And...did I see a woman in combat for Norway?!? Tell me I’m having a horrible nightmare!!!!
At LEAST they’re not from a shithole country!
At LEAST they’re not from a shithole country!
My thoughts on our NATO friends.
- Thread starter Rockport Zebra
- Start date
Nonetheless there is no question that most of the people in Crimea were indeed pro-Russian and that the majority would have voted to rejoin Russia rather than stay with Ukraine.
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-crimea-rising-separatism/25268303.html
So, if a majority of people in Arizona would rather be part of Mexico you will be cool if Mexico invades and annexes Arizona.
Apples and oranges. Here's the history of Crimea.
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/why-did-russia-give-away-crimea-sixty-years-ago
Why don’t they just move to Russia, then? Crimea, love it or leave it.
Wouldn't your "principle" justify the Nazi attack on Poland to recover Danzig (now known as Gdansk)...after all a majority of the citizens wanted to be part of Germany?
Stalin removed the majority of the indigenous people’s during WWII and moved a bunch of Russians into replace them. The crimes that Russia perpetrated on Ukraine are some of the greatest in human history. He killed 5-7 million before WWII and between Hitler and Stalin another 10 million or so perished during the war. It’s one of the reasons Krushev decided to give Ukraine Crimea, he may have been a ruthless killer but even he felt sorry for Ukraine but apparently Putin doesn’t.
The whole thing is ridiculous both Russia and the US are supposed to protect Ukraine’s borders as a condition for giving up the third largest reserve of nuclear weapons which is why no country will probably ever agree to do it again. As a treaty doesn’t appear to be worth the paper they are written on.
Did the Poles vote on it? And don't forget the Soviets invaded from the east at the same time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_(1939–1945)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014
The Ukranians didn't vote to cede Crimea to Russia.
The fact the Soviets invaded Poland at the same time as the Germans is relevant how?
Despots always view the law and treaties as binding only on their opponents.
The Crimeans voted whether they wanted to be part of Russia or the Ukraine. Do you understand now?
The fact the Soviets invaded Poland at the same time as the Germans is relevant now because that is what the OP is about: Polish security. Poland wants US troops stationed in Poland so that they won't again be the victims of Russian aggression. The Poles know it can happen again.
Even though the astute military strategist DrHoops thinks it's wiser to keep NATO forces where they were in 1985 rather than at NATO's new borders, it seems that most of you fellows have more sense than that.
They are usually completely amoral and have no respect for anyone.
No they were invaded and with armed guards they voted to join Russia. What are you some sort of Russian bot?
It was a Hobson's Choice. Do you want to be Russian or do you want to be Ukrainian?
But again, back to the OP. Should we continue shouldering the brunt of NATO expenses while only four other members contribute the pledged 2% GDP? And Poland will spend $2 billion to base US troops in that country. That certainly makes more sense that keeping them in Germany and Italy.
Yeah, because none of our Supreme Allied Commanders of NATO know what’s best. Then along cane QuixOte and old Bone Spurs who’ve bounced it off of Putin and he told us what’s best for America!
God bless you, QuixOte! And don’t recline too far back on your BarcaLounger!
God bless you, QuixOte! And don’t recline too far back on your BarcaLounger!
I want a strong NATO alliance to face down a growing Russian threat. The American right is more in sync with Russia's authoritarian ethnic nationalism than it is with our democratic allies. From my perspective now is the time to ramp up the pressure on Putin to back down. Now is the time to pressure Poland and Hungary to move away from the ethnic nationalist authoritarian path they are on. The right, instead, thinks now is the time to appease and facilitate Putin's agenda while encouraging authoritarianism in Poland and Hungary. They think that pressure needs to be ramped up on our liberal democratic allies. From the right's perspective it makes no sense to have NATO at all...why move troops from Germany to Poland when we could bring them home and position them to threaten Canada and Mexico? Alternatively, we could use those troops to invade Iran.
