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Obama speaks to National Prayer Breakfast

Threadjack - The whole "Who's a Christian Thing?"

..gets inserted into more and more threads, usually by those who profess to be agnostics, atheists or those who want to have faith in something "out there" and beyond us but far beyond our understanding and comprehension.

The discussions (I don't really think "discussions" is the correct word; maybe "snarky cheapshots" is more appropriate) it engenders tend to devolve quickly. I would contend that there are as many "definitions" of what a Christian "is" as there are individuals professing to be Christians. Who's to say that any one person or group of people have the sole franchise? Did it pop up on a burning bush in their back yard landscaping?

In the meantime, the "discussions" back and forth add nothing. Some would say Obama is not a Christian. I would disagree with that. If he makes the claim, then he is. He may define it differently than me or one hundred million, or whatever the number might be, other people who profess to be Christians might define it, but he's the one who gets to make the call. The "discussions" don't need to go any further than that ... and that's all I have to say about that.
 
I heard it from the "high horse" replayed this morning

It isn't a speech that should be given by a sitting President. Maybe pastor Wright at his church in Chicago could have given it. Are we seeing now why he attended that church? He identified with the rhetoric that was preached and has governed with the philosophy of Jeremiah Wright.

There are rare times that he leads like a US President. I was actually proud of him recently, but I can't remember what he had done. He needs to hurry and do something else I can be proud of.
 
He spoke 2894 words.

948 of them came before the section about the "high horse." He spoke another 1821 words after that second.

Every complain everyone has about this speech is coming from a single section of 125 words. 4.3% of the entire speech.

Claims of defending Muslims*, gratuitous references to Jeremiah Wright**, highlighting tiny sections of the speech to take out of context***, this is getting ridiculous.

Anyone who says this speech was about comparing Christians to Muslims**** is just flat-out lying.

goat

* And why shouldn't, he, after all, defend the faith practiced by so many American citizens? He's not only President of Christians.

** Gotta remind people that he's not Christian enough, right? I'm surprised we haven't seen Sharpton and Jackson thrown around yet.

*** Actually, this is pretty par for the course nowadays.

**** And again, even if it were, so what? What's so wrong with the sentiment that we are all sinners, and all make mistakes?
 
Let me tell the truth. The controversial past of people who either are true

believers, or just Christians in name only tells me one thing. We are all in need of the Grace of God. Martin Luther made some anti semetic comments in some of his writings. We don't throw away his teachings on Sola Fide, Gracia, etc. But we do recognize that he like all of us mess it up. I know in my own life I have messed some things up too,so I don't throw stones. For I am a man in need of Grace just like the Christians in the past.
I do find it interesting that the President says Christians did things in the name of Christ, while at the same time explaining to us that the muslims killing others are not true muslims. Perhaps those in the past were not true believers? I can't judge their salvation,but it is at least possible.
 
He didn't actually say that.

He never said terrorists aren't true Muslims. He didn't actually touch on that issue.

Although you do raise a good point in the abstract. I have advocated in the past the use of such rhetoric - used by both Bush and Obama - because I feel like it is necessary to gain whatever help is possible from moderates and Muslim governments. But it is true; the terrorists are no "less" Muslim than any other Muslim, just as a southern white racist is no "less" Christian than any other Christian.

But that wasn't the theme of his speech. His theme was simply that we are all imperfect and we should come to God in humility to find what his will for us is, instead of imposing our own will on him.

It wasn't his greatest speech, but it certainly wasn't anything like is being described in this thread.

goat
 
Ha

You criticize me for cherry picking Obama cherry picking history. Okay, got it.

Do you know what he's talking about when he said Americans used Christ to justify slavery? I think he pulled that out of his ass, but if anyone can explain that remark it would be you.
 
Sure.

As an aside, I'm not criticizing you for cherry-picking as much as I am for blatantly misrepresenting and/or commenting without taking the time to read, whichever is the case. I suspect the latter, but either one is equally as intellectually dishonest.

As for Christ being used to defend slavery, I'm surprised your not familiar with the deep religious divides among American Protestants regarding slavery. The pro-slavery argument was essentially:

1. The OT explicitly sanctions slavery.
2. Slavery existed at the time of Jesus.
3. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not destroy it.
4. Jesus would have specifically denounced slavery if it were evil. In Luke 7, Jesus heals a slave, and says nothing about freedom.

The pro-slavery argument was largely carried on by proponents of a literal reading of the Bible. The abolitionists, on the other hand, condemned slavery as incompatible with the principles of Christianity.

