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No discussion on Taiwan?

zeke4ahs

zeke4ahs

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Oct 26, 2003
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I honestly wait 24 hours before commenting on the latest Trump faux pas, but I guess, just lik enduring the campaign, it's kind of impossible to keep up with. I'm not an expert by any means on the China- Taiwan situation, but it seems to me that it's kind of a big deal that Trump just broke decades of policy by making this phone all. I'm not sure which is more frightening , if he did it on purpose or if he actually didn't know. I'm guessing he didn't know. A reason he should probably be taking his briefings.
 
zeke4ahs said:
I honestly wait 24 hours before commenting on the latest Trump faux pas, but I guess, just lik enduring the campaign, it's kind of impossible to keep up with. I'm not an expert by any means on the China- Taiwan situation, but it seems to me that it's kind of a big deal that Trump just broke decades of policy by making this phone all. I'm not sure which is more frightening , if he did it on purpose or if he actually didn't know. I'm guessing he didn't know. A reason he should probably be taking his briefings.
Click to expand...

He received the phone call. Still probably not the wisest move, but there is a big difference, IMO.
 
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zeke4ahs said:
I honestly wait 24 hours before commenting on the latest Trump faux pas, but I guess, just lik enduring the campaign, it's kind of impossible to keep up with. I'm not an expert by any means on the China- Taiwan situation, but it seems to me that it's kind of a big deal that Trump just broke decades of policy by making this phone all. I'm not sure which is more frightening , if he did it on purpose or if he actually didn't know. I'm guessing he didn't know. A reason he should probably be taking his briefings.
Click to expand...
Protocol status quo gives us exactly what we currently have in the White House - a wuss foreign policy not willing to take any action except attend meetings and dinners. We just threw those people out. We should never have recognized the Chinese Communist Regime of mass murder as legitimate governors of China.
 
Ladoga said:
Protocol status quo gives us exactly what we currently have in the White House - a wuss foreign policy not willing to take any action except attend meetings and dinners. We just threw those people out. We should never have recognized the Chinese Communist Regime of mass murder as legitimate governors of China.
Click to expand...
Mass murder? What mass murder are you talking about?
 
Sorry, I knew they called him, but it wasn't a surprise and the staff knew it was coming, so it was prearranged. Verdict still out on whether he was actually inquiring about personal business interests. The conflict in business is going to be stunning. This is another topic altogether, but just read an article on the new overtime laws that were just stopped by injunction and how that would effect Trump businesses.
 
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I think the more significant aspect is China's muted reaction, chalking it up mostly to Trump's inexperience combined with Taiwan taking advantage of that inexperience. When dealing with China the reaction is far more telling than the preceding act itself.
 
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zeke4ahs said:
Sorry, I knew they called him, but it wasn't a surprise and the staff knew it was coming, so it was prearranged. Verdict still out on whether he was actually inquiring about personal business interests. The conflict in business is going to be stunning. This is another topic altogether, but just read an article on the new overtime laws that were just stopped by injunction and how that would effect Trump businesses.
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The worst I've heard so far was this call

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-kazakhstan-nursultan-nazarbayev-miracle/

Honestly, I have to believe that there are no "experts" informing him with proper background prior to these calls. Shocking.
 
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zeke4ahs said:
I honestly wait 24 hours before commenting on the latest Trump faux pas, but I guess, just lik enduring the campaign, it's kind of impossible to keep up with. I'm not an expert by any means on the China- Taiwan situation, but it seems to me that it's kind of a big deal that Trump just broke decades of policy by making this phone all. I'm not sure which is more frightening , if he did it on purpose or if he actually didn't know. I'm guessing he didn't know. A reason he should probably be taking his briefings.
Click to expand...

Does it make a difference?

Trump said months ago, during a primary debate, that being President is all about building relationships. That is exactly what he is doing with all these world leaders. He doesn't see the need to be encumbered by diplomatic protocol that is mostly nothing but protocol for protocol sake. Trump prides himself in talking with anybody and discussing mutual solutions to problems. All I see is that he is doing what he said he would do. And you want to know what else? I think he'll call any democrat at anytime at any place about any issue to see of they can solve a problem. That probably breaches some protocol also. But this is what he does. This is how he does business.

I don't think we know enough to know if his approach is bad or good.
 
