Indiana improved. Miller gets another year

[TR32]

Argue all you want. Some of us agreed to wait until the end of the season.

The chips are cashed in and the results show: no 12 game losing streak, wins over several ranked teams, a fairly likely NCAA bid, 20 wins, and the best part, a full starting 5 returning plus another 5star guard coming in.

What it means is Miller has gradually improved, and there is every reason to project more improvement next season.

There you go. He gets another year and once next season starts I won't evaluate him til the end again.

 

[fpeaugh]

There’s no doubt he did a better job this year than he did last year. I give him that. But was the improvement good enough? My opinion is no but there’s no question he’ll be back next year. Another year to prove himself.

 

[fkfootball]

We need to be top 25 next season.

 

[TR32]

They will win more than 20 next year, unless Lamar Stevens and Cassius Winston and Zavier Simpson, and Anthony Cowan, etc. all get to return.

 

[Al Bino]

There’s no doubt he did a better job this year than he did last year. I give him that. But was the improvement good enough? My opinion is no but there’s no question he’ll be back next year. Another year to prove himself.

Kudos. One of the most reasonable posts I have ever seen you make.

 

[TommyCracker]

Argue all you want. Some of us agreed to wait until the end of the season.

The chips are cashed in and the results show: no 12 game losing streak, wins over several ranked teams, a fairly likely NCAA bid, 20 wins, and the best part, a full starting 5 returning plus another 5star guard coming in.

What it means is Miller has gradually improved, and there is every reason to project more improvement next season.

There you go. He gets another year and once next season starts I won't evaluate him til the end again.

I'm happy where we are roster wise and recruiting wise so I'm not freaked out about the future.

At the end of the day the base goal was to make the tournament and it seems like we did so....yay!

I'm still waiting for a big over achievement year. Don't think this was that year (my personal hope was around 22-9 and a top half conference finish, maybe top 4).

There is no doubt that the program is improving.

I do think it's fair to question if it's improving enough (especially when compared to his two benchmarks Holtmann and Underwood).

I expect us with this roster to be top 15, top 20 good next year.

Hoping to see.....

1. Rob bounce back after it gets out that he played with a sports hernia all season. I don't know if that's true but I think he had one from my view from the couch.

2. Joey Brunk and Archie get rid of that over aggressive high ball screen that constantly burned Brunk all season long.

I thought it was fitting that one of the last defensive plays of the year was Brunk once again sticking with the double team that was easily beat and the ball was delivered to his man, a frikken 300 pound lumbering lineman alone under the basket where Brunk had to desperately foul to keep him from scoring.

I f#&king HATE the hard hedge.

3. Jerome Hunter really develops his inside game/ball driving game. It's in him, it's what he did in HS. His freshman year he was basically a spot up shooter. He needs to become a versatile offensive player and then see his minutes double or triple.

4. TJD just needs to get his body bigger. He should be a double double monster and challenge for the big ten rebounding leaders next year. The team will evolve around him.

Well it kind of did this year but a bigger, badder TJD.

5. I think Armaan is going to be really, really good. It's there for him. Good looking shot. Big body. Really good on ball defender. Drawing charges that would make Brad Davidson proud.

6. Justin and Al come back and have solid senior years. We don't need them to be the stars, but we need them to be the leaders. Get a little better and have a solid year.

7. Race, like Jerome, needs to put on his big boy offensive pants and show some versatility. Meaning be more of a threat. Race got his Juwan Morgan hustle, role player sophomore season. Time to become more of a featured guy.

I think this team if things go right can be a top 15/top 10 team.

I do worry that we play too many people. It's probably one of our relative deepest rosters (other than TJD there isn't a huge difference between players 2-12) but that is hard to lineup optimize.

 

[ulrey]

Kudos. One of the most reasonable posts I have ever seen you make.

he may be sick..

 

[WiskyHoosier]

I'm happy where we are roster wise and recruiting wise so I'm not freaked out about the future.

At the end of the day the base goal was to make the tournament and it seems like we did so....yay!

I'm still waiting for a big over achievement year. Don't think this was that year (my personal hope was around 22-9 and a top half conference finish, maybe top 4).

There is no doubt that the program is improving.

I do think it's fair to question if it's improving enough (especially when compared to his two benchmarks Holtmann and Underwood).

I expect us with this roster to be top 15, top 20 good next year.

Hoping to see.....