Abolitionists were very much the progeny of the Puritan tradition, focused as it was on purifying society. It's not a coincidence that many abolitionists moved on to prohibition and anti-abortion after the War (others stayed focused on social issues, such as the enfranchisement of women).

The Southern religious tradition, however, was very much rooted in traditionalist thought. The same religious traditions gave us the fight against evolution, current reluctance to same-sex marriage, and the like. Even today, many of these debates exhibit a great divide between the North and the Old South.

A great example of this is the division of the Presbyterian Church in 1861, a division which lasted over 120 years.

goat
 
Therefore Obama is an idiot

He says violent atrocities by ISIL are "not Islamic" yet he uses this hair brained argument to say people use Christ to justify slavery. And he makes this claim at the national prayer breakfast? If he finds this in the Bible he sounds exactly like those who find in the Qur'an justification to behead all the infidels. He's gone off the deep end.
 
Dude.

ISIL uses Islam to (wrongly) justify horrible things. In the past, some Christians have used the Bible to (wrongly) justify horrible things. I don't understand how you twist this around in your head so badly. You're trying to turn it into some strange double standard, when it was nothing at all like that. It was a parallel. And an off-hand, minor one at that.

Go read his speech. It wasn't about Christianity. It was about the fact that all humans are flawed and should seek out God's purpose for us, instead of forcing our purpose for God onto him. It was a nice little speech about humility. It wasn't his best, but it was nothing at all like how it's been described in this thread.

goat
 
Look

He voluntarily inserted the issue of using religion to justify atrocities. That was a gratuity and had little to do with his talk or why he was there. He knew what he was doing. He wanted to needle Cristians as a way to deflect the loud and growing criticism of radical Muslim atrocities.
 
Totally get it...

Please note throughout that CoH never insists that he read or watched or listened to the entire speech. But, he KNOWS all kinds of things about it because...well...I guess because he KNOWS.
 
Interesting what people believe is important.

Do you want me to text my daily reading list to you?
 
Are you kidding?

There is no general one way history about the crusades. We can stipulate some things were done for which Christian apologies should and have been given. But the are reasons why the crusades happened. Obama was way out of line in cherry picking one part of history and ignoring the Muslim role in those wars. Moreover, Christians have overcome that history. There is a strain of Islam that still operates in a medieval mode today. This is the issue. Obama was totally inappropriate.
 
Nah...

I just want you to read something before you try to comment on it and analyze it.
 
Uh-oh...looks like I struck a nerve

Nope. Not kidding. You're Exhibit A of exactly the hypersensitivity that I mentioned. Most of your post sounds like a desperate rant to avoid wanting to own that history.

But, congrats...you did get one thing right.

"Christians have overcome that history."

Well...most of them have at least. And I said essentially the same thing when I said,

"Owning those mistakes and proudly pointing towards the better place most of them have moved is a major positive towards showing Muslims how their religion can move forward and prosper."

or

"Like Doug, I don't see much that's shocking or controversial in what President Obama said. It's just a history that Christianity grew from."

or

"Christians should be able to own the mistakes of the past and proudly point to how most amongst them have moved forward to a better place. By doing so, we all stand a much better chance of prodding Islam down a similar path."

Okay, so I actually said it a little bit more completely and eloquently than what you said, but I knew what you meant. :>)
 
You're funny

You talk about me owning events of 1000 years ago, but you can't deal with events of today.

Obama steps in it once again, shows his fundamental Ignorance of world history as well as Christian history, and you can only talk about me. Twice. I'm flattered but you really need to be less sensitive about criticism of Obama. He is infinitely more important than me.
 
You mean like THIS Christian?




Obama Rips Bible, Praises Koran

by Ben Shapiro6 Feb 2015

On Thursday, at the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington, D.C., President Obama blithely informed his audience that Christians ought not get on their "high horse" about the problem of radical Islam:

Unless we get on our high horse and think that this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ. So it is not unique to one group or one religion. There is a tendency in us, a simple tendency that can pervert and distort our faith.

This is historically and philosophically illiterate. Historically speaking, the Crusades were a response to Islamic aggression in Europe and the Middle East; the Inquisition, as Jonah Goldberg points out while quoting historian Thomas Madden, director of the Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies at Saint Louis University, was designed to regularize executions rather than leaving them to the will of the masses. Christians undoubtedly pursued horrible brutalities against people, including innocent Jews. However, as Goldberg points out, "Christianity, even in its most terrible days, even under the most corrupt popes, even during the most unjustifiable wars, was indisputably a force for the improvement of man."