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zeke4ahs said:
I honestly wait 24 hours before commenting on the latest Trump faux pas, but I guess, just lik enduring the campaign, it's kind of impossible to keep up with. I'm not an expert by any means on the China- Taiwan situation, but it seems to me that it's kind of a big deal that Trump just broke decades of policy by making this phone all. I'm not sure which is more frightening , if he did it on purpose or if he actually didn't know. I'm guessing he didn't know. A reason he should probably be taking his briefings.
Click to expand...

Nothingburger here at this point, IMO.
 
CO. Hoosier said:
Are you kidding?
Click to expand...
As I asked, what mass murder/murderer are you talking about? Qin Shi Huang? Genghis Khan? Chiang Kai Shek? Cultural revolution? Tinamin Square? Japanese killing 250,000 Chinese in Nanking, in which case the murderers were Japanese, not Chinese? W/O time reference, it makes absolutely no sense unless, of course, you and Ladoga are saying that all Chinese are mass murderers, which sort of makes sense to some of you who really think that. :(

If you insist on the way Ladoga phrased, then, one can make the same arguments to the Europeans and the Americans if you read their respective history. Then it comes right back to "The Merchant of Venice" argument.
 
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CO. Hoosier said:
Trump said months ago, during a primary debate, that being President is all about building relationships. That is exactly what he is doing with all these world leaders. He doesn't see the need to be encumbered by diplomatic protocol that is mostly nothing but protocol for protocol sake. Trump prides himself in talking with anybody and discussing mutual solutions to problems.
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Yet when Obama said he would be willing to talk to Iran he was vilified.
 
meridian said:
As I asked, what mass murder/murderer are you talking about? Qin Shi Huang? Genghis Khan? Chiang Kai Shek? Cultural revolution? Tinamin Square? Japanese killing 250,000 Chinese in Nanking, in which case the murderers were Japanese, not Chinese? W/O time reference, it makes absolutely no sense unless, of course, you and Ladoga are saying that all Chinese are mass murderers, which sort of makes sense to some of you who really think that. :(

If you insist on the way Ladoga phrased, then, one can make the same arguments to the Europeans and the Americans if you read their history. Then it comes right back to the Merchant of Venice" argument.
Click to expand...

LOL Genghis Khan LOL.
 
Ladoga said:
Protocol status quo gives us exactly what we currently have in the White House - a wuss foreign policy not willing to take any action except attend meetings and dinners. We just threw those people out. We should never have recognized the Chinese Communist Regime of mass murder as legitimate governors of China.
Click to expand...

Are we talking about the same people?

But regardless, enough with the simplistic name-calling. They aren't communist --they are certainly more capitalistic than Trump's crony-capitalism.

Besides, if they are truly communist, then we all ought to be worried because it shows communism works -- China currently, being the 2nd largest economy in the world and by the next decade expected to be the largest.
 
zeke4ahs said:
I honestly wait 24 hours before commenting on the latest Trump faux pas, but I guess, just lik enduring the campaign, it's kind of impossible to keep up with. I'm not an expert by any means on the China- Taiwan situation, but it seems to me that it's kind of a big deal that Trump just broke decades of policy by making this phone all. I'm not sure which is more frightening , if he did it on purpose or if he actually didn't know. I'm guessing he didn't know. A reason he should probably be taking his briefings.
Click to expand...

Why does decades of policy matter?

We also had decades of a policy of isolation towards Cuba. That doesn't mean it made any sense or that it was wrong to change it.

I love that he took the call. Screw the Chinese dictators.
 
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meridian said:
As I asked, what mass murder/murderer are you talking about? Qin Shi Huang? Genghis Khan? Chiang Kai Shek? Cultural revolution? Tinamin Square? Japanese killing 250,000 Chinese in Nanking, in which case the murderers were Japanese, not Chinese? W/O time reference, it makes absolutely no sense unless, of course, you and Ladoga are saying that all Chinese are mass murderers, which sort of makes sense to some of you who really think that. :(

If you insist on the way Ladoga phrased, then, one can make the same arguments to the Europeans and the Americans if you read their history. Then it comes right back to the Merchant of Venice" argument.
Click to expand...

They all look alike to him... it can be confusing.
 
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crazed_hoosier2 said:
Why does decades of policy matter?

We also had decades of a policy of isolation towards Cuba. That doesn't mean it made any sense or that it was wrong to change it.