1. Rob bounce back after it gets out that he played with a sports hernia all season. I don't know if that's true but I think he had one from my view from the couch.

2. Joey Brunk and Archie get rid of that over aggressive high ball screen that constantly burned Brunk all season long.

I thought it was fitting that one of the last defensive plays of the year was Brunk once again sticking with the double team that was easily beat and the ball was delivered to his man, a frikken 300 pound lumbering lineman alone under the basket where Brunk had to desperately foul to keep him from scoring.

I f#&king HATE the hard hedge.

3. Jerome Hunter really develops his inside game/ball driving game. It's in him, it's what he did in HS. His freshman year he was basically a spot up shooter. He needs to become a versatile offensive player and then see his minutes double or triple.

4. TJD just needs to get his body bigger. He should be a double double monster and challenge for the big ten rebounding leaders next year. The team will evolve around him.

Well it kind of did this year but a bigger, badder TJD.

5. I think Armaan is going to be really, really good. It's there for him. Good looking shot. Big body. Really good on ball defender. Drawing charges that would make Brad Davidson proud.

6. Justin and Al come back and have solid senior years. We don't need them to be the stars, but we need them to be the leaders. Get a little better and have a solid year.

7. Race, like Jerome, needs to put on his big boy offensive pants and show some versatility. Meaning be more of a threat. Race got his Juwan Morgan hustle, role player sophomore season. Time to become more of a featured guy.

I think this team if things go right can be a top 15/top 10 team.

I do worry that we play too many people. It's probably one of our relative deepest rosters (other than TJD there isn't a huge difference between players 2-12) but that is hard to lineup optimize.

Fair breakdown and you didn't even touch on our incoming Freshman....and Lander hopefully

 

[Escalibore]

Argue all you want. Some of us agreed to wait until the end of the season.

The chips are cashed in and the results show: no 12 game losing streak, wins over several ranked teams, a fairly likely NCAA bid, 20 wins, and the best part, a full starting 5 returning plus another 5star guard coming in.

What it means is Miller has gradually improved, and there is every reason to project more improvement next season.

There you go. He gets another year and once next season starts I won't evaluate him til the end again.

No way. He failed to get us into the NCAA tournament again this year.

 

[TommyCracker]

Fair breakdown and you didn't even touch on our incoming Freshman....and Lander hopefully

I'm not expecting much from the freshmen next year and we don't really need them.

I think Lander will have at best a Yogi like freshman year which is fine. It's nice having a five star pg in the rotation even if he's 17 and 155 pounds after Thanksgiving.

Hope he stays multiple years cause I'd expect Lander to have massive leaps every year that he's here...but I really don't expect too much next year. If he comes in a sets the world on fire, hell yeah!

But I think we should be a solid top 20 team without him anyway with the roster.

I also don't expect much from Geronimo next year but I'm excited as hell to watch him develop as he's got crazy skills (great athlete, freakish reach and beautiful looking form from distance. I think hell be a stud as he gets older....just not next year).

 

[minneman]

Hope he stays multiple years cause I'd expect Lander to have massive leaps every year that he's here...but I really don't expect too much next year. If he comes in a sets the world on fire, hell yeah!

Any idea of when his birthday is? If he doesn't turn 19 in 2021 he wouldn't be able to enter the draft.

 

[hozo4ultimate]

Argue all you want. Some of us agreed to wait until the end of the season.

The chips are cashed in and the results show: no 12 game losing streak, wins over several ranked teams, a fairly likely NCAA bid, 20 wins, and the best part, a full starting 5 returning plus another 5star guard coming in.

What it means is Miller has gradually improved, and there is every reason to project more improvement next season.

There you go. He gets another year and once next season starts I won't evaluate him til the end again.

Archie will be stoked when he hears about this.

 

[hoosierraven]

I would still like us to add a skilled Big to the roster. I think we will shoot better next year from the outside but I don’t think we matched up well with skilled bigs this year and I’m concerned for next year.

 

[klize17]

The improvement is there and the offense will continue to get better as the roster gets older with more talent

Season 1
16 wins 15 losses
Ken Pom - 71 overall 92 offense 65 Defense

Season 2
19 wins 16 losses
Ken Pom - 52 Overall 82 offense 32 Defense

Season 3
20 wins 12 losses
Ken Pom 34 overall 65 offense 26 Defense

 

[baileyiu]

I would still like us to add a skilled Big to the roster. I think we will shoot better next year from the outside but I don’t think we matched up well with skilled bigs this year and I’m concerned for next year.