Nowhere is that clearer than in Obama's second example, slavery. Virtually all of the most ardent abolitionists were deeply religious Christians. Hundreds of thousands of American men marched to their deaths singing "The Battle Hymn of the Republic": "In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea / With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me / As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free / While God is marching on." That was 150 years ago. It's not exactly the modern Islamic slogan, "Death to the Jews." Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr., was, as his name suggests, a reverend. He quoted old black Christian spirituals and the Biblical story of the exodus from Egypt. Christians obliterated slavery. Christians obliterated Jim Crow. Modern slavery is largely perpetrated by Muslims. Modern Jim Crow is certainly perpetrated by Muslims under shariah law.

There is a larger point, here, too: President Obama's foolish argument suggests that because Christians were brutal a millennium ago, they should shut up about brutalities today. This is somewhat like saying that because someone's great-great-grandfather held slaves in rural Alabama, that person should shut up about human trafficking in 2015. It's asinine.

But Obama has a history of insulting Christianity and Judaism while upholding Islam. In 2006, Obama bashed the Bible and religious Christians and Jews in particular:

Which passages of Scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is ok and that eating shellfish is abomination? How about Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount - a passage that is so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application? So before we get carried away, let's read our bibles. Folks haven't been reading their bibles.

He then concluded that religious leaders should not speak out against publicly-funded contraception or gay marriage.

We can get into President Obama's pathetic Biblical commentary here - his interpretation of Leviticus on slavery is incorrect, Jews still avoid shellfish, the Talmud explains that no child has ever been stoned for rebelliousness, and the Sermon on the Mount is not a pacifist document. Obama's not Biblically literate - he's the same fellow who says, "I think the good book says don't throw stones in glass houses."

He said in The Audacity of Hope that he would define Biblical values however he chose, stating that he is not willing "to accept a reading of the Bible that considers an obscure line in Romans to be more defining of Christianity than the Sermon on the Mount." Both are, in fact, parts of the Bible. Citing the Sermon on the Mount to justify civil unions for homosexuals, as Obama has done, is not in fact Biblical.

But more importantly, Obama's scorn for the old-fashioned Bible is obvious. That became more obvious in 2008, when Obama told some of his buddies in San Francisco that unemployed idiots "cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

The Obama administration has routinely attacked religious organizations and people who violate Obama's personal political predilections. They've attacked all trappings of Christianity as well. Whether they're using Obamacare to force religious individuals to pay for others' contraception or toning down the National Day of Prayer objecting to adding FDR's D-Day prayer to the WWII memorial, the Obama administration clearly isn't fond of Christianity.

This contrasts strongly with President Obama's romantic vision of Islam. He famously called the Muslim call to prayer "the sweetest sound I know." He said in his first presidential interview, with Al-Arabiya, that his job was "to communicate to the American people that the Muslim world is filled with extraordinary people who simply want to live their lives and see their children live better lives." Weeks later, he said in Turkey, "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over the centuries to shape the world - including in my own country." A few months later, in a speech in Cairo to which he invited the Muslim Brotherhood, Obama said:

I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the region where it was first revealed. That experience guides my conviction that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what Islam is, not what it isn't. And I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.

He added that Islam has a "proud tradition of tolerance," explained, 'Islam is not part of the problem in combating violent extremism - it is an important part of promoting peace," and said, "America and Islam are not exclusive and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles of justice and progress, tolerance and the dignity of all human beings." He said in his Ramadan message in 2009 that Islam has played a key "role in advancing justice, progress, tolerance, and the dignity of all human beings."

ISIS, Obama has said over and over again, is not Islamic. His administration maintains that America is not at war with radical Islam. He stated before the United Nations in 2012, just weeks after the murder of four Americans in Benghazi, Libya at the hands of Muslim terrorists, "The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Hillary Clinton allegedly promised Charles Woods, father of one of the slain in Benghazi, that the administration would achieve the arrest of the YouTube filmmaker behind The Innocence of Muslims. The State Department issued taxpayer-funded commercials denouncing that YouTube video. President Obama variously called the video "crude and disgusting" and stated that "its message must be rejected by all who respect our common humanity." At the UN in 2014, Obama lauded a Muslim cleric who backs Hamas. And, of course, Obama uses Islamic theology to promote his vision of world peace:

All of us have a responsibility to work for the day when the mothers of Israelis and Palestinians can see their children grow up without fear; when the Holy Land of the three great faiths is the place of peace that God intended it to be; when Jerusalem is a secure and lasting home for Jews and Christians and Muslims, and a place for all of the children of Abraham to mingle peacefully together as in the story of Isra, when Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed, peace be upon them, joined in prayer.

