We won't shackle them and jab them. We can order them to be vaccinated and if they refuse they are disobeying a lawful order and that will be the basis for discharge. I think they won't be worse than general discharges.
OT - Since this Site Seems to Have a Hyperabundance of Medical/Constitutional Experts...
- Thread starter rikki-tikka-tava
- Start date
Reinfection of vaccinated individuals and said spread amongst those vaccinated. We were told this wouldn't happen and if it did, it would be very rare. This is not the case. Also led to believe that if vaccinated, you could not spread it to others and in the event you did, it would be very rare. Not true. I believe it was Fauci who told us masks were not necessary or effective in mitigating virus spread early in the outbreak last spring (I believe it was Fauci. memory may be off). Of course this statement / video is no longer anywhere to be found online or I would share it.
Then we are told that you need to wear masks and they are effective. It appears that masks being worn by the general public have little to no impact on reducing / mitigating the spread of the virus. Regardless of being indoors or not. I currently know more people who are getting Covid that have been vaccinated than I do who have not. Here is Fauci less than 90 days ago on masks and risk of reinfection. Keep in mind as this interview takes place, the Delta variant has arrived in other parts of the world 5 months earlier (see Yale article).
www.yalemedicine.org
Then we are told that you need to wear masks and they are effective. It appears that masks being worn by the general public have little to no impact on reducing / mitigating the spread of the virus. Regardless of being indoors or not. I currently know more people who are getting Covid that have been vaccinated than I do who have not. Here is Fauci less than 90 days ago on masks and risk of reinfection. Keep in mind as this interview takes place, the Delta variant has arrived in other parts of the world 5 months earlier (see Yale article).
5 Things To Know About the Delta Variant
Delta was a highly contagious SARS-CoV-2 virus strain that was first identified in India, and also circulated in the United States and other countries. The vaccines have proven to be highly effective against Delta, but anyone who is unvaccinated is at risk for infection by the variant.
www.yalemedicine.org
So is your standard that whoever is telling us these things have to be perfect in their understanding at the outset?Reinfection of vaccinated individuals and said spread amongst those vaccinated. We were told this wouldn't happen and if it did, it would be very rare. This is not the case. Also led to believe that if vaccinated, you could not spread it to others and in the event you did, it would be very rare. Not true. I believe it was Fauci who told us masks were not necessary or effective in mitigating virus spread early in the outbreak last spring (I believe it was Fauci. memory may be off). Of course this statement / video is no longer anywhere to be found online or I would share it.
Then we are told that you need to wear masks and they are effective. It appears that masks being worn by the general public have little to no impact on reducing / mitigating the spread of the virus. Regardless of being indoors or not. I currently know more people who are getting Covid that have been vaccinated than I do who have not. Here is Fauci less than 90 days ago on masks and risk of reinfection. Keep in mind as this interview takes place, the Delta variant has arrived in other parts of the world 5 months earlier (see Yale article).
5 Things To Know About the Delta Variant
Delta was a highly contagious SARS-CoV-2 virus strain that was first identified in India, and also circulated in the United States and other countries. The vaccines have proven to be highly effective against Delta, but anyone who is unvaccinated is at risk for infection by the variant.
Your last line about the Delta variant needs some additional clarification because leaving it at just that seems to be painting a picture slanted in the direction you're wanting it to go instead of the full picture. The first case of the Delta variant was rumored to have been discovered in December in the UK, yes; however, there were 0 cases in the United States through all of the spring, low overall case volumes and only 1.3% of the population had the variant in May when the CDC made those changes.Reinfection of vaccinated individuals and said spread amongst those vaccinated. We were told this wouldn't happen and if it did, it would be very rare. This is not the case. Also led to believe that if vaccinated, you could not spread it to others and in the event you did, it would be very rare. Not true. I believe it was Fauci who told us masks were not necessary or effective in mitigating virus spread early in the outbreak last spring (I believe it was Fauci. memory may be off). Of course this statement / video is no longer anywhere to be found online or I would share it.