Do you really think we are "helping" Europe just out of goodness of our heart? Is it possible that we are doing it to help us as well? NATO started after USSR became a force to reckon. Europee became a buffer zone for us. If there was no NATO and USSR invade European countries, what do you think would've happened?
I'm coming to the conclusion that every one of you will continue to duck the question. Should we accept Poland's invitation to relocate the gist of US Forces Europe (tanks) to the $2 billion base that they would build for us there? Should we pressure the laggard NATO members (23 of 28) who refuse to pay their promised share for defense? Or should we continue being schmucks and pay to defend a wealthy Europe because Trump is the first US president to call 'em out and your hate for Trump over-rides any reasoned analysis of the situation?
Worry not, the Fulda Gap remains secure. The French Army is on high alert and Denmark has got your six.
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What would happen if they get tired of Trump's antics along with the arrogance of his supporters, and
1) secede from NATO and form "United Europe,"
or
2) align with USSR aka Russia,
or
3) even align with China?
Would Trump and his supporters say "Hallelluja" or "Oops"?
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I’ll raise you...er...um....Poland...
Worry not, the Fulda Gap remains secure. The French Army is on high alert and Denmark has got your six.
Yes, no one will ever notice Russia massing tanks on the border of Poland!!! You are too much, man. 
Are you living in 1930?
And what would you care anyway? Trumpsters would rationalize a Russian invasion away, just like you do Russia’s invasion of OUR ALLIES, Ukraine.
Republicans LOVE Russia.
Are you living in 1930?And what would you care anyway? Trumpsters would rationalize a Russian invasion away, just like you do Russia’s invasion of OUR ALLIES, Ukraine.
Republicans LOVE Russia.
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Trump’s supporters do what they’re told to do, then they twist themselves into knots justifying it.
Are these same type of people who used to yell "Commie!" at anyone studying Russian for instance? Yes, my ex-wife majored in Russian Literature at IU.Yes, no one will ever notice Russia massing tanks on the border of Poland!!! You are too much, man.
And what would you care anyway! Trumpsters would rationalize a Russian invasion away, just like you do Russia’s invasion of OUR ALLIES, Ukraine.
Republicans LOVE Russia.
They haven’t been told what to do about that. We have to wait to see what Putin tells Trump in his one on one meeting where no one else is allowed to listen. (Seems perfectly normal right before midterms).
Ever heard of the Maginot line-that didn’t work so well as the Germans just went around it. I guess it would depend on what military strategists would say but I doubt they would want us to put all our eggs in one basket.
Bill, keep in mind, QuixOte COMMANDED NATO forces in Europe eek. He knows what he’s talking about. Everything comes down to Poland!
eek. He knows what he’s talking about. Everything comes down to Poland!How many times do I have to tell you I don't watch FOX news ever. Dip Shit. What you know about NATO and combat units?
The amount of times on this board I've been called a Trumptard (didn't vote for him), Fox News parrot (don't have cable), or some other such nonsense.
They have to demagogue you to feel like they're winning the argument. Just let them have it and move on.
We've talked about this before, but ironically, Ukraine doesn't have much of a historical claim to Crimea. The indigenous people removed by the Soviets were primarily Tatars. If it weren't for Kruschev, there'd be no reason to connect Crimea to Ukraine at all.
Of course, Russia's annexation was still illegal as all hell.
We know there have been tensions between Russia and Ukraine as well as Russia and Georgia. We know the Baltic States keep their Russian dictionaries close by. Allowing the grab of Crimea sends a terrible message to all those other countries. This even though, as you point out, Ukraine has no good claim.
It is almost like Texas. If Crimea had fought for independence then joined Russia after a couple years, it would have probably worked.
I am thinking after the summit Trump is likely to push to end the sanctions. Latvians will move their Russian dictionaries even closer.
Of course, even the way Texas did it still ended in war.
There's nothing good that comes from the world sitting back and accepting Russia's annexation of Crimea, but I really don't see an alternative. I think it is a fait accompli.
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