All three religions do have access to holy sites now, in Jewish-run Jerusalem. They did not when Muslims ruled Jerusalem. But facts have no bearing in the fantasy world of the president.

Perhaps one final contrast tells the tale. In 2012, writing him a letter stating, "We will take the appropriate steps to avoid any recurrence, including holding accountable those responsible."

Three years earlier, members of the military burned Bibles printed in Pashto and Dari. CNN reported that they had been discarded "amid concern they would be used to try to convert Afghans." The Bibles were burned rather than sent back to their source organization because the military worried they might be re-sent to another outlet in Afghanistan. There was no apology to the church that printed the Bibles, or to Christians more broadly.

Sure, radical Muslims around the world, supported by millions of their compatriots and friendly governments, are murdering innocents. But it's Christian aggression that forces Muslims to burn other Muslims alive in Muslim countries.
 
Or maybe THIS Christian?




NATIONAL REVIEW ONLINE

February 7, 2015 4:00 AM


Obama, the Show

The president's equivocating radical Islam and Christianity is straight out of an Aaron Sorkin script.

By Jonah Goldberg



Dear Reader (Unless you're Brian Williams, who's busy helping the brave boys at the Alamo),

Okay, so I am not immune to piling on Brian Williams, but I have to say that I think this is being overblown.

On Thursday, I was the guest host on Bill Bennett's radio show. When I wasn't performing some of the greatest mime ever recorded on radio (prove me wrong!), I took a lot of calls. One of the callers was livid about Williams, insisting that we have another Dan Rather situation here. I stopped my rendition of "Man in a Box" to respond that I didn't think so.

As I wrote at the time - and said on air on Thursday - and will look for any opportunity to say again, Dan Rather climbed up the Jackass Tree and hit every branch on the way down. Rather tried to take out a president he didn't like with forged documents he should have known were forged. He defended the forgeries, attacked his critics, fell back on the defense that the story was fake but accurate, and in every way dragged the mess out far longer than any rational man would and, let's be honest, more than I could ever have hoped. As I wrote in 2004:

Yes, I know: Schadenfreude - taking pleasure in another's misfortune - is sinful in itself, and suggesting that the Almighty is in on the fun makes it doubly so. But what other explanation could there be? At every turn Dan Rather has had the opportunity to do what is both right and smart and instead he's gone with Plan B. The metastasizing clownishness of Rather's entire persona is one of the most glorious and enjoyable spectacles of the modern media age. If these trends continue, by the middle of October Rather will be showing up to read the news in a giant orange wig, shiny red nose and a flower that squirts seltzer whenever he mentions one of those hurricanes he loves so dearly. It is quite simply The Greatest Story Ever.

The Williams story strikes me as something far less than the Greatest Story Ever. It's really kind of sad and pathetic. Some people embellish stories, lots and lots of people. The fish always gets bigger. The girl at the bar gets hotter. The other guy in the fight gets tougher. At some point the embellishments cover up the original, like layers of graffiti. That's what Williams did. Don't get me wrong. He lied and his apology minimized the size and duration of the lie. But the nature of the lie wasn't nearly as bad as those of countless others who yoked deceit to a partisan agenda or for political gain. He was trying to praise the military and wanted a little more of their glory to rub off on him.

Compared to Richard Blumenthal using his fictitious claim of serving in Vietnam to bolster his foreign-policy bona fides; or John Kerry embellishing his own record to denigrate the U.S. military and our country; or Bill Clinton lying about so, so, so many things, Williams's lie is just a sad case of an overpaid front man for the peacock network trying to add some brightly colored feathers to his plumage. See John Hinderaker's take for some good speculation as to why he did this.

If Williams was a personal friend and I caught him in this lie, it wouldn't end our friendship. I would give him a lot of grief over it, sure. "Hey, Brian, remember that time that small town sheriff wouldn't let you spend the night and you ended up taking down his whole department with nothing but a rock and a hunting knife? Oh wait, that was Rambo. From your stories it's hard to keep you two straight."