Then we are told that you need to wear masks and they are effective. It appears that masks being worn by the general public have little to no impact on reducing / mitigating the spread of the virus. Regardless of being indoors or not. I currently know more people who are getting Covid that have been vaccinated than I do who have not. Here is Fauci less than 90 days ago on masks and risk of reinfection. Keep in mind as this interview takes place, the Delta variant has arrived in other parts of the world 5 months earlier (see Yale article).
5 Things To Know About the Delta Variant
Delta was a highly contagious SARS-CoV-2 virus strain that was first identified in India, and also circulated in the United States and other countries. The vaccines have proven to be highly effective against Delta, but anyone who is unvaccinated is at risk for infection by the variant.
To that, the relaxing of the rules on the masks were put in place because the expectation was that society as a whole would've been more receptive to the idea of getting vaccinated. The entire country aside from children, could've been vaccinated prior to July but a large portion of society chose not to which combined with the Delta variant taking off required the CDC to pivot. At some point we have to sit back and be logical about this.
Also, please don't quote any Robert F Kennedy Jr. articles as a source of viable information. ha
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I’ll tell you one thing. Here in Florida, if we were a foreign nation, we’d be experiencing a travel ban by the US. That’s what selfishness, ignorance and not loving your neighbor has gotten us.
In addition, your post makes several unsupported assertions:Reinfection of vaccinated individuals and said spread amongst those vaccinated. We were told this wouldn't happen and if it did, it would be very rare. This is not the case. Also led to believe that if vaccinated, you could not spread it to others and in the event you did, it would be very rare. Not true. I believe it was Fauci who told us masks were not necessary or effective in mitigating virus spread early in the outbreak last spring (I believe it was Fauci. memory may be off). Of course this statement / video is no longer anywhere to be found online or I would share it.
Then we are told that you need to wear masks and they are effective. It appears that masks being worn by the general public have little to no impact on reducing / mitigating the spread of the virus. Regardless of being indoors or not. I currently know more people who are getting Covid that have been vaccinated than I do who have not. Here is Fauci less than 90 days ago on masks and risk of reinfection. Keep in mind as this interview takes place, the Delta variant has arrived in other parts of the world 5 months earlier (see Yale article).
5 Things To Know About the Delta Variant
Delta was a highly contagious SARS-CoV-2 virus strain that was first identified in India, and also circulated in the United States and other countries. The vaccines have proven to be highly effective against Delta, but anyone who is unvaccinated is at risk for infection by the variant.
(1) Reinfection of vaccinated individuals and said spread amongst those vaccinated. We were told this wouldn't happen and if it did, it would be very rare. This is not the case.
Seems to me this is very rare, even with the Delta variant. The Delta variant is making prior statements less supportable, but that's a case of changed circumstances here in the United States. Here's a WebMD article: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210726/breakthrough-cases-rising-with-delta-heres-what-that-means.
(2) Also led to believe that if vaccinated, you could not spread it to others and in the event you did, it would be very rare. Not true.
This was true with COVID variants until the Delta variant took hold in the US.
(3) I believe it was Fauci who told us masks were not necessary or effective in mitigating virus spread early in the outbreak last spring (I believe it was Fauci. memory may be off). Of course this statement / video is no longer anywhere to be found online or I would share it.
The operative sentence here appears to be "memory may be off." I recall masks being recommended . . . and MrsSope made several for our family out of flannel material for their protection.
(4) I currently know more people who are getting Covid that have been vaccinated than I do who have not.
Are you hanging around folks who have more susceptibility to COVID? What vaccine did each of them receive? As I understand it, the J&J vaccine has a lower effectiveness against the Delta variant. What are their symptoms? Is anybody hospitalized? Close to dying?
(5) Here is Fauci less than 90 days ago on masks and risk of reinfection. Keep in mind as this interview takes place, the Delta variant has arrived in other parts of the world 5 months earlier (see Yale article).
