Israel under attack from Hamas
- Thread starter JamieDimonsBalls
- Start date
Huh? Compare US deaths on 9/11 to the number of deaths the US caused in Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel isn’t acting differently than any other western nation would.
about 70K civilians died in Afghanistan and Pakistan over the 20 years we were there. Israel has killed more than 1/3 of that # in 3 months. the pace is staggering.
western nations communicate goals with their allies and, in a generalized way, the public. they are concerned with limiting civilian casualties. they are concerned with letting medical aid and food get to civllians. they are concerned with PR. they calculate how their actions will or will not destabilize the broader region or the world economy.
no, this isn't how the west does it. this is the flip side all non-casual observers knew was coming.
I don't even think that figure is correct by their numbers. If 25K-30K Palestinians have died and Israel estimates to have killed 9K Hamas fighters.
Lets say Israel is exaggerating by a factor of 3, and the real number is 3K. That is still a 10:1 ratio.
Manichi is completely FOS.
Hamas reports all deaths as civilian deaths. He’s swallowing them whole.
A lot of people have died in Gaza. Many are civilians. Maybe the number is right. We don’t know. The reason civilians are dying at a higher rate, though, is known: because Hamas designed it that way.
The Syrians might not like the result if the Kurds are free to defend themselves with our weapons.
because that's not the biggest point. the ways in which Israel deviates from western norms is. the insane body count in such short amount of time is a symptom but also perpetuates the grievances, destabilizes the region, draws us into more ME bullshit.
no, you won't see Israeli school kids holding AK47s and shouting death to Palestinians but their side actually has more gear and does most of the killing. weird world we live in.
So what do you propose Israel does NOW?
Unlike the US, they can't just wash their hands and say "well, we're tired now. Had enough. Bye!" They have to live there, under the threat of an organization that says it will continue to butcher, rape, and torture its men, women, and children.
You're pretty much describing every war between a Western and third-world, Islamic country.
- stop or at least pause building condos and strip malls in the west bank
- give this version of Palestine a legitimate path to statehood
- let aid organizations in
- emphasize the minimization of civilian casualties; PR matters
- swap prisoners
do the above and SA, Turkey, UAE et al. will all feel they can lay off their harsh internal rhetoric. take that moment to strengthen your place in the ME anti-terrorist/ anti-iran coalition. deepen intelligence ties with regional partners. charm the shit out of the west with your new found humanity. set actual term limits for prime minister. continue to hunt Hamas with all internationally accepted means. Palestinian statehood gives you one throat to choke.
easy peasy lol
our involvement perpetuates the issues there. neither guy who will be president next year is into US service people risking their lives in areas without achievable goals. get used to it.
same old song and dance. the Arabs do most of the rhetoric, the Israelis do most of the killing. maybe they'll shoot a missile at that place.
So keep going with the war, then? As for the Palestinians getting a path to statehood, they've tried. The Palestinians refuse. Do you want them to force them into it somehow?
I wonder what media reports you are reading/listening to if you think Israel isn't trying to do a PR battle and doesn't know that PR matters.
Is this rhetoric?
Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel - Wikipedia
Second Intifada - Wikipedia
Hamas’s October 7 Attack: Visualizing the Data
CSIS researchers present 10 figures and images to illustrate different dimensions of Hamas's October 7 attack, Israel's response, and the impact for Gaza and the world.
I think one of the things you are doing that I disagree with is that you are treating these deaths and methods as morally equivalent. They are not. Hamas is intentionally using terrorist tactics against a stronger opponent. They are inviting--they want--Israel to respond harshly. Given their tactics and use of the civilian population as shields, I'm not sure Israel has much choice in the matter.
A ceasefire is too much to ask for right now, but Saudi Arabia, et al., asked Israel to commit to a Palestinian state in the future in only the most generic terms. Bibi's refusal to do that is too stubborn. I know he has political concerns, but sometimes statesmen gotta step up.
The Palestinians may be nowhere near ready for statehood, but they will never move in that direction while Israel says it's off the table, anyway.