Does Williams's lie matter? Of course it does. As Hinderaker notes, Williams is wildly overpaid to do a job that is largely theatrical. In a free market, if that makes sense, so be it. But as Peter Parker learned when he didn't stop the crook who ultimately killed his Uncle Ben, with great power (and great paychecks) comes great responsibility. Williams is paid millions of dollars to do the following:

1. Look good on camera

2. Read true things from a teleprompter about news stuff

3. Be trustworthy

4. Not spontaneously combust or become some sort of lycanthrope on camera (werewolf, werebasset, Lou Albano, etc.).

I'm sure he does other things. Some news anchors actually work hard at putting together the newscast. But the point is that Williams doesn't have to do that. He does have to do the things listed above. If he got a face tattoo depicting a biker-gang orgy, he'd lose his job. If he suddenly came down with some strange malady that caused him to read the news in Elvish (which, by the way, is how you say "Elvis" with a mouthful of crackers), he'd lose his job.

As for being trustworthy, the question remains whether this is a big enough of a breach to justify losing his job. That probably depends on what we learn in the days ahead about other statements Williams has made and how he handles himself. Should he lose his job over what we know already? Maybe. I don't know. On the one hand, if he was really counseled to stop telling the story and kept doing it, then he's got real problems. On the other hand, I don't take NBC News seriously, and having damaged goods in the anchor chair might be a good thing.

Rarely am I so torn about an issue that matters so little.

Obama, the Show

I sometimes think Obama thinks he's in an episode of The West Wing or some other Aaron Sorkin version of reality where the facts always line up to preconceived liberal narratives. In most "sophisticated" Hollywood movies and TV shows about politics, the enemy is usually us. The real threat isn't some external foe, but the fearsome spirit of Joseph McCarthy that the external enemy might arouse in us. The heroic statesman is the figure who steps forward and points out our own hypocrisy and ignorance; the one who tells us to come to our senses. In The West Wing, President Josiah Bartlet always stepped in to settle the arguments by pointing out our own sins, or going on a tear about how America is not the greatest country in the world.

It all sounds very smart. It's like Stephen Colbert's "truthiness" in that it often sounds true. But one could also call it "smartyness" because the real goal is to sound smart. One of the reasons I cannot stand Sorkin's oeuvre is that it is all written so smugly. Every argument ends as if the liberal should simply drop the microphone and proclaim, "Bartlet out." But it only really works if you either assume great ignorance on the part of the audience or if the audience already agrees with whatever is being said.

It's amazing to me how much Obama's speeches depend on, and benefit from, the same things. The solipsism of the liberal egghead press is partly to blame. Obama goes out there and literally persuades no one about anything, but since he says exactly what a liberal president is supposed to say, they think it's all brilliant soaring oratory and bold statesmanship.

What Obama shares with the collective authors of the liberal narrative is a deep and abiding suspicion that the American people are bigots, that they don't understand their self-interest as well as liberal elites do, that America/Americans has/have no right to judge others given our own sins, and that we should never overreact to anything that makes liberals feel uncomfortable. Oh, you can overreact as much as you want to whatever liberals are overreacting to. In fact, that is encouraged. But if you get excited about something the folks at MSNBC think is weird or scary or could lead to the McCarthy poltergeist will-o'-the-wisping through the Upper West Side of Manhattan or Park Slope, then it's a scary time here in America. As I wrote in this space just a couple weeks ago, the Eloi must be ever vigilant not to arouse the Morlocks.

Which brings me to the crusades, the Inquisition, and slavery. My here.)

But I simply find it amazing - and amazingly pathetic - that the president felt the need to chide a room full of religiously literate people about how they shouldn't get too judgey about what the Islamic State is doing right now because Christians did bad things almost 1,000 years ago.

Every single thing about this is ridiculous, and it would still be ridiculous if all of Obama's assumptions about the Crusades, the Inquisition, slavery, and Christianity were accurate (they're not). I feel like Obama went out and talked at length about a ten-horned unicorn and I'm forced to explain that (1) unicorns only have one horn, what you're talking about would be a decicorn and (2) unicorns don't frick'n exist either.

The Islamic State is crucifying people right now. Romans crucified people over 2,000 years ago. Does this mean that Italians can't criticize them? How is it that the sins of Christianity are eternal but the sins of Muslim fanatics right now aren't even Muslim? The Islamic State is enslaving people right now. America had slaves 150 years ago. And, speaking of non-sequiturs, vests have no sleeves.

I've gotten a lot of criticism about my column yesterday, nearly all of it whiny nonsense. But there is one fair jab. Obama did go on to criticize the Islamic State and Islamic extremism, even if he refused to call it Islamic. I didn't mention that in my column.

