Legaliazation: Unintended Consequences

[IUCrazy2]

The New Weed Whackers

Californians who opened their voters’ guides to the state’s 2010 elections could read a pitch from backers of Proposition 19, an initiative designed to legalize the recreational use of marijuana. The argument: that “Prohibition [of marijuana] has created a violent criminal market run by...

www.city-journal.org

One of the largest arguments for the legalization of marijuana has been that it would be accompanied by a decrease in crime and that the state would see taxation benefits from the same.

Based on the states that have led the charge for legalization, that doesn't appear to be the case at this time. The black markets in those states have exploded and in the case of California, has led to theft of natural resources and additional crimes related to skipping out on farming rules and regulations.

 

[larsIU]

The New Weed Whackers

Californians who opened their voters’ guides to the state’s 2010 elections could read a pitch from backers of Proposition 19, an initiative designed to legalize the recreational use of marijuana. The argument: that “Prohibition [of marijuana] has created a violent criminal market run by...

www.city-journal.org

One of the largest arguments for the legalization of marijuana has been that it would be accompanied by a decrease in crime and that the state would see taxation benefits from the same.

Based on the states that have led the charge for legalization, that doesn't appear to be the case at this time. The black markets in those states have exploded and in the case of California, has led to theft of natural resources and additional crimes related to skipping out on farming rules and regulations.

It's only been 6 years since CA legalized, 7 for Oregon. We Americans do want our problems solved RIGHT NOW though.

It's still in the baby steps phase. Mistakes will be made but I do believe we should ride out the bumps b/c more police, more guns, more armored vehicles just cannot be the answer anymore. We know that hasn't worked.

Let's live in the legalized skin for a generation and see where we're at then.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The New Weed Whackers

Californians who opened their voters’ guides to the state’s 2010 elections could read a pitch from backers of Proposition 19, an initiative designed to legalize the recreational use of marijuana. The argument: that “Prohibition [of marijuana] has created a violent criminal market run by...

www.city-journal.org

One of the largest arguments for the legalization of marijuana has been that it would be accompanied by a decrease in crime and that the state would see taxation benefits from the same.

Based on the states that have led the charge for legalization, that doesn't appear to be the case at this time. The black markets in those states have exploded and in the case of California, has led to theft of natural resources and additional crimes related to skipping out on farming rules and regulations.

Good find. I agree with Lars, maybe not enough time has passed. But maybe it doesn't work. It seems to make sense economically, if drugs are legalized the cost drops and the incentive to grow illegal should become less. But maybe it doesn't work like that. It seems alcohol did, but maybe marijuana is different.

 

[IUCrazy2]

It's only been 6 years since CA legalized, 7 for Oregon. We Americans do want our problems solved RIGHT NOW though.

It's still in the baby steps phase. Mistakes will be made but I do believe we should ride out the bumps b/c more police, more guns, more armored vehicles just cannot be the answer anymore. We know that hasn't worked.

Let's live in the legalized skin for a generation and see where we're at then.

That is the thing though. Now legalization, at least in the short term, is necessitating more law enforcement involvement (based on the experience of those who have legalized).

 

[IUCrazy2]

Good find. I agree with Lars, maybe not enough time has passed. But maybe it doesn't work. It seems to make sense economically, if drugs are legalized the cost drops and the incentive to grow illegal should become less. But maybe it doesn't work like that. It seems alcohol did, but maybe marijuana is different.

For it to work, you have to make it more of a hassle to illegally obtain it.

 

[larsIU]

Good find. I agree with Lars, maybe not enough time has passed. But maybe it doesn't work. It seems to make sense economically, if drugs are legalized the cost drops and the incentive to grow illegal should become less. But maybe it doesn't work like that. It seems alcohol did, but maybe marijuana is different.

Has the cost dropped? I don't know. I live in Indiana.

Anybody here have an answer to that question. Forgive me for not looking up pricing on my work laptop.

 

[larsIU]

That is the thing though. Now legalization, at least in the short term, is necessitating more law enforcement involvement (based on the experience of those who have legalized).

Hopefully it's just short term. Bootleggers largely disappeared after prohibition but it took 20 years.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Good find. I agree with Lars, maybe not enough time has passed. But maybe it doesn't work. It seems to make sense economically, if drugs are legalized the cost drops and the incentive to grow illegal should become less. But maybe it doesn't work like that. It seems alcohol did, but maybe marijuana is different.