BINGO! I expect Galloway & geronimo to contribute next year - could even be key factors in B1G season.

 

[Chicago-bound Hoosier]

There’s no doubt he did a better job this year than he did last year. I give him that. But was the improvement good enough? My opinion is no but there’s no question he’ll be back next year. Another year to prove himself.

wow, we are in agreement. Season was an improvement, but mild one at best. We need to live in the top 20 next yr and be a B1G tourney bye team. We cannot be having bubble conversations again next February.

 

[Chicago-bound Hoosier]

I'm happy where we are roster wise and recruiting wise so I'm not freaked out about the future.

At the end of the day the base goal was to make the tournament and it seems like we did so....yay!

I'm still waiting for a big over achievement year. Don't think this was that year (my personal hope was around 22-9 and a top half conference finish, maybe top 4).

There is no doubt that the program is improving.

I do think it's fair to question if it's improving enough (especially when compared to his two benchmarks Holtmann and Underwood).

I expect us with this roster to be top 15, top 20 good next year.

Hoping to see.....

1. Rob bounce back after it gets out that he played with a sports hernia all season. I don't know if that's true but I think he had one from my view from the couch.

2. Joey Brunk and Archie get rid of that over aggressive high ball screen that constantly burned Brunk all season long.

I thought it was fitting that one of the last defensive plays of the year was Brunk once again sticking with the double team that was easily beat and the ball was delivered to his man, a frikken 300 pound lumbering lineman alone under the basket where Brunk had to desperately foul to keep him from scoring.

I f#&king HATE the hard hedge.

3. Jerome Hunter really develops his inside game/ball driving game. It's in him, it's what he did in HS. His freshman year he was basically a spot up shooter. He needs to become a versatile offensive player and then see his minutes double or triple.

4. TJD just needs to get his body bigger. He should be a double double monster and challenge for the big ten rebounding leaders next year. The team will evolve around him.

Well it kind of did this year but a bigger, badder TJD.

5. I think Armaan is going to be really, really good. It's there for him. Good looking shot. Big body. Really good on ball defender. Drawing charges that would make Brad Davidson proud.

6. Justin and Al come back and have solid senior years. We don't need them to be the stars, but we need them to be the leaders. Get a little better and have a solid year.

7. Race, like Jerome, needs to put on his big boy offensive pants and show some versatility. Meaning be more of a threat. Race got his Juwan Morgan hustle, role player sophomore season. Time to become more of a featured guy.

I think this team if things go right can be a top 15/top 10 team.

I do worry that we play too many people. It's probably one of our relative deepest rosters (other than TJD there isn't a huge difference between players 2-12) but that is hard to lineup optimize.

great points all around. hedging only works if you have guys with quick feet. Brunk obviously does not. When he can't catch up to a 300 lb lineman, that tells you all you need to know. However I would like to give Brunk some credit. Brunk did bring value to this squad that won't ever show up in the box score. Without him at IU this year (and next), TJD would have been a very lonely kid in the paint.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

9-9
8-12
9-11

We have been reduced to calling this “improvement.”

Look, Archie’s going to get another year. On that much, we agree. But it’s not because he’s earned it - because he hasn’t.

 

[Coach Geez]

9-9
8-12
9-11

We have been reduced to calling this “improvement.”

Look, Archie’s going to get another year. On that much, we agree. But it’s not because he’s earned it - because he hasn’t.

You're nuts if you haven't seen marked improvement from the time he stepped foot on campus. Citing conference record for non-improvement is inadequate. The B10 was AWFUL Archie's first year. The roster Archie had year 1 would have gone 5-15 in this years B10 and this years team would have competed for a B10 title in year 1, it's all relative to the strength of the conference and the B10 had an abnormally strong year this year. Now Archie may not be improving at the rate in which you desire and that's certainly your prerogative, but IU has gotten exponentially better since year 1 and that really isn't up for debate.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

and that really isn't up for debate.

Cease and desist...that phrase is trademarked by Feepaw.

 

[Coach Geez]

Cease and desist...that phrase is trademarked by Feepaw.

I'll gladly take a page out of his book on this one. To say IU isn't better today than they were when Archie first got to Bloomington isn't up for debate.

 

[VanPastorMan]

Argue all you want. Some of us agreed to wait until the end of the season.

