My thoughts on our NATO friends.

[Bill4411]

Congress doesn't seem to hold the same contempt for NATO that Trump does as they just passed a resolution 97-2 in the Senate in support of it.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/11/6280...-with-pushback-from-republicans-and-democrats

Democratic Congressional leaders issued a rare joint statement harshly condemning Trump's remarks. House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi and her Senate counterpart, Chuck Schumer said:

"President Trump's brazen insults and denigration of one of America's most steadfast allies, Germany, is an embarrassment. His behavior this morning is another profoundly disturbing signal that the President is more loyal to President Putin than to our NATO allies."

"Every time I've met with our allies in Europe I've raised those same concerns about Nord Stream II," the name of the pipeline, Ryan said. "The president is right to point out that our NATO allies need to adhere to their commitments which is 2 percent of GDP for defense. Germany is the largest economy in the EU. Germany should be committing 2 percent to defense like they agreed to at the Wales conference.
While Germany has not yet met that goal, it has until 2024 to do so.

Still, that appears not to be enough for Trump, who told NATO leaders Wednesday they should be spending 4 percent of their GDP on defense. American officials say the U.S. is itself short of that mark, spending 3.3 percent of its GDP on defense. Trump made the same demand of NATO allies at last year's summit.

 

[Rakkasan29]

He’s clearly not a combat troop - the thing he said to me proved that.

Everybody wants to be Infantry until it's time to do Infantry sh!t.

Apologies, didn't mean to swoop into this thread and sharp shoot.

 

[Quix0te]

Obama Sec of Defense Robert Gates in 2011:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jun/10/nato-dismal-future-pentagon-chief

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c9e7f49deb7f

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Everybody wants to be Infantry until it's time to do Infantry sh!t.

Apologies, didn't mean to swoop into this thread and sharp shoot.

The engineers will be here to help you dig your holes - oops

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Then they do not need our presence. We can do like we did with Crimea under Obama and sanction the Russians whenever they act up. Europe has apparently got this because their military spending is more than Russia.

As an aside, one thing I never see compared is how much of that spending gap is comprised of salary and benefits paid to soldiers and how much is actual equipment. Western countries seem to spend more to try and bring soldiers home, our adversaries seem less worried about that and things like BAH, BAS, healthcare, and salary.

It is true we spend more on salaries, healthcare and also on safety. On the other hand, that should show up as increased morale. The Russian army is huge. I am curious how well they would fight outside their borders. I am even more curious how well they can fight outside their borders. In other words, their abilities may be limited by both morale and by logistics.

I have no issues with trying to get Europe to spend more. I think the problem is this has become a Festivus "airing of grievances". Between this, the trade policies, the invitation to Macron to leave the EU, we are driving too many wedges into the relationship. We all know how it is, someone tells you one thing about yourself that's negative it is easy to take it as constructive criticism. They come with a laundry list, and it is easy to get defensive and everything grinds to a halt.

We see the same problems with China. It appears China may have softened some of their sanctions on North Korea. Maybe we needed to prioritize there as well. We certainly are not playing the long game, we are pushing all-in across the board. I can't say it won't work, I can just say hail mary's seldom work.

 

[Quix0te]

Far-left Yahoo News: "Trump is right about the NATO deadbeats".

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/trump-right-nato-deadbeats-185950607.html

 

[Bill4411]

Far-left Yahoo News: "Trump is right about the NATO deadbeats".

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/trump-right-nato-deadbeats-185950607.html

"The United States has been the biggest contributor to NATO since Western nations founded the alliance in 1949 to help prevent any more world wars and shield Europe from the Soviet Union."

Meanwhile Trump is talking about how he gets along better with Putin than the other leaders...

 

[Quix0te]

"The United States has been the biggest contributor to NATO since Western nations founded the alliance in 1949 to help prevent any more world wars and shield Europe from the Soviet Union."

Yep, that's exactly what Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer said.

 

[Bill4411]

Yep, that's exactly what Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer said.

Well that’s better company than our Quisling leader exhibits.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

You’re damned right I do. 28 years in the Army and you’re using Navy and Air Force terms all over the place. The other forces ran a train on you.

I haven’t read it all so what Navy terms have been used? I’ll verify those. As a CGSC grad, I can do some Army terminology too.

 

[Quix0te]

You’re damned right I do. 28 years in the Army and you’re using Navy and Air Force terms all over the place. The other forces ran a train on you.

Most of my career was in joint units and indeed, I did not serve 28 years in the US Army. It was actually 23 years in the Army and five years in the USAF. It's a long story.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I haven’t read it all so what Navy terms have been used? I’ll verify those. As a CGSC grad, I can do some Army terminology too.