The salient part of legalization is decriminalization of possession. That’s working

 

[IUCrazy2]

Has the cost dropped? I don't know. I live in Indiana.

Anybody here have an answer to that question. Forgive me for not looking up pricing on my work laptop.

The article says that the black market pot is still cheaper than the legal stuff. I think that is particularly true in CA because farming there is pretty heavily regulated and that comes with a cost. The black market folks are not playing by those rules so they don't have to worry about those costs or charging taxes.

 

[IUCrazy2]

The salient part of legalization is decriminalization of possession. That’s working

Is it? I mean there is decriminalization of possession, so if that is your goal it is working. However, in places like California, crime is up but arrests are down. I would be willing to bet that there is an awful large correlation between those who used to get picked up for possession and the commission of other crimes.

Edit to add: I don't really care about pot, whatever, but I do think that the legalization push is based more on the "I personally want to get high" argument then it is on all the other arguments put forth. Bring up legalization to some people (quite a few I have personally come across) and you get transported back to being 17 and how kids act about scoring alcohol.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Is it? I mean there is decriminalization of possession, so if that is your goal it is working. However, in places like California, crime is up but arrests are down. I would be willing to bet that there is an awful large correlation between those who used to get picked up for possession and the commission of other crimes.

Edit to add: I don't really care about pot, whatever, but I do think that the legalization push is based more on the "I personally want to get high" argument then it is on all the other arguments put forth. Bring up legalization to some people (quite a few I have personally come across) and you get transported back to being 17 and how kids act about scoring alcohol.

So you are saying that possession was like a gateway arrest/intro to getting bad guys who had committed other crimes? but for the possession you wouldn't have gotten to them? Not sure I am construing your post right

 

[IUclover]

Edit to add: I don't really care about pot, whatever, but I do think that the legalization push is based more on the "I personally want to get high" argument then it is on all the other arguments put forth. Bring up legalization to some people (quite a few I have personally come across) and you get transported back to being 17 and how kids act about scoring alcohol.

For me, I think it's more about convenience and not having the fear of being arrested for possession. Have you ever had to go to some sketchy dude's house to pick some up or not know the quality you're going to get (where did this come from)? Then you're driving home worrying that every cop knows you have some in your car.

And the cost in CO is actually less than what I remember paying in Indiana, plus the quality is significantly better.

Also a much healthier option than drinking alcohol, at least for me.

 

[BigDoggyDogDude]

The article says that the black market pot is still cheaper than the legal stuff. I think that is particularly true in CA because farming there is pretty heavily regulated and that comes with a cost. The black market folks are not playing by those rules so they don't have to worry about those costs or charging taxes.

This is my experience as well
anecdotally. In Chicago what you get from the dispensary is taxed so heavily as to make it cost prohibitive.

Most of the people I know who are big weed doers are still using some dealer connection they’ve been using for years.

 

[mcmurtry66]

This is my experience as well
anecdotally. In Chicago what you get from the dispensary is taxed so heavily as to make it cost prohibitive.

Most of the people I know who are big weed doers are still using some dealer connection they’ve been using for years.

So the suits and suburbans are getting gummies from dispensaries and the potheads are still using dealers? Or is that stereotyping and way off?

 

[Baller23Boogie]

So the suits and suburbans are getting gummies from dispensaries and the potheads are still using dealers? Or is that stereotyping and way off?

The people I know here in Indiana all go to Michigan to get their weed. It's more potent and you know what you're getting.

Doesn't matter if they are a suit or not, people are making the trip up north.

 

[Indianaftw]

The people I know here in Indiana all go to Michigan to get their weed. It's more potent and you know what you're getting.

Doesn't matter if they are a suit or not, people are making the trip up north.

I just spoke with my oldest that lives up near michi. That article doesn't even mention Michigan. You can go to Michigan and buy an ounce of 28 joints pre rolled for 69 bucks. How is the black market gonna beat that? It must be much more expensive out west. This part of the article baffled me, but now a days???

Some of those arrested were Chinese nationals who had come to the Denver area, purchased suburban houses, and used the basements for a coordinated growing program. They then used social media accounts to launder the money from their sales back to China.

 

[Indianaftw]

The article says that the black market pot is still cheaper than the legal stuff. I think that is particularly true in CA because farming there is pretty heavily regulated and that comes with a cost. The black market folks are not playing by those rules so they don't have to worry about those costs or charging taxes.

Cali, Oregon and Colorado is where the black markets have taken off. Oregon sounds like the wild west back in the 1800's with shootouts.