The chips are cashed in and the results show: no 12 game losing streak, wins over several ranked teams, a fairly likely NCAA bid, 20 wins, and the best part, a full starting 5 returning plus another 5star guard coming in.

What it means is Miller has gradually improved, and there is every reason to project more improvement next season.

There you go. He gets another year and once next season starts I won't evaluate him til the end again.

People want to gripe. But I agree. IU did get better over last year. Now are we where we want to be? Absolutely not. But we did get better.

 

[Birnk403]

BINGO! I expect Galloway & geronimo to contribute next year - could even be key factors in B1G season.

And, like we see among IU fans every year, the true impact of these players will never meet the outsized and overblown expectations of many.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

You're nuts if you haven't seen marked improvement from the time he stepped foot on campus. Citing conference record for non-improvement is inadequate. The B10 was AWFUL Archie's first year. The roster Archie had year 1 would have gone 5-15 in this years B10 and this years team would have competed for a B10 title in year 1, it's all relative to the strength of the conference and the B10 had an abnormally strong year this year. Now Archie may not be improving at the rate in which you desire and that's certainly your prerogative, but IU has gotten exponentially better since year 1 and that really isn't up for debate.

Well, I'm pretty sure I'm not nuts. But, no, I haven't seen marked improvement since he's been here. Hell, I haven't even seen modest improvement.

Improvement is one of those things that, when it happens, it's not only obvious to anybody paying attention, it also shows up in hard apples/apples data....like conference records.

Our overall W/L record was better this year for one big reason: we played a lot of bunnies. Aside from that, we've basically gone nowhere....and it's plainly obvious.

Again, if you don't want to take my word for it -- because you think I just have it out for Archie or something -- then I'll just refer again to Vitale's words responding to the Sesame Street rant. DV's an impartial observer and a guy who I'd say knows college basketball pretty well:

I believe if you can't be .500 in your conference, that's mediocre, man. And if you're below that — you hear me, Archie Miller? — you're below that, you shouldn't be in. I mean, he's worrying about Joe Lunardi and bracketology. Give me a break. Worry about getting your team over .500. I don't want to hear how tough your conference is. Indiana should be better than that, OK?
​

Yep. We should've been better than our record indicates, but we weren't. And convincing ourselves that we've "improved" doesn't actually make it so.

Again, Archie's going to get another year whether I like it or not. So we'll all get more opportunity to evaluate. But the past three years are in the record book -- and anybody who calls them anything but wholly underwhelming is fooling themselves.

So far, Archie has been a failed coach. He shouldn't be retained -- and probably wouldn't be but for contractual reasons. And while I certainly hope that next year sees better results, there really isn't much cause to expect we will.

 

[baileyiu]

Well, I'm pretty sure I'm not nuts. But, no, I haven't seen marked improvement since he's been here. Hell, I haven't even seen modest improvement.

Improvement is one of those things that, when it happens, it's not only obvious to anybody paying attention, it also shows up in hard apples/apples data....like conference records.

Our overall W/L record was better this year for one big reason: we played a lot of bunnies. Aside from that, we've basically gone nowhere....and it's plainly obvious.

Again, if you don't want to take my word for it -- because you think I just have it out for Archie or something -- then I'll just refer again to Vitale's words responding to the Sesame Street rant. DV's an impartial observer and a guy who I'd say knows college basketball pretty well:

I believe if you can't be .500 in your conference, that's mediocre, man. And if you're below that — you hear me, Archie Miller? — you're below that, you shouldn't be in. I mean, he's worrying about Joe Lunardi and bracketology. Give me a break. Worry about getting your team over .500. I don't want to hear how tough your conference is. Indiana should be better than that, OK?
​

Yep. We should've been better than our record indicates, but we weren't. And convincing ourselves that we've "improved" doesn't actually make it so.

Again, Archie's going to get another year whether I like it or not. So we'll all get more opportunity to evaluate. But the past three years are in the record book -- and anybody who calls them anything but wholly underwhelming is fooling themselves.

So far, Archie has been a failed coach. He shouldn't be retained -- and probably wouldn't be but for contractual reasons. And while I certainly hope that next year sees better results, there really isn't much cause to expect we will.

Quoting Vitale is not a good idea!

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Quoting Vitale is not a good idea!

Maybe. But, in this case, he's exactly right.