I can’t recall all of them so I’ll drop the joke. But I can assure you Infantry shooters don’t tak about “their six.” That’s flyboy talk.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Most of my career was in joint units and indeed, I did not serve 28 years in the US Army. It was actually 23 years in the Army and five years in the USAF. It's a long story.

Is this where you confirm my data mining that you were Intelligence?

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I graduated from USAF SOS and Air Command and Staff and Army War College. Take me up on my wager or STFU.

I wasn’t attacking you. You’re picking a fight with the wrong person. I’m just observing at this point.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I can’t recall all of them so I’ll drop the joke. But I can assure you Infantry shooters don’t tak about “their six.” That’s flyboy talk.

Actually, I think things like “watch your six” have spilled outside the aviation community. I haven’t read all this thread so I’m not exactly sure what the spat is about.

 

[iu_a_att]

Actually, I think things like “watch your six” have spilled outside the aviation community. I haven’t read all this thread so I’m not exactly sure what the spat is about.

The last proposal on the table was offered by Quixote who suggested that we should remove our military assets from Germany (and everywhere else in Europe?) and position them in Poland instead. The rationale was that Poland was willing to pay us $2 billion (one time payment of every year...haha) and that if Russian invades Europe it will do so through Poland. More generally, Col. Quixote was quite concerned that our European allies needed to pony up more for NATO. Many of us didn't agree that slapping around our European allies while cozying up to Putin was a good strategy right now. When challenged about the wisdom of his suggestions Quixote claimed expertise as a commander of NATO forces. I don't think we have heard from the Naval side yet so maybe you want to weigh in.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Actually, I think things like “watch your six” have spilled outside the aviation community. I haven’t read all this thread so I’m not exactly sure what the spat is about.

No doubt they have but they’re not part of Army maneuver troops’ lexicon.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

The last proposal on the table was offered by Quixote who suggested that we should remove our military assets from Germany (and everywhere else in Europe?) and position them in Poland instead. The rationale was that Poland was willing to pay us $2 billion (one time payment of every year...haha) and that if Russian invades Europe it will do so through Poland. More generally, Col. Quixote was quite concerned that our European allies needed to pony up more for NATO. Many of us didn't agree that slapping around our European allies while cozying up to Putin was a good strategy right now. When challenged about the wisdom of his suggestions Quixote claimed expertise as a commander of NATO forces. I don't think we have heard from the Naval side yet so maybe you want to weigh in.

I do think we should move forces into Poland and reduce our presence in Germany. The front between NATO and Russia has moved to Poland so it makes sense. There is a lot of support in the Pentagon for that too. However, Putin is opposed to that so I don’t know if Trump would ever approve that.

I think NATO countries should spend 2% of GDP on their defense just as the last two administrations have thought. Trump has been a total ass in the way he’s been talking to NATO countries about this. NATO is our most important alliance.

 

[Quix0te]

When challenged about the wisdom of his suggestions Quixote claimed expertise as a commander of NATO forces.

I did not say that. You are lying.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I do think we should move forces into Poland and reduce our presence in Germany. The front between NATO and Russia has moved to Poland so it makes sense. There is a lot of support in the Pentagon for that too. However, Putin is opposed to that so I don’t know if Trump would ever approve that.

I think NATO countries should spend 2% of GDP on their defense just as the last two administrations have thought. Trump has been a total ass in the way he’s been talking to NATO countries about this. NATO is our most important alliance.

Nobody disputes that NATO allies should try to meet a goal they all set multi-laterally on the 2%. However, Germany has 4x the GDP of Poland. And thus they are far more beneficial to NATO than is Poland if they are over 1% of GDP spent.

I have no problem moving some troops and assets into Poland but not at the cost of leaving Germany altogether. If shit hits the fan, Germany is a legit military ally that can help a real fight. Poland will be a also-ran.

Only idiots, or armchair QB commanders, forsake a strong ally for a weaker one if they can’t fully get their way with the strong ally.

 

[iu_a_att]

I do think we should move forces into Poland and reduce our presence in Germany. The front between NATO and Russia has moved to Poland so it makes sense. There is a lot of support in the Pentagon for that too. However, Putin is opposed to that so I don’t know if Trump would ever approve that.

I think NATO countries should spend 2% of GDP on their defense just as the last two administrations have thought. Trump has been a total ass in the way he’s been talking to NATO countries about this. NATO is our most important alliance.