True enough. But that also misses the point. Obama can't help himself. He just can't give a full-throated denunciation of Islamic extremism, or even a tepid one, without doing his creased-pants Niehbur schtick. But look: This isn't complicated. It's really not. If you have to clear your throat for five minutes about the skeletons in our closet before you can feel comfortable denouncing barbarians who bury little boys alive and then go on to rape their little sisters, that's is your hang-up, man. I've got my faults, all reasonable people can agree, but I don't feel compelled to list them before I denounce rapists and murderers; "Hey man, I know, I drink too much scotch and I'm sometimes needlessly sarcastic, but you really shouldn't rape little girls or set people on fire."

That would be only half as crazy as what Obama is claiming here. Because in the above analogy, they're my faults. Meanwhile, Obama is checking-off crimes from nearly 1,000 years ago to make it clear he's not on a high horse. The more apposite analogy would be "Hey man, I know, my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was a real prick, so I'm not being preachy. But you really shouldn't crucify people."

Mere Christianity

Which brings me to Christianity. Again as I say, Christianity, or rather Christians over the course of history, aren't without sin. I know this from many sources, but one of the biggest ones is from Christians themselves. They know they're sinners and they say so, quite a bit actually. And I've never met a serious or informed Christian who's denied that Christians have made mistakes, sometimes grave mistakes, in the past. Indeed, this isn't even a remotely hard admission for any Christian I have ever met.

But what really drives me crazy is how people get the causation all wrong. Here's how I put it in the Tyranny of Clichés:

As a fairly secular Jew I cannot and will not speak to the theological questions, in part because I do not want to. But mostly because I do not have to. The core problem with those who glibly invoke one cliché after another about the evils of organized religion and Catholicism is that they betray the progressive tendency to look back on the last two thousand years and see the Catholic Church - and Christianity generally - as holding back humanity from progress, reason, and enlightenment. They fault the Church for not knowing what could not have been known yet and for being too slow to accept new discoveries that only seem obvious to us with the benefit of hindsight. It's an odd attack from people who boast of their skepticism and yet condemn the Church for being rationally skeptical about scientific breakthroughs.

In short, they look at the tide of secularism and modernity as proof that the Church was an anchor. I put it to you that it was more of sail. Nearly everything we revere about modernity and progress - education, the rule of law, charity, decency, the notion of the universal rights of man, and reason were advanced by the Church for most of the last two thousand years.

Yes, compared to the ideal imagined by atheists and secularists this sounds like madness.

But isn't the greater madness to make a real force for good the enemy because the forces of self-anointed perfection claim to have some glorious blueprint for a flawless world sitting on a desk somewhere? It is a Whiggish and childish luxury to compare the past - or even the present - to a utopian standard. Of course there was corruption, cruelty, and hypocrisy within the Church - because the Church is a human institution. Its dark hypocrisies are the backdrop that allow us to see the luminance of the standard they have, on occasion, fallen short of. The Catholic Church was a spiritual beacon lighting the way forward compared to the world lit only by fire outside the Church doors.

Anglo-American Exceptionalism & Slavery

Forget the Inquisition and the Crusades for a moment. Take slavery. It was an evil institution. It will always remain a stain on America's honor.

But here's the thing. America put an end to it at an enormous price. Moreover, slavery was a constant on every continent for thousands of years. Looking at America in the context of the great tide of human events, the remarkable thing isn't that we had slaves, it's that we ended slavery. We ended slavery because deep in the founding principles of this country were deeply Christian - or, if you prefer, Judeo-Christian - principles that eventually couldn't be reconciled with slavery.

Obviously, the better example is Britain. The British had slaves, as did countless other societies and civilizations stretching off to the dawn of man. What is remarkable is that, thanks to a Christian renaissance, they decided to not only abolish slavery in their own lands, but to impose their values on others. The British got on a very high horse, thank God, and they had the courage to act on their sense of moral superiority.

As should we. It's entirely fair to argue that we shouldn't get on a high horse with regard to how the French or the Canadians do things, no matter how much fun it may be. But the Islamic State? The Mullahs of Iran? Boko Haram? Please, we're so much better than them by any objective moral or intellectual standard it's insulting to be asked to make the case. That doesn't mean we don't have faults, but it does mean our faults are entirely irrelevant and one should not bring up such irrelevancies for fear that reasonable people will hear false equivalencies.

Unless, of course, you're the kind of person who isn't comfortable with the idea that America or the West can be wholly, completely, unapologetically on the right side of a major question of human affairs, particularly when that conviction gives you license to kill evil people. Such confidence makes some people very uncomfortable and so they start scanning the horizon for a topic they can drag into their comfort zone. "Enough about how bad they are," they seem to be saying, "can't we get back to how bad we are? Where's Joe McCarthy when we need him!?"

