morons at games scream and curse and yell at the players for disrespecting the flag and the anthem...during the anthem.

Not only that, they booed the Cowboys when they knelt before the anthem was played and flag was displayed.....which proves they are liars saying it's all about "disrespecting the flag/anthem."

 

[IUCrazy2]

Sadly, I think it's correct that butthurt, racially resentful white people are more likely to act out stupidly if they see uppity black people kneeling during the national anthem. This is more of that economic insecurity I've heard so much about.

Race does play into some of that yes, but there are a bunch of other factors at play there as well.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Race does play into some of that yes, but there are a bunch of other factors at play there as well.

Chief among them being the inability to think critically and to separate fact from fiction.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Chief among them being the inability to think critically and to separate fact from fiction.

So annoying that you guys think your opinion is always right, particularly on matters like this. You do not see the manner of the protest as any big deal because of your set of values. Some people do. That does not mean they are imbeciles who are incapable of thinking critically. It means they do not agree with your view. And on this, there is only opinion. No one has the facts on their side because this is all feelings.

One could say it is equally dumb to think kneeling for a song is causing any change, particularly when the majority of guys I heard interviewed about it were completely incapable of explaining why they were kneeling in the first place...other than Trump.

 

[hoosboot]

Lulz. You were on the right side of town.

Please do tell. Do you know why I was there, too? LMK if my project is a go, K?

I love Chicago...the whole city, so all sides of town are the right side to me.

 

[hoosboot]

So annoying that you guys think your opinion is always right, particularly on matters like this. You do not see the manner of the protest as any big deal because of your set of values. Some people do. That does not mean they are imbeciles who are incapable of thinking critically. It means they do not agree with your view. And on this, there is only opinion. No one has the facts on their side because this is all feelings.

One could say it is equally dumb to think kneeling for a song is causing any change, particularly when the majority of guys I heard interviewed about it were completely incapable of explaining why they were kneeling in the first place...other than Trump.

The issue the players are raising is an important one to many people I am close with, so I'm trying to understand your point of view. Are you saying that there is no issue, no problem, no injustice one would protest against that would merit silently kneeling during the playing of the national anthem? If a player kneeled in prayer to protest our country's laws in regard to abortion, would you feel equally offended? If (as a ridiculous hypothetical) soldiers were grabbing children from elementary schools for specialty breeding and organ harvesting, would you feel that kneeling for the national anthem in protest would still be unacceptable? I understand why some aren't converted in their thinking by these protests, but I struggle to full understand the thinking behind those taking great offense to the protests so I'd appreciate your insights.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

So annoying that you guys think your opinion is always right, particularly on matters like this. You do not see the manner of the protest as any big deal because of your set of values. Some people do. That does not mean they are imbeciles who are incapable of thinking critically. It means they do not agree with your view. And on this, there is only opinion. No one has the facts on their side because this is all feelings.

One could say it is equally dumb to think kneeling for a song is causing any change, particularly when the majority of guys I heard interviewed about it were completely incapable of explaining why they were kneeling in the first place...other than Trump.

You don’t know how I think. I’ve said it 100 times here and I’ll say it again: their protest doesn’t make sense to me. It doesn’t make sense for players that aren’t from a city, only reside in the city for 5 months a year, to be protesting a non-national problem (or at least hasn’t been proven to be). It doesn’t make sense.

What I’m referring to as stupid and the inability to think critically is how easy it is for these know-nothings to adopt a switched narrative that is fed down their throats. The national anthem honors our country, as a whole, not the military (however did we survive until the War of 1812 without an anthem honoring the military!!!) Protesting during the anthem does not disparage the military, period. Anybody who believe it does is a certified idiot of the highest degree.

Also, it is very stupid to throw out the “these millionaires” line. Virtually none of these guys were born into wealth or even into the middle class. To think that their newfound wealth precludes their ability to speak up on injustices they may have personally experienced in this past is also stupid to the highest degree.

So, sorry @IUCrazy2, I would almost be on the same side of the Trumpers on this issue but their reasons for being against it (as touted by Trump and his state run media) are as stupid as stupid gets.