Well, there you have an example of a civil dialogue. Hats off to the Navy!
Seems to me that our tactics vis NATO should be driven by our strategic objectives. Trump's objectives seem to be the destruction of NATO and the liberal European project more generally. I don't see why he would consider moving troops to Poland against Russian wishes. I guess that is along the lines of what you are saying too. In my view our strategy should be using NATO to defend and reinforce the basic liberal (small d) democratic order that has be the project of administrations of both parties since the end of WWII. Keeping troops and materials in Germany gives us some influence with the Germans...that seems to me a good idea for obvious historical reasons.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Nobody disputes that NATO allies should try to meet a goal they all set multi-laterally on the 2%. However, Germany has 4x the GDP of Poland. And thus they are far more beneficial to NATO than is Poland if they are over 1% of GDP spent.

I have no problem moving some troops and assets into Poland but not at the cost of leaving Germany altogether. If shit hits the fan, Germany is a legit military ally that can help a real fight. Poland will be a also-ran.

Only idiots, or armchair QB commanders, forsake a strong ally for a weaker one of thy can’t fully get their way with the strong ally.

Well NATO is our ally and the front for NATO is in Poland. NATO already has forces in Poland. We should have some of ours too. Of course we should keep some in Germany too. Air assets don't need to be in Poland - in fact, they shouldn't be that close to the front. The bottom line is NATO is important and we should position our forces within NATO the best way we can in the defense of NATO. Like I said, though there is a lot of agreement in the Pentagon that we need to increase our presence in Poland, it hasn't been approved for action. If Trump truly is in Putin's pocket, and he might be, it won't happen because Putin very much does not want us (or NATO in general) to increase the forces in Poland.

 

[iu_a_att]

I did not say that. You are lying.

Excluding my 28 years of active duty as a US Army officer which included serving five years with NATO in Europe, of which two years were indeed as commander of a unit, you are spot on. Please do tell us about your military credentials.

I thought you meant that you commanded some NATO forces in Europe. My approach towards those who insist on trumpeting their military experience is to politely thank them for their service. So thank you. I have never served and I am grateful to those who have. But, frankly, credentials are practically worthless here. If you have expertise you will demonstrate it rather than claim it.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Well NATO is our ally and the front for NATO is in Poland. NATO already has forces in Poland. We should have some of ours too. Of course we should keep some in Germany too. Air assets don't need to be in Poland - in fact, they shouldn't be that close to the front. The bottom line is NATO is important and we should position our forces within NATO the best way we can in the defense of NATO. Like I said, though there is a lot of agreement in the Pentagon that we need to increase our presence in Poland, it hasn't been approved for action. If Trump truly is in Putin's pocket, and he might be, it won't happen because Putin very much does not want us (or NATO in general) to increase the forces in Poland.

As usual-I agree with you.

 

[iu_a_att]

No no no asswipe. You said "When challenged about the wisdom of his suggestions Quixote claimed expertise as a commander of NATO forces." I did nothing of the kind. I did not claim expertise as a commander of NATO forces. That is shit generated within your goofy head.

If you take the time to read through the thread again, your dog-faced buffoon DrHoops ridiculed my suggestion about reducing NATO support by mocking me as a NATO commander. He didn't know that i was in fact the commander of an Army unit within NATO. If you doubt that and want to take me up on the wager that I posted above, please say so.

Frankly, I don't give a shit whether you are a rude homeless guy posting from the library or a rude Herr Henry Kissinger Von Klauswitz posting directly from the fifth floor above ground of the pentagon. What I can't square is your simultaneous desire to strengthen NATO (by increasing spending and strategically repositioning troops to rebuff Russian threats) with your support for Trump's abuse of our central allies including Germany while he advances Putin's interests in destroying the liberal European order (including NATO) we have worked so hard to build.

Your thoughts about NATO, Poland and 2% GDP contributions are, perhaps, a relic of your earlier life as NATO commander Col Quixote and as a traditional conservative. Trump's abuse of our NATO allies and his cozying up to Putin signal a new era that you haven't caught up to. INRanger and Aloha have caught up...you should too.

 

[hoosboot]

Scroll back up and read what you posted. You are calling my bluff. I'm gonna ramrod that right up your ass. Any amount you wish to wager, $5K minimum, cash, we meet at a public place e.g. Arni's Pizza, Columbus and hand over the wagers to a "normal" neutral party such as Happy Goat or Marvin. I present my credentials, NP gives me my winnings, I give NP $1,000 for his efforts and you go running back to this forum to have another tantrum. Do we have a deal?

I'm amused by the way your continual reference to your credentials is not glorifying yourself, but Ranger merely posting is somehow him continually glorifying himself. I'm amused by your lack of reading comprehension (hint: you can't even figure out who called your bluff). I'm amused by how internet fake tough guy you are. I'm amused by your fascination with my ass. And I'm amused that you think it's me who is having a tantrum.

Today was a tough day, so I appreciate you lightening the mood for everyone.

 

[sglowrider]

This sums up Trump.
Everyone's looking towards the future but he is looking towards the past.