- A sub 500 conference record is mediocre
- It doesn't warrant an at-large tourney bid
- Coaches should worry about making their teams good enough to merit a bid, and not about what pundits say regarding who does and doesn't
- Indiana should be better than we are

Nobody can take issue with any one of those statements. Archie griping about Lunardi's comments is like a kid who sits on the bench bitching about not getting enough playing time. Playing time is earned -- and, if you're not getting as much as you want, either do what it takes to earn it or accept that you don't have what it takes to get it. But never, EVER bitch about not getting it.

 

[Birnk403]

Quoting Vitale is not a good idea!

Why? He’s an extremely knowledgeable and universally recognized college basketball expert. His view can and does carry great weight.

 

[twenty02]

Well, I'm pretty sure I'm not nuts. But, no, I haven't seen marked improvement since he's been here. Hell, I haven't even seen modest improvement.

Improvement is one of those things that, when it happens, it's not only obvious to anybody paying attention, it also shows up in hard apples/apples data....like conference records.

Our overall W/L record was better this year for one big reason: we played a lot of bunnies. Aside from that, we've basically gone nowhere....and it's plainly obvious.

Again, if you don't want to take my word for it -- because you think I just have it out for Archie or something -- then I'll just refer again to Vitale's words responding to the Sesame Street rant. DV's an impartial observer and a guy who I'd say knows college basketball pretty well:

I believe if you can't be .500 in your conference, that's mediocre, man. And if you're below that — you hear me, Archie Miller? — you're below that, you shouldn't be in. I mean, he's worrying about Joe Lunardi and bracketology. Give me a break. Worry about getting your team over .500. I don't want to hear how tough your conference is. Indiana should be better than that, OK?
​

Yep. We should've been better than our record indicates, but we weren't. And convincing ourselves that we've "improved" doesn't actually make it so.

Again, Archie's going to get another year whether I like it or not. So we'll all get more opportunity to evaluate. But the past three years are in the record book -- and anybody who calls them anything but wholly underwhelming is fooling themselves.

So far, Archie has been a failed coach. He shouldn't be retained -- and probably wouldn't be but for contractual reasons. And while I certainly hope that next year sees better results, there really isn't much cause to expect we will.

You are so full of shit. Your self stated barometer for this season was making the tourney, which they most assuredly did. Now you say that's a failure.

Real data is analytics, which has shown the team get progressively better each year.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

You are so full of shit. Your self stated barometer for this season was making the tourney, which they most assuredly did. Now you say that's a failure.

I don't know that we'd have made the tournament -- none of us do. All anybody can do is speculate.

What I do know is that I agree with Vitale that a sub-500, T10 finish in the Big Ten shouldn't warrant an at-large bid. That's just my opinion, of course. You're free to disagree, but it's a perfectly reasonable take.

If Archie Miller's contract was up for renewal today, I seriously doubt it would be extended -- and I seriously doubt too many people would be calling for it to be. If that's not the definition of a failed coach, then what is?

He's going to get another year not because of his results, but because the alternative would be too expensive.

 

[IU? I'm Fine]

Maybe. But, in this case, he's exactly right.

- A sub 500 conference record is mediocre
- It doesn't warrant an at-large tourney bid
- Coaches should worry about making their teams good enough to merit a bid, and not about what pundits say regarding who does and doesn't
- Indiana should be better than we are

Nobody can take issue with any one of those statements. Archie griping about Lunardi's comments is like a kid who sits on the bench bitching about not getting enough playing time. Playing time is earned -- and, if you're not getting as much as you want, either do what it takes to earn it or accept that you don't have what it takes to get it. But never, EVER bitch about not getting it.

1. A sub 500 conference record is mediocre. True. But, in context with where the B1G improved and that the upperclassmen mostly were Crean's recruits with issues about basketball knowledge, then it isn't failing now is it? Plus the fact that in year 1 we had Newkirk as PG for crying out loud.
2.It doesn't warrant an at-large bid. False. Pundits across the board had IU in the NCAAT before the last game and many had IU in before that.
3.Pointless to discuss your opinion here.
4. Indiana should be better than where we are. Yeah, true. And that is true every year except for 1977. So?

We all probably agree that IU isn't good enough and we yearn for IU to be better. That is except for the trolls.

What we don't agree on is Archie Miller and his contract. I say he was a really good pick. And keeping him is the best for IU given his contract, the fact that he hasn't had the years he needs to recruit and develop his players.

 

[twenty02]

I don't know that we'd have made the tournament -- none of us do. All anybody can do is speculate.