I love that he took the call. Screw the Chinese dictators.
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Yup. Screw diplomacy. Screw what anyone that knows anything about our country has thought for the last 50 years. You know Trump and his cronies have studied the issues judiciously. You all that are making excuses for his reckless behavior will still be making excuses for him and his maverick style as his wrecks the economy, the environment, diplomatic relationships, etc. Cause you wanted an outsider. Make sure you get a plumber when you need surgery. Cause that's what we've got here.
 
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Ladoga said:
Protocol status quo gives us exactly what we currently have in the White House - a wuss foreign policy not willing to take any action except attend meetings and dinners.
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You are absolutely right! Obama should be spending his time tweeting how great he is and how he was clever to dodge paying taxes. That would be American way and adored by the likes of Ladoga. :(
 
meridian said:
OK, if not Genghis Kahn, which murderer is he talking about while brown-nosing other murderers like Vladimir Putin?
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Kahn is that a lunch meat and hotdog producer and yes they use the nose too, Everything goes in a hotdog
 
zeke4ahs said:
Yup. Screw diplomacy. Screw what anyone that knows anything about our country has thought for the last 50 years. You know Trump and his cronies have studied the issues judiciously. You all that are making excuses for his reckless behavior will still be making excuses for him and his maverick style as his wrecks the economy, the environment, diplomatic relationships, etc. Cause you wanted an outsider. Make sure you get a plumber when you need surgery. Cause that's what we've got here.
Click to expand...

Reckless? Do you think China will invade Taiwan, nuke it, or something cuz of this phone call? Or maybe China will become more aggressive in the South China sea with building artificial Islands and claiming them as Chinese territory or rattle their sabers at Japan or something, or maybe punish our economy with currency manipulation . . . . .oh wait.

We sell $40+ billion in arms to Taiwan, we have robust trade with Taiwan, US citizens can travel there without restriction, US companies can do business there without specific restrictions, Uncle Sam has guaranteed Taiwan's security and we are otherwise militarily intertwined with them. Seems to me Trump as eschewed protocol for practicality. So what? That is okay with me.
 
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CO. Hoosier said:
Reckless? Do you think China will invade Taiwan, nuke it, or something cuz of this phone call? Or maybe China will become more aggressive in the South China sea with building artificial Islands and claiming them as Chinese territory or rattle their sabers at Japan or something, or maybe punish our economy with currency manipulation . . . . .oh wait.

We sell $40+ billion in arms to Taiwan, we have robust trade with Taiwan, US citizens can travel there without restriction, US companies can do business there without specific restrictions, Uncle Sam has guaranteed Taiwan's security and we are otherwise militarily intertwined with them. Seems to me Trump as eschewed protocol for practicality. So what? That is okay with me.
Click to expand...
Me too!
 
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zeke4ahs said:
Yup. Screw diplomacy. Screw what anyone that knows anything about our country has thought for the last 50 years. You know Trump and his cronies have studied the issues judiciously. You all that are making excuses for his reckless behavior will still be making excuses for him and his maverick style as his wrecks the economy, the environment, diplomatic relationships, etc. Cause you wanted an outsider. Make sure you get a plumber when you need surgery. Cause that's what we've got here.
Click to expand...

So it would be more diplomatic for out president-elect to refuse a call from another world leader?

Why...because it would ruffle feathers in Beijing?

You're not hearing what I'm saying: we should be ruffling feathers in Beijing over certain issues...rather than kowtowing to their heavy-handed regional hegemony.

Should our leaders also refuse audiences with the Dalai Lama....just because he's so reviled by the Chinese dictators?

The problem here isn't us -- it's them.
 
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meridian said:
Mass murder? What mass murder are you talking about?
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Chinese Communist Government mass murder. What part of that do you not understand? Genocide. Maybe around 60 million people killed by the government in China. You knew that, right?
 
meridian said:
As I asked, what mass murder/murderer are you talking about? Qin Shi Huang? Genghis Khan? Chiang Kai Shek? Cultural revolution? Tinamin Square? Japanese killing 250,000 Chinese in Nanking, in which case the murderers were Japanese, not Chinese? W/O time reference, it makes absolutely no sense unless, of course, you and Ladoga are saying that all Chinese are mass murderers, which sort of makes sense to some of you who really think that. :(

If you insist on the way Ladoga phrased, then, one can make the same arguments to the Europeans and the Americans if you read their respective history. Then it comes right back to "The Merchant of Venice" argument.
Click to expand...
I knew it stunk in here for a long time, but excusing the murder of 60 million Chinese by the government should be the very last straw for you. Geesh, China and mass murder means what? The very one that folks have mentioned here. Do you deny it? Excuse it for the sake of the advancement of good old Communism?
 