See YOTHN's response above. He said what I was going to say, and said it better than I could.
No. Not at all. However, I do expect our elected officials and leading infectious disease expert to not provide absolutes and later change position. I am ok with them not knowing and saying such or simply saying this is where we are today and it's evolving and likely will change.
I have yet to meet one vaccinated person who has tested positive for COVID. Mind you I went with a large group to Jamaica over the end of June when the Delta was starting to spread rapidly and not a single vaccinated soul acquired the disease. I had a wedding with well over 100 people just 2 weeks ago and again, not a single vaccinated person has had any symptoms. My wife works as a home health nurse and is around COVID patients every day, yet still....nothing.
I'm not saying I have to see it or know someone to believe it because that would be ridiculous but one would surmise with these large upticks we would begin seeing that at some point. Much in the same way we started knowing lots of people who had the disease as it spread throughout the country in large numbers.
Understood . . .
. . . that said, guidance that comes across as mealy-mouthed or equivocal can sow confusion . . . public officials are in a damned-if they-do, damned-if-they-don't circumstance . . . they can't win unless they're perfect.
I get that you would want that but you can't really expect absolutes on unknowns.
Even so, I think the worst term ever brought into politics was "flip flopper". Ugh. When that term became a blemish on ones record it then forced people to make a decision and regardless of what information came out down the road, they had to find a way to stick by their original decision or get mocked. I have considerably more respect for someone who is willing to utilize just-in-time critical thinking on decisions and alter their beliefs than I would have for someone who takes pride in defending decisions that have since gone sour. We are all human and as long as you are making the best decision based on the information on hand at that time, what more can you ask for?
An unknown virus and variants are a bad analogy but if a politician is constantly making bad decisions then that needs to be taken into account. But one shouldn't be critical of someone who changes their mind on a topic. You know?
Being "right" once forever . . . instead of being correct continuously . . . I never understood it either.
I could not agree more with your last statement of being logical. That, at many times, seems to have been thrown out the window. That being said, call it expectations. For Fauci or any other person as the leading infectious disease person in our country and arguably, at least politically, the world, he is rolling the dice making the statement he did with knowledge of the variant. I am not saying he made the wrong decision in making the statements that he did when he did, but he did so knowing full well the possibility of what has transpired. At the time of this interview, Delta had been in India for awhile and was exploding. I would think that if I am in Fauci's chair, I am hesitant to make the statements he made with the knowledge of what is occurring in India and the UI. Hindsight is always 20/20 and easy for me to play MMQ. I am not attempting to do that. For the sake of argument, I'll say that Fauci is doing his best and in the best interest of anyone listening.
For me personally, at this point and looking back, I am hesitant to believe anything that anyone says and come onto boards like this, read articles online, listen to CDC, Fauci, etc and gather information and perspective and then apply to my own real life experience and then, as you stated, apply commonsense.
I agree. No one is perfect, but we are all accountable to what we say and do. Or at least I feel that way and hold myself to the same standard.
I posted an article earlier on breakout cases in Iceland which are now occurring in the US. Here is a local article.
Raleigh councilman with COVID-19: I'm glad I got my shot
Raleigh City Council member Jonathan Melton is spreading the word about the effectiveness of the coronavirus shot even after he got COVID-19 despite being fully vaccinated.
www.wral.com
I travel for my job every single week and have been since June of last year. I am in airports. ubers. Bars. Restaurants. Closed door meetings. Recently (2 weeks ago) attended a convention with more than 1,500 people. No masks. On day 2 of the three day event, a positive case was reported of a convention attendee. At the conclusion of the event, a small meeting of 20 people was held. I was one of the attendees. It was held in a room of adequate size for 20 people. Everyone sat at the same tables each day. Ate breakfast, lunch and dinner. Shook hands. I personally shook hands with two individuals as I had not met them before. Both of these individuals developed symptoms and were tested and confirmed positive. Both individuals had been fully vaccinated. A third person, who was not a meeting attendee, but met with them outside the meeting, also go covid. He also had been fully vaccinated. So, in the past 15+ months, I cannot tell you how many people I have interacted with. I could check my hotel app and tell you number of trips and nights stayed, but just know I've been traveling and doing my normal routine (from a travel and wining and dining / entertaining perspective) just as I was pre-covid but only under whatever new rules are in place since covid has taken place.