 

[IUCrazy2]

So you are saying that possession was like a gateway arrest/intro to getting bad guys who had committed other crimes? but for the possession you wouldn't have gotten to them? Not sure I am construing your post right

Possession was a way of interacting with them. "I smell weed in your car, what else you got going on?"

You will eventually get to them when they commit the crimes you are finally willing to truly prosecute for. Most of the murder suspects you see get picked up have a rap sheet of petty things in their past. Places like California started with decriminalizing weed possession and they have kept adding the "minor" things to the list of items that they won't prosecute anymore. Meanwhile crime continues to rise.

I think proactive policing is more effective than reactive. Not being able to stop someone doing something that is tied to other criminal behavior potentially removes one of those proactive tools.

 

[Baller23Boogie]

I just spoke with my oldest that lives up near michi. That article doesn't even mention Michigan. You can go to Michigan and buy an ounce of 28 joints pre rolled for 69 bucks. How is the black market gonna beat that? It must be much more expensive out west. This part of the article baffled me, but now a days???

Some of those arrested were Chinese nationals who had come to the Denver area, purchased suburban houses, and used the basements for a coordinated growing program. They then used social media accounts to launder the money from their sales back to China.

You can't beat it.

At least where I'm from, people aren't buying off the streets anymore. People go to Michigan because they know what they are getting is going to be good. It's all tested. I went to Detroit over the weekend and stopped in Coldwater and they had 16 dispensaries in or around that one little town for rec use. Weed has that town thriving with the locals and out of towners coming through.

Nobody around here buys off the street. Even the guys that do try and sell, they are getting the high end stuff from Michigan and flipping it.

The west coast might have a black market problem, but from what I've seen, that's not happening here.

 

[twenty02]

This is ridiculous.... the industry is barely beyond the infant stage.

Hell, those in the industry can't even use the legal finance/ banking system, at this point. And getting a license in many of these states is exorbitantly difficult and cost prohibitive.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Possession was a way of interacting with them. "I smell weed in your car, what else you got going on?"

You will eventually get to them when they commit the crimes you are finally willing to truly prosecute for. Most of the murder suspects you see get picked up have a rap sheet of petty things in their past. Places like California started with decriminalizing weed possession and they have kept adding the "minor" things to the list of items that they won't prosecute anymore. Meanwhile crime continues to rise.

I think proactive policing is more effective than reactive. Not being able to stop someone doing something that is tied to other criminal behavior potentially removes one of those proactive tools.

The problem is it interjects a WHOLE of additional interactions with police. Broken tail light policing might work in some cases, but if it's always a subset of poor people being pulled over they grow very frustrated with police. Leaving an extra 45 minutes in every trip to account for being pulled over would be annoying.

And those interactions lead to mistakes. There was a gas station shooting I think in South Carolina, the police asked for his ID so he reached in his car to get it and the cop shoots him. The guy asks why he was shot, the cop wanted his ID and he was getting it. The odds of mistakes by one or the other goes way up.

Or the case of Sandra Bland who was arrested pretty much because she became mouthy. I've seen a lot of us on this board, pulled over often enough or for what we believe to be no good reason pretty much everyone on this board could get mouthy.

In his book about Bland, Gladwell discusses how broken tail light policing came about. Police departments around the country were looking for tools and ran experiments. KC hit the secret sauce, broken tail light policing. But Gladwell points out that police around the country took it up without reading the full experiment. KC didn't do it city-wide, nor even neighborhood-wide. KC identified specific intersections where crime was high and targeted them. It turns out people like drug dealers have very limited locations they feel comfortable with, they don't want to risk getting into a gang's turf by moving. Target specific areas. Instead, police around the country started targeting everywhere. The result hasn't been good, we have people getting stopped repeatedly for very minor offenses.

 

[T.M.P.]

You can't beat it.

At least where I'm from, people aren't buying off the streets anymore. People go to Michigan because they know what they are getting is going to be good. It's all tested. I went to Detroit over the weekend and stopped in Coldwater and they had 16 dispensaries in or around that one little town for rec use. Weed has that town thriving with the locals and out of towners coming through.

Nobody around here buys off the street. Even the guys that do try and sell, they are getting the high end stuff from Michigan and flipping it.

The west coast might have a black market problem, but from what I've seen, that's not happening here.

The article is mostly bullshit ..

Unless the blackmarket shit is schwag or mids - does anyone actually smoke mids anymore - it's not cheaper than dispensary.