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sglowrider said:
They all look alike to him... it can be confusing.
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That's a bullshit post and racist of you! Racist, ya hear? Decent folks don't carry that racist crap around and drop it when their arguments fail. Democrats do, but not decent people.
 
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Ladoga said:
I knew it stunk in here for a long time, but excusing the murder of 60 million Chinese by the government should be the very last straw for you. Geesh, China and mass murder means what? The very one that folks have mentioned here. Do you deny it? Excuse it for the sake of the advancement of good old Communism?
Click to expand...

Don't forget all that Mao souvenir crap of the 80's. I decided not to dine at a Chinese restaurant because Mao images were around. That is like a German restaurant displaying Hitler. I've been to a handful of Cuban restaurants and none of them had pictures of Castro or Che. Probably because they are owned by people who sacrificed everything to escape his ruthless regime.
 
CO. Hoosier said:
Reckless? Do you think China will invade Taiwan, nuke it, or something cuz of this phone call? Or maybe China will become more aggressive in the South China sea with building artificial Islands and claiming them as Chinese territory or rattle their sabers at Japan or something, or maybe punish our economy with currency manipulation . . . . .oh wait.

We sell $40+ billion in arms to Taiwan, we have robust trade with Taiwan, US citizens can travel there without restriction, US companies can do business there without specific restrictions, Uncle Sam has guaranteed Taiwan's security and we are otherwise militarily intertwined with them. Seems to me Trump as eschewed protocol for practicality. So what? That is okay with me.
Click to expand...

I like Taiwan a lot. People are very friendly. Had a great trip there. The reality is there population is tiny and they aren't such an important country.
 
The Taiwan call does not bother me, but I am surprised at one aspect. We have been told that Trump's bromance with Putin is great, we should open that up. Putin is every bit the dictator anyone in China is. I don't get why we should let Putin conquer whatever he wants and be tough against China. If we want to talk tough against both or neither, I get it. If it has to be one though, Putin is much more a direct threat to our NATO allies.

The conversations I found more annoying was telling the Pakistani leader what a great leader he is. And then telling the Philippiness leader what a great job he is doing against drugs when they are killing people without trial.
 
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Noodle said:
I think the more significant aspect is China's muted reaction, chalking it up mostly to Trump's inexperience combined with Taiwan taking advantage of that inexperience. When dealing with China the reaction is far more telling than the preceding act itself.
Click to expand...

Replace "ignorance" for "inexperience" and I'd agree with you. (And I'll ignore Trump's possible business interest in Taiwan.) I would be surprised if before the phone call Trump could have explained the One China policy, and why in many ways it's mutually beneficial to China, Taiwan and the US. His talking to Tsai Ing-wen clearly was not part of any new approach to Taiwanese / Chinese relationships -- he has yet to assemble a foreign policy team -- it was due to a lack of understanding of how and why the world operates as it does. Trump's Secretary of State appointment will be critical, but I fear foreign leaders will know they can undermine things by going directly to Trump, who is reactionary and in way over his head when it comes to foreign policy.

And for those interested in a primer on the One China policy, here's a good read.
 
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blynn said:
Replace "ignorance" for "inexperience" and I'd agree with you. (And I'll ignore Trump's possible business interest in Taiwan.) I would be surprised if before the phone call Trump could have explained the One China policy, and why in many ways it's mutually beneficial to China, Taiwan and the US. His talking to Tsai Ing-wen clearly was not part of any new approach to Taiwanese / Chinese relationships -- he has yet to assemble a foreign policy team -- it was due to a lack of understanding of how and why the world operates as it does. Trump's Secretary of State appointment will be critical, but I fear foreign leaders will know they can undermine things by going directly to Trump, who is reactionary and in way over his head when it comes to foreign policy.

And for those interested in a primer on the One China policy, here's a good read.
Click to expand...
Inexperience is simply a more polite way word for ignorance. But in all seriousness, I think you are right.
 
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