The Horse Equivocator

One last thing about this high horse. There's a kind of Escher drawing pas de deux of asininity here because Obama is telling people not to get on a high horse from the saddle of a much higher horse. I mean is there a man in public life who preaches from a higher equine altitude than this guy? This is the guy who explained that Hillary Clinton's supporters in the Democratic primary in Pennsylvania were backward yokels bitterly clinging to their sky god and boom sticks.

What offends Obama isn't sanctimony, judgmentalism, or arrogance; it's competition. What rankles him is when people refuse to genuflect to the trite pieties he unspools as if they were spun from gold.

 
No, its not

as simple as THAT. Its as simple as THIS.

A Christian is a person who accepts and believes the fundamental tenets of Christianity as defined in the Bible. Merely calling oneself a Christian does not meet that test.

The same is true of Islam. A Moslem is a person who accepts and believes in the fundamental tenets of Islam as defined in the Koran. Merely calling oneself a Moslem does not meet that test.
This post was edited on 2/7 9:20 AM by Ladoga
 
Brilliant statement and summarizes it all


and the whole truth and nothing but the truth!!

"What Obama shares with the collective authors of the liberal narrative is a deep and abiding suspicion that the American people are bigots, that they don't understand their self-interest as well as liberal elites do, that America/Americans has/have no right to judge others given our own sins, and that we should never overreact to anything that makes liberals feel uncomfortable. Oh, you can overreact as much as you want to whatever liberals are overreacting to."
 
Thanks!

You should be less sensitive about criticism of your analyzing and criticizing a speech you didn't actually read, watch, or listen to. I'm happy to own the actual words that the President said in the entire speech. I'm happy to have intelligent discussions with people who actually take the time to read, watch, or listen to them.

So, it's not about YOU. It's about the same thing you criticize the President for...the words you type. The difference here is that I've read all the words you've added to this thread. I have digested all you have said about this topic. And I can see how it bugs you when someone brings up that you've failed to do the same thing in your criticism.

Sorry that you're so sensitive, but buck up and own it.
 
Uh-oh...looks like I struck another nerve!

Cool...you found someone who isn't Christian who agrees with you. That totally invalidates everything that the President said...not.
rolleyes.r191677.gif


Shorter Shapiro. "Christians did good stuff, too." And?

He sort of forgot the much more important point that I made. Christians moved forward to a better place by eradicating those abuses of Christianity and can provide a road map to a better place for their Muslim brethren if some in their midst would quit sticking their foot in it by not owning their history. See DougS for how to handle it.
 
And who decides what that test is?

Your definition isn't simple at all. It requires the observer to pick a subjective test by which to measure people. That's why it doesn't work. A Christian is someone who identifies as a Christian. Period.

Edit: BTW, very few Muslims would agree with your definition of a Muslim. Your definition is a very Protestant definition. I don't think even Catholics and Orthodox would find it sufficient. And it would be entirely unsuited for defining any of the major Eastern religions.

This post was edited on 2/7 10:42 AM by TheOriginalHappyGoat
 
I mean...I really struck a nerve!

I'm a liberal, but I don't have any deep and abiding suspicion that the American people are bigots. I don't think they have a single self-interest (that seems kind of counter-intuitive). I careful of judging other (lest I be judged), but I also have no problem opposing and fighting against things like the evils of ISIS (or the evils of gang murders in LA).

I love all of America and all Americans, Dave. Some days it seems like you love all Americans except for liberals. Maybe one day you'll embrace all of America.
 
who decides what those tenets are

For generations Protestants and Catholics did not accept each other. I have a friend raised Mormon who absolutely does not believe Mormons are Christian, yet I have a Mormon friend who believes it entirely.

My sister assures me that I am doomed because I was baptized Lutheran by sprinkling and The Bible is quite clear one must be immersed.

I believe baptism is a fundamental tenent, if major Christian churches cannot agree in that, what is left?

So let's use baptism. Is it required? As an adult or infant? Immersion or sprinkling? Which tenent decides if one is a Christian or not?
 
Grin

I've been criticized, my words examined, and my arguments challenged by experts. I'm still here and still doing some of that. And I've had more than my share of impact. Overly sensitive? Nah. Overly sensitive types don't keep up the good fight for decades. You seem to be a smart guy, but you have no idea. BTW, you have no clue about what I read; that's part of the fun for me.
 