What I do know is that I agree with Vitale that a sub-500, T10 finish in the Big Ten doesn't warrant an at-large bid. That's just my opinion, of course. You're free to disagree, but it's a perfectly reasonable take.

If Archie Miller's contract was up for renewal today, I seriously doubt it would be extended -- and I seriously doubt too many people would be calling for it to be. If that's not the definition of a failed coach, then what is?

He's going to get another year not because of his results, but because the alternative would be too expensive.

I disagree with everything you wrote, but that's typical.

But what's amazing is you now contradict yourself from just a couple months ago.

 

[hondo314]

Maybe. But, in this case, he's exactly right.

- A sub 500 conference record is mediocre
- It doesn't warrant an at-large tourney bid
- Coaches should worry about making their teams good enough to merit a bid, and not about what pundits say regarding who does and doesn't
- Indiana should be better than we are

Nobody can take issue with any one of those statements. Archie griping about Lunardi's comments is like a kid who sits on the bench bitching about not getting enough playing time. Playing time is earned -- and, if you're not getting as much as you want, either do what it takes to earn it or accept that you don't have what it takes to get it. But never, EVER bitch about not getting it.

Love how you chuckle heads are suddenly all about tightening up NCAA team credentials. nothing suspect about that. Sure, IU clearly won enough good games to get in, and the conference was better this year than last, but, sure, they don't pass your feelz test. lol.

 

[Birnk403]

You are so full of shit. Your self stated barometer for this season was making the tourney, which they most assuredly did. Now you say that's a failure.

Real data is analytics, which has shown the team get progressively better each year.

They made the tournament?

 

[Birnk403]

Love how you chuckle heads are suddenly all about tightening up NCAA team credentials. nothing suspect about that. Sure, IU clearly won enough good games to get in, and the conference was better this year than last, but, sure, they don't pass your feelz test. lol.

They were the 11th best team in a 14 member conference. While the season had some pluses, IU clearly hasn’t progressed relative to their Big 10 competitors. That’s really undeniable, even for someone as unstudied as you.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

1. A sub 500 conference record is mediocre. True. But, in context with where the B1G improved and that the upperclassmen mostly were Crean's recruits with issues about basketball knowledge, then it isn't failing now is it? Plus the fact that in year 1 we had Newkirk as PG for crying out loud.

The various explanations for it really are immaterial. You can point to the roster all you want -- but this isn't a professional team. We don't have a GM. We have a head coach and all bucks stop with him.

The point is: we had yet another mediocre season. Beyond debate.

2.It doesn't warrant an at-large bid. False. Pundits across the board had IU in the NCAAT before the last game and many had IU in before that.

OK. Maybe the better word choice is "shouldn't". At the end of the day, we're still talking about a sub-500, T10 finish in a 14 team conference. I'm not going to definitively say that we would or wouldn't have made it. Nobody can.

3.Pointless to discuss your opinion here.

Not really -- unless you think coaches *should* worry more about responding to pundits' comments and less about coaching their teams.

If you agree with that, then that's astounding. If you don't agree, and you do think that coaches should just stick to delivering better results rather than griping about externalities such as comments from the peanut gallery, then we agree.

4. Indiana should be better than where we are. Yeah, true. And that is true every year except for 1977. So?

So????? Really....so?

We all probably agree that IU isn't good enough

That's all you need to say. We're not good enough. And we either demand better or we accept it.

Not holding Archie Miller accountable for it is tantamount to accepting it. And way, WAY too many of us do -- while insisting the refusing to hold the coaches accountable for the results isn't actually accepting the mediocrity...

...which is why we're seemingly stuck in mediocrity.

What we don't agree on is Archie Miller and his contract. I say he was a really good pick. And keeping him is the best for IU given his contract, the fact that he hasn't had the years he needs to recruit and develop his players.

Yes he has.

FTR, I agreed he was a good pick when he was hired. But the results in his three years simply don't warrant keeping him. Again, I seriously doubt his contract would be extended if it were up for renewal right now. It's not, so it's entirely academic to even discuss it. But it's always a good idea to know where things stand.

 

[snarlcakes]

You are so full of shit. Your self stated barometer for this season was making the tourney, which they most assuredly did. Now you say that's a failure.

Real data is analytics, which has shown the team get progressively better each year.

The right question isn’t have they got progressively better each year.

 

[IUNorth]

I disagree with everything you wrote, but that's typical.

But what's amazing is you now contradict yourself from just a couple months ago.