Sope........I appreciate everything you are saying and I am not going to retort a retort with a retort. But, thank you for engaging with me in a civil manner without calling me names or attacking me. What I have witnessed on this board in my interactions is vicious attacks toward others who introduce opposing views. I understand how strongheld beliefs everyone has. And I respect it. I have read statement on this board making absolute claims such as "if everyone had gotten the vaccine, none of this would happen". I am paraphrasing, but that was the essential message. There is substantial evidence not only being published, but also occurring before our very eyes, that refutes this or at a minimum, puts this claim in serious doubt or in a position to be challenged. Believe it or not, I have no agenda in posting what I am posting nor trying to cause people undo stress or harm or attack anyone. But selfishly, I gain a far deeper understanding of this virus and what's occurring throughout our communities by interacting and hearing all points being made. Including yours and I sincerely appreciate you sharing your views and providing links to information to help us all learn more. Despite some of our "heated" interactions previously, I hold no ill will toward you. Particularly because all of this interaction is taking place on a free basketball forum with a ton of people of which I have no clue who they are. So, that must be taken into account not just with covid, but everything on this board. Cheers.
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Absolutely you hold them accountable. But you can't use revisionist history or Monday Morning QB a decision with information you have now that wasn't there at that time. So I place accountability on the decisions made at that time with the information that was available to them at that time. What I don't say is, he changed his mind therefore he lacks accountability. An argument could be made to the contrary.
Thank you for the kind words, John.
BTW, we've not tried the "if everyone had gotten the vaccine, none of this would have happened" option. I am convinced that statement is absolutely true because there would be far fewer folks infected, and those who are infected wouldn't be as sick. Plus history of vaccine usage supports this notion in other contexts.
The CDC is making decisions based on information known at that current time. Unfortunately for a new infectious disease there are so many underlying factors that can change at any given point that what is viable today could no longer be viable next month due to mutations and changes in patterns. So the decision as of today being to mask up seems to make the most sense. Much in the same way of unmasking back in May seemed to make the most sense at that time. Now, the CDC did specify that those who were unvaccinated should still maintain masks but that advice was not heeded which brings us to where we are today.
The point being, there are a so many factors that go into where this pandemic is today and where it will be tomorrow that if the country actually followed those CDC guidelines, they likely wouldn't have needed to alter them as much as they seem to be. I mean truthfully they could just say, wear masks and never change that theory and inevitably they would always be right.
It makes sense if you believe masks are effective. I respect that you believe that and to be honest, they may very well be. From what I can gather and have experienced, I do not see them being highly effective. I certainly do not believe they are effective enough to warrant a mandate. Effective being a subjective term.
No, I apologize, that wasn't the point I was going for but I can see how that came across that way. Using your logic, if they kept the mask mandate, you believe the cases still would've gone up as prevalently as they have (or more)?
I certainly do not think they added to the numbers or caused the numbers to go up. Not at all. However, I am skeptical that they deter the spread of the virus in an impactful and meaningful way. Impactful and meaningful of course are subjective. But yes, I do believe they would have gone up at the rate they did or very close to the rate they did with a mandate.
Technically, if there is an impact on the spread or one's ability to contract it, I believe it's minimal which is to say, less than 5% effectiveness. Again, simply my own opinion here and just throwing a number out there. And I only say 5% to respect everyone who feels they are effective. At the end of the day, I believe it's immeasurable and if measurable, there are too many variables with it's effectiveness. Is it worn correctly? Has it been used over and over? Is it the right type of mask so on and so on. In short, I don't believe it's measurable on it's ability to curtail contracting or spreading the virus.