Dispensaries will sell zips as low as 120 though it's generally much higher. Street is still generally 240 to 320 and as low as 180 in some cities it's not cheaper. Of course there's growers who go around the system and not sell in dispensaries but they're an exception not the rule.

Most blackmarket is overflow, or cannabis that didn't pass muster. ie under 20% THC which just doesn't move in dispensaries. Another major source of blackmarket is cannabis bought from legal dispensaries, or direct from legal growers and resold at higher prices in illegal states.

Though not as out of touch as Reefer Madness, the person writing that is pretty much out of touch ...

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

 

[Indianaftw]

The article is mostly bullshit ..

Unless the blackmarket shit is schwag or mids - does anyone actually smoke mids anymore - it's not cheaper than dispensary.

Dispensaries will sell zips as low as 120 though it's generally much higher. Street is still generally 240 to 320 and as low as 180 in some cities it's not cheaper. Of course there's growers who go around the system and not sell in dispensaries but they're an exception not the rule.

Most blackmarket is overflow, or cannabis that didn't pass muster. ie under 20% THC which just doesn't move in dispensaries. Another major source of blackmarket is cannabis bought from legal dispensaries, or direct from legal growers and resold at higher prices in illegal states.

Though not as out of touch as Reefer Madness, the person writing that is pretty much out of touch ...

https://enjoylevels.com/sturgis/?

That's 59 bucks for 28-1 gram pre rolled party pack in Sturgis Michigan. Or 2 zips for a hundred

If they ask for a zip code type 49120

Just sayin

 

[i'vegotwinners]

The New Weed Whackers

Californians who opened their voters’ guides to the state’s 2010 elections could read a pitch from backers of Proposition 19, an initiative designed to legalize the recreational use of marijuana. The argument: that “Prohibition [of marijuana] has created a violent criminal market run by...

www.city-journal.org

One of the largest arguments for the legalization of marijuana has been that it would be accompanied by a decrease in crime and that the state would see taxation benefits from the same.

Based on the states that have led the charge for legalization, that doesn't appear to be the case at this time. The black markets in those states have exploded and in the case of California, has led to theft of natural resources and additional crimes related to skipping out on farming rules and regulations.

idiocracy.

the black market isn't an unintended consequence of legalization at all.

it's an easily predictable and blatantly obvious consequence of gross overpricing, heavily restricting licenses to grow or sell, (pay to play/corruption), and all the still Taliban controlled states.

that said, the only reason it was ever criminalized in the first place, was a constant boot on the neck of Dems and blacks, and no other reason.

 

[hoosboot]

This is ridiculous.... the industry is barely beyond the infant stage.

Hell, those in the industry can't even use the legal finance/ banking system, at this point. And getting a license in many of these states is exorbitantly difficult and cost prohibitive.

Totally. It takes a heckuva lot longer than six or seven years for an industry to become mature enough to draw conclusions from tangential data.

I'm not a smoker at all, but I don't think the author was doing an impartial look at the industry or how it compares to alcohol. I can't imagine anybody believes that crime linked to alcohol disappeared when alcohol was "decriminalized". It didn't go away - it just changed.

 

[IUINSB]

The article is mostly bullshit ..

Unless the blackmarket shit is schwag or mids - does anyone actually smoke mids anymore - it's not cheaper than dispensary.

Dispensaries will sell zips as low as 120 though it's generally much higher. Street is still generally 240 to 320 and as low as 180 in some cities it's not cheaper. Of course there's growers who go around the system and not sell in dispensaries but they're an exception not the rule.

Most blackmarket is overflow, or cannabis that didn't pass muster. ie under 20% THC which just doesn't move in dispensaries. Another major source of blackmarket is cannabis bought from legal dispensaries, or direct from legal growers and resold at higher prices in illegal states.

Though not as out of touch as Reefer Madness, the person writing that is pretty much out of touch ...

OK. I admit it, I'm old. What the hell are Schwag, mids, and zips?
Been years since I've bought so cut me some slack.

 

[hoot1]

Is it? I mean there is decriminalization of possession, so if that is your goal it is working. However, in places like California, crime is up but arrests are down. I would be willing to bet that there is an awful large correlation between those who used to get picked up for possession and the commission of other crimes.

Edit to add: I don't really care about pot, whatever, but I do think that the legalization push is based more on the "I personally want to get high" argument then it is on all the other arguments put forth. Bring up legalization to some people (quite a few I have personally come across) and you get transported back to being 17 and how kids act about scoring alcohol.