I'll be honest and

say that I haven't read enough about the history of Christianity to know how to know whether what Obama said gives the right or wrong impression. When you try to compare events of today against history I do know that you can't just pick a point and compare against that and make a fair comparison because you don't know the general history of the thing you are comparing to.
 
Where does all this "strike a nerve" stuff come from?

you, goat, and a few others have been on the nerve-striking-over-senstivity kick for a month or so now. As near as I can tell this is avoidance, not argument. At least you aren't engaging in name-calling and insults, so there is that.

Here's the point. Whenever somebody wants to level criticism at Christianity, they trot out the crusades and abortion clinics. I'll gave Obama credit for not talking about abortion clinics, but the crusades reference is shallow, meaningless and irrelevant to the issues we see in religion today. That doesn't represent much deep analysis or thought. Obama put himself in Alan Coombs territory with his drive by crusades reference. Actually Obama is always in Alan Coombs territory) Moreover the point was surplusage to his speech and highly inappropriate for the context of the event. That was pure community organizer and not presidential. As I mentioned yesterday, his remark was tantamount to whomever introduced him referencing Obama's history of snorting coke.
 
The real problem isn't the history.

Which is accurate, by and large, but irrelevant for the complaints here.

The real issue is that his speech wasn't about comparing Muslims to Christians. He mentioned Islam once, and it wasn't even in the same section that got everyone's panties in a wad.

The speech was about humility and coming to terms with the fact that we, as humans, make mistakes, and that we should seek God's will for us instead of forcing our will on him. In other words, it was a perfectly decent (though not extraordinary) prayer breakfast speech.

The "high horse" section was poorly written, I thought, but wasn't by way of trying to justify Muslim extremism by saying, "See, we did it, too!*" It was simply a small paragraph about how people of all faiths can fail to do the right thing. He mentioned the Crusades (example from his faith), and then slavery (example from his nation), and then religious strife in India (example from the trip he had just returned from recently). It's basic speech-writing. You take three examples from three different contexts and tie them together. This should be a non-story. It's only a story because people are looking for something to criticize.

goat

* If you really wanted to make the speech about Muslim extremism, in fact, you'd have to say the lesson of the speech was actually just the opposite: that we were able to fight against our demons, and they should, too.
 
What is Christian about it?

It's not really "free." Someone is paying for it. That money has to be taken from someone to pay for this. What Christian "sentiment" is there in taking money from some and giving to others?

And why are progressives so greedy? There seems to be no end to their desire for free stuff. In addition to "free" CC, lots of progressive/liberal people and politicians are advocating for student loan "forgiveness." In other words, they want other people to pay for THEIR decisions to incur PERSONAL debt to pay for their education. How selfish and greedy is that? Very, in my book.
 
Looks like a struck a nerve with all of that strike a nerve stuff


You've still never suggested that you read, listened to, or watched President Obama's entire speech. Doug got it. You don't seem to be able to.

If somebody introduced President Obama by referencing his history of snorting coke, my suggestion to the President would be the same as it is to my Christian brethren. Own your history and use it as an opportunity to show how you've grown from your past and moved to a better place. The sad thing is that many of my Christian brethren here miss the exact opportunity that President Obama points towards and thus miss the opportunity to show our Muslim brethren how to do the same.

I've been consistently making that point in this thread and the only avoidance being done here is you, Irongreenbossieravenue, dave and others avoiding responding to it because you're avoiding owning history.
 
Re: What is Christian about it?


Sounds like a reference to communism to me. Marx believed that a truly utopian society must be classless and stateless. (It should be noted that Marx died well before any of his theories were put to the test.) Marx's main idea was simple: Free the lower class from poverty and give the poor a fighting chance. How he believed it should be accomplished, however, was another story. In order to liberate the lower class, Marx believed that the government would have to control all means of production so that no one could outdo anyone else by making more money.
 
Explain.

How does that in anyway advocate taking money from some and giving it to others?
 
Re: Explain.


Was referring to your comment "sentiment" is there in taking money from some and giving to others".
 
It is often used to advocate providing for the needy.

For example, here in the Fort, there is a free health clinic for poor non-Medicaid recipients actually called "The Matthew 25 Clinic."

Whether or not to apply that sentiment to some level of education is simply a matter of how much education we think society should provide to all children regardless of ability to pay. Most people agree that we shouldn't shut down all public schools, for example, that even the poor have the right to earn a high school diploma. Extending that to two years of college would simply be a matter of degrees, not of substance.

goat
 
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