So, by the CDC or anyone else saying it's effective, I will agree with that. If taken literally, it's a true statement. Technically so long as at least one person who wears a mask does not contract or spread the virus as a result of the mask, you could say it's effective. However, if 5 or fewer people out of 100 have effectiveness, my interpretation of that is that it's ineffective or at least low enough to not mandate it and make it optional.
Got any data regarding that scenario? If not, you're just spitballing . . . which we have too much of these days.
Hard data is the currency for this discussion. Without it . . . .
Even if it's the case that masks are of minimal value, apparent that even a/all minimal contribution(s) to reducing transmission are needed. Hospitalizations in some states are exceeding previous peak levels, medical facilities/staff are being overwhelmed, and people are going to start dying because there simply aren't enough ICUs to go around. DeSantis, Abbott and Cruz are behaving like turds.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/10/coronavirus-covid-live-updates-us/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/10/coronavirus-covid-live-updates-us/
Sope......I do not disagree. And I said the 5% figure was coming out of left field. This is the first study I found regarding masks. Look at this. We are both gaining in knowledge. According to this study, the FFE (Fitted Filtration Efficiency) of the most common masks range from 26.5% to 79%. The most popular being the white / blue procedure mask at 38.5%.
EPA Researchers Test Effectiveness of Face Masks, Disinfection Methods Against COVID-19 | US EPA
EPA scientists are applying their expertise in aerosol and decontamination research to better understand mask effectiveness, as well as methods for disinfecting personal protective equipment for the public, healthcare workers, and other essential workers.
Ain't nobody done an FFE study on the two layered, flannel/cotton t-shirt material masks with copper nose pieces and tie straps that MrsSope produced.Sope......I do not disagree. And I said the 5% figure was coming out of left field. This is the first study I found regarding masks. Look at this. We are both gaining in knowledge. According to this study, the FFE (Fitted Filtration Efficiency) of the most common masks range from 26.5% to 79%. The most popular being the white / blue procedure mask at 38.5%.
EPA Researchers Test Effectiveness of Face Masks, Disinfection Methods Against COVID-19 | US EPA
EPA scientists are applying their expertise in aerosol and decontamination research to better understand mask effectiveness, as well as methods for disinfecting personal protective equipment for the public, healthcare workers, and other essential workers.www.epa.gov
I'd trust those over an N-95 mask.
Libs only want to allow "freedom of choice" for policies like murdering babies and illegal immigration. Otherwise it's regulate, restrict, and denigrate.
^^^^ Virtue Signalling at its finest ^^^^
Wow, you sound incredibly informed.
Any other brilliant one liners that have unabated vitriol but zero validity?Wow, you sound incredibly informed.
lol @ zero validity...pay attention
So assisted living places are starting to close for visitors again due to Covid. There are an awful lot of people who just won’t have the will to go through this again. And my guess is many of the infections are coming from aides refusing to get vaccinated. All of this is so very sad and so very predictable.
Of course, you have the other side of the coin. How many in facilities have died due to the isolation which brings on depression?
My family is convinced that Mom died not because she had CoVid but because of the CoVid induced lock down. I know another family in the same facility who's loved one died and they are convinced as well.
Now, before anyone asks, there is no hard medical facts that the isolation ended those two lives but....
Talk about a damn if they, damned if they don't! The facilities are in an impossible position.
So sorry to hear about your mother. That’s awful.
Ha...this is exactly what I was going to post. Don't worry,he won't listen,and he won't concede that it's factual,even if it's obvious to anyone with a brain.
That’s for sure. I think they need to insist staff is vaccinated, but I know it’s hard to keep help in those places.
Great video. This guy is great and love his demeanor and approach. Hopefully many watch both videos. Thank you for sharing.
as opposed to not getting vaccinated and being a Petrie dish for the next variant. "My body, my choice". Except when you're a woman.