 

[sglowrider]

Wasted on someone who has no sense of humour unless it's at other people's expense.

 

[sglowrider]

If the WH is to be believed, Kelly is a disappointing Marine. Snowflake.

 

[Lucy01]

If the WH is to be believed, Kelly is a disappointing Marine. Snowflake.

View embedded media

Why aren’t you posting about how Trump getting the other NATO
Country’s to anti up and pay there share? Trump just reported everyone agreed to pay more

 

[twenty02]

Why aren’t you posting about how Trump getting the other NATO
Country’s to anti up and pay there share? Trump just reported everyone agreed to pay more

No they didn't. He gaslighted you again.

 

[Quix0te]

I thought you meant that you commanded some NATO forces in Europe. My approach towards those who insist on trumpeting their military experience is to politely thank them for their service. So thank you. I have never served and I am grateful to those who have. But, frankly, credentials are practically worthless here. If you have expertise you will demonstrate it rather than claim it.

Again, you are lying. I did have a 28 year military career but you said "When challenged about the wisdom of his suggestions Quixote claimed expertise as a commander of NATO forces."

I did not do that. You are lying.There is nothing that I posted in which I claimed "expertise" based upon my military career. It is widely believed that our NATO allies have not doing their share.for three decades.

 

[Quix0te]

Well NATO is our ally and the front for NATO is in Poland. NATO already has forces in Poland. We should have some of ours too. Of course we should keep some in Germany too. Air assets don't need to be in Poland - in fact, they shouldn't be that close to the front. The bottom line is NATO is important and we should position our forces within NATO the best way we can in the defense of NATO. Like I said, though there is a lot of agreement in the Pentagon that we need to increase our presence in Poland, it hasn't been approved for action. If Trump truly is in Putin's pocket, and he might be, it won't happen because Putin very much does not want us (or NATO in general) to increase the forces in Poland.

Gosh, no one liked it when I said exactly the same thing.

 

[37Hoosier]

Why aren’t you posting about how Trump getting the other NATO
Country’s to anti up and pay there share? Trump just reported everyone agreed to pay more

He also reported the wall was being constructed, North Korea was no longer a nuclear threat, he didn't grab women by their poosays, his daughter was a nice piece of ass, he had the biggest inaugural crowds, and he had accomplished more than any president in 100 days cept maybe Lincoln, & that Canada attacked the capital in the way back...and so forth. Basically he lies a lot,,, unless he really had sex with his daughter, & judging by this families moral compass that might be business as usual.

 

[twenty02]

He also reported the wall was being constructed, North Korea was no longer a nuclear threat, he didn't grab women by their poosays, his daughter was a nice piece of ass, he had the biggest inaugural crowds, and he had accomplished more than any president in 100 days cept maybe Lincoln, & that Canada attacked the capital in the way back...and so forth. Basically he lies a lot,,, unless he really had sex with his daughter, & judging by this families moral compass that might be business as usual.

And Reagan didn't win Wisconsin. Third or fourth time he's dropped that one.

 

[MonroeCity]

There should be a session for finance ministers at the meeting. Maybe this has happened and I didn't see it reported. Speaking to the finance ministers about our belief about the importance of military investment might help to secure more defense spending over the long term.

 

[sglowrider]

He fixed NATO in less than a day. The man is amazing.


Truly a stable genius.

 

[sglowrider]

Trump Strategy:

1 - Create an injustice out of thin air, get Fox to stir it up
2 - Disregard any evidence to the contrary
3 - Repeat injustice and how you’re going to solve it
4 - Wait a few days
5 - Claim to have solved it
6 - Disregard any evidence to the contrary
7 - Repeat claim that you’ve fixed everything
8 - Celebrate
9 - Beg Melania for a celebratory blowy
10 - Give up and go watch Fox and Friends whilst cry-wanking into an Ivanka Trump branded sock.

 

[Hoosier_Hack]

He also reported the wall was being constructed, North Korea was no longer a nuclear threat, he didn't grab women by their poosays, his daughter was a nice piece of ass, he had the biggest inaugural crowds, and he had accomplished more than any president in 100 days cept maybe Lincoln, & that Canada attacked the capital in the way back...and so forth. Basically he lies a lot,,, unless he really had sex with his daughter, & judging by this families moral compass that might be business as usual.

and yet.... he is still your President.... he beat you guys.... how? How did that happen? It’s like like sitting down with a 5 year old and losing a game of checkers

 

[Marvin the Martian]

and yet.... he is still your President.... he beat you guys.... how? How did that happen? It’s like like sitting down with a 5 year old and losing a game of checkers

And he beat almost a couple dozen Republicans when he wasn't even a Republican himself.