They really moved far in the right direction since 2005, didn’t they? Electing terrorists, supporting terrorism, etc.
They aren’t capable of governing themselves. Ask the Egyptians and Jordanians
How to stop the Houthis
President Joe Biden and his team's current thinking: there’s no single thing that will pressure the militants to cease launching missiles.
www.politico.com
Joe is waiting for China….good grief
Regardless, my point stands. Israel can't close the door on statehood.
what exactly has their PR message been? "we set no timetable or limits on tearing up Gaza to achieve a factually unachievable goal of destroying all of Hamas"?
I was thinking something softer/ hopeful to pacify Arab partners and maybe something that doesn't make every Palestinian think they are going to die in the next few months...
Is this rhetoric?
Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Second Intifada - Wikipedia
Hamas’s October 7 Attack: Visualizing the Data
CSIS researchers present 10 figures and images to illustrate different dimensions of Hamas's October 7 attack, Israel's response, and the impact for Gaza and the world.www.csis.org
I think one of the things you are doing that I disagree with is that you are treating these deaths and methods as morally equivalent. They are not. Hamas is intentionally using terrorist tactics against a stronger opponent. They are inviting--they want--Israel to respond harshly. Given their tactics and use of the civilian population as shields, I'm not sure Israel has much choice in the matter.
two atrocities don't make a right, especially when you are the western-backed regional power seeking legitimacy in the ME and globally.
exactly, Hamas expected this reprisal. feeds into their narrative. ensures a future generation of radicals. Israel will have to stop the cycle, if it ever has the political will to do so, using discretion, modern understandings of territorial integrity, western concepts of human rights. it's got to start there or else the world will stop every 10 years or so as these two go at it.
The Palestinians elected Hamas once and were choosing between terrorists. They haven't had a vote since because Hamas doesn't do elections.
aren't capable for governing themselves? call Palestinians non-humans without calling them non-humans. quit going back to the Egypt and Jordan as examples. you expected a whole nation to peacefully settle into another country? you need to reread the Old Testament.
So if attacked, a nation should not retaliate and is morally wrong to fight until the other side has unconditionally surrendered?
I think you're asking too much of Israel. They've lived with tens of thousands of rockets and mortars lobbed at them for two decades. No Western nation would put up with that. They've been amazingly patient. They've offered peace solutions. Palestinians routinely reject them and claim Israel has no right to exist and they will continue until they have driven the Jews out "from the river to the sea." Hamas has not surrendered. These are facts. It's completely understandable why harder line Israelis think that by giving in, they are sealing their doom, especially given their unique history.
I'm not sure why you think "Israel will have to stop the cycle" and want them to apply western concepts of human rights, but not the Palestinians. Especially since, in the message before, you accuse JDB of intimating they are "non-human" because he doesn't think they can govern themselves? That seems inconsistent.
But I agree with your prediction that this will start and stop every decade or so for the rest of our lives unless something drastic happens. The whole situation is ****ed up and I don't think it can be un****ed. I don't think there are any good options here.
This should just about end the war, I guess:
www.aljazeera.com
Will a US court order Biden to stop ‘complicity’ in Gaza genocide?
Lawsuit asks court to order President Joe Biden to end US assistance to Israel that enables alleged genocide in Gaza.
How about speeding things up. All of the "good" paletinians turn in the bad Hamas people to Isreal. Would that be too mean for you, I mean to the poor Hamas terrorist.
This should just about end the war, I guess:
Will a US court order Biden to stop ‘complicity’ in Gaza genocide?
Lawsuit asks court to order President Joe Biden to end US assistance to Israel that enables alleged genocide in Gaza.
Al Jazeera 😂
I like how they write that article as if that suit has a snowball's chance of surviving.
It wasn't a whole nation. Palestinian immigration is barred by those countries because those that they let in were ruined local society and caused significant upticks in crime, terror fanaticism, etc.
and you just learned of this since 10/7. everything thing you are trying to grasp now via twitter has been something you didn't know existed before three months ago. and it shows.
I’ve known about it forever. You literally just suggested that the Palestinian state was moved and that was the problem.
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