IMO, businessmen interested in the pot business using their influence on state legislatures has more to do with legalization than actually reducing crime. Reducing crime is just a talking point to get public approval.

 

[T.M.P.]

OK. I admit it, I'm old. What the hell are Schwag, mids, and zips?
Been years since I've bought so cut me some slack.

Schwag and mids are basically poorly grown, sometimes seeded, not as genetically viable cannabis. Shit weed ...

A zip is an ounce.

 

[T.M.P.]

IMO, businessmen interested in the pot business using their influence on state legislatures has more to do with legalization than actually reducing crime. Reducing crime is just a talking point to get public approval.

*cannabis.

 

[larsIU]

*cannabis.

*cannabusiness



I kid. It's a terrible term

 

[i'vegotwinners]

The article is mostly bullshit ..

Unless the blackmarket shit is schwag or mids - does anyone actually smoke mids anymore - it's not cheaper than dispensary.

Dispensaries will sell zips as low as 120 though it's generally much higher. Street is still generally 240 to 320 and as low as 180 in some cities it's not cheaper. Of course there's growers who go around the system and not sell in dispensaries but they're an exception not the rule.

Most blackmarket is overflow, or cannabis that didn't pass muster. ie under 20% THC which just doesn't move in dispensaries. Another major source of blackmarket is cannabis bought from legal dispensaries, or direct from legal growers and resold at higher prices in illegal states.

Though not as out of touch as Reefer Madness, the person writing that is pretty much out of touch ...

please link any dispensary in Mich or Ill, that's listing decent smoke for less than $300 oz or more, let alone $120 oz.

i haven't seen any.

it's been awhile, but last time i priced Mich on the net, everyone was closer to $400 oz.

pretty much the same with Illinois.

 

[Indianaftw]

please link any dispensary in Mich or Ill, that's listing decent smoke for less than $300 oz or more, let alone $120 oz.

i haven't seen any.

it's been awhile, but last time i priced Mich on the net, everyone was closer to $400 oz.

pretty much the same with Illinois.

I just did look up

2 ounces (zips) for a hundred. And it's 10 times better than most people are used too. Is there better yea but this is solid from a shop. Pre rolled too

 

[i'vegotwinners]

I just did look up

2 ounces (zips) for a hundred. And it's 10 times better than most people are used too. Is there better yea but this is solid from a shop. Pre rolled too

i see no link. or even a name and location.

that said, seems a lot more posters here are up north.

Mich is a long trip from southern Ind, and i believe 1 oz is the limit for out of staters. (1/2 oz with Illinois).

 

[IUINSB]

Schwag and mids are basically poorly grown, sometimes seeded, not as genetically viable cannabis. Shit weed ...

A zip is an ounce.

Thank you.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I just did look up

2 ounces (zips) for a hundred. And it's 10 times better than most people are used too. Is there better yea but this is solid from a shop. Pre rolled too

How long does that last? Seems expensive as hell to me but my party days are kind of behind me (I was a drinker, never really got into marijuana).

 

[Indianaftw]

i see no link. or even a name and location.

Good lord cmon man

Use the sturgis location

https://enjoylevels.com/sturgis/?

 

[Indianaftw]

How long does that last? Seems expensive as hell to me but my party days are kind of behind me (I was a drinker, never really got into marijuana).

I don't either. My oldest though...


He has friends in the biz. And when he says it's legit I believe him. This new shit is way more potent than back in the 80s-90s.

 

[T.M.P.]

please link any dispensary in Mich or Ill, that's listing decent smoke for less than $300 oz or more, let alone $120 oz.

i haven't seen any.

it's been awhile, but last time i priced Mich on the net, everyone was closer to $400 oz.

pretty much the same with Illinois.

Look below ... first place I searched .. first bud on the list. 30 per qtr ounce, or 7 gms. Plus others at the same or slightly higher at 150.. and even some for 100 per.

It's not the common price, it's the stuff they are putting on sale. Super Lemon Haze (multi cup winner) was on sale for 120 a few weeks back. So it's not just shit weed they discount.

Something more popular (MAC, Wedding Cake, Runtz) will cost far more .. but yeah you can get zips at 120. Illinois is generally a bit more expensive but they run deals too.

https://www.greentreerelief.com/recreational.php/?path=menu?refinementList[root_types][0]=sale

 

[T.M.P.]

How long does that last? Seems expensive as hell to me but my party days are kind of behind me (I was a drinker, never really got into marijuana).

*cannabis

It has a name, use it ..

vbg