We’re better today than we were last year and the year before by basically every single thing you can use to analyze a basketball program.

I AM NOT doing cart wheels over this years performance. Archies teams remain way too inconsistent. And if Archie were fired today, I can’t say I’d show up in Bloomington with torches and pitch forks. I would, however, be very wary of the next guy we’d get being any better. Because our admin isn’t going to “go big”...they’re not going to hire a guy with connections with someone like Donovan. They’re not ongoing to shell out the 5 mill a year plus it’d take to get that guy. So...who are we getting that would have us in a better spot...now. No “we should have hired Holtman” talk. We didn’t. He’s not available. Who’s better? Who’s worth risking blowing up what Archie HAS built? Which is a strong Indiana recruiting base. A balanced roster that should provide solid stability for the foreseeable future. And an NCAA tournament caliber team returning nearly all its key players. And likely bringing in one of the better point guard recruits in the country. Which happens to fill a gaping void on this team. I believe that the PG position is so important that if we’d have had a solid PG on this team...we’d have won 25 games. And would have seriously contended for a B10 title. We could have that guy next year. With the same roster essentially.

So yeah...if a Donovan, or Beard maybe, or Beilein even...obviously Stevens...were interested. I’m in. I’d still wonder if we’d just screwed up something that was about to take off. But I’d still be in.

But we do have a SOLID program now, and for the foreseeable future with Archie. I feel like I know who’s gonna be on the team next year. I know we’ll be top 30 Kenpom overall. Likely top 50 offense. Top 20 defense. We’ll push for 25 wins. And even if the conference is a meat grinder again next year. We’ll probably win 12-13 games and be in the thick of it for a title. And we’ll be in a position to do some damage in the NCAAs. Because Archie has shown when he has a competitive NCAA level team, they generally do well in the tournament.

There’s a lot to be excited about.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

But what's amazing is you now contradict yourself from just a couple months ago.

The barometer that I'd always held up was turned off before it could be used, twenty. That's not contradicting myself at all.

I can't make a judgment on whether or not we made the tournament, because there is no tournament and there are no at-large bids (or, for that matter, B10 conference champions).

So I'm left to use other metrics. And a T10 (really 11th, considering Purdue swept us) conference finish -- after a T6 and a 9th -- with two tournament misses in the years where it was possible -- shouldn't warrant retention. Maybe at Minnesota or Nebraska...but not at Indiana.

 

[snarlcakes]

Well, I'm pretty sure I'm not nuts. But, no, I haven't seen marked improvement since he's been here. Hell, I haven't even seen modest improvement.

Improvement is one of those things that, when it happens, it's not only obvious to anybody paying attention, it also shows up in hard apples/apples data....like conference records.

Our overall W/L record was better this year for one big reason: we played a lot of bunnies. Aside from that, we've basically gone nowhere....and it's plainly obvious.

Again, if you don't want to take my word for it -- because you think I just have it out for Archie or something -- then I'll just refer again to Vitale's words responding to the Sesame Street rant. DV's an impartial observer and a guy who I'd say knows college basketball pretty well:

I believe if you can't be .500 in your conference, that's mediocre, man. And if you're below that — you hear me, Archie Miller? — you're below that, you shouldn't be in. I mean, he's worrying about Joe Lunardi and bracketology. Give me a break. Worry about getting your team over .500. I don't want to hear how tough your conference is. Indiana should be better than that, OK?
​

Yep. We should've been better than our record indicates, but we weren't. And convincing ourselves that we've "improved" doesn't actually make it so.

Again, Archie's going to get another year whether I like it or not. So we'll all get more opportunity to evaluate. But the past three years are in the record book -- and anybody who calls them anything but wholly underwhelming is fooling themselves.

So far, Archie has been a failed coach. He shouldn't be retained -- and probably wouldn't be but for contractual reasons. And while I certainly hope that next year sees better results, there really isn't much cause to expect we will.

I agree Archie has been a failed coach overall so far, but I think he still deserves another year. Especially, with A.D. change. There just needs to be clear expectations moving forward. If the team isn’t top 20 (5 seed or better) next year, he should be let go.

 

[kkott]

I'm not expecting much from the freshmen next year and we don't really need them.

I think Lander will have at best a Yogi like freshman year which is fine. It's nice having a five star pg in the rotation even if he's 17 and 155 pounds after Thanksgiving.

Hope he stays multiple years cause I'd expect Lander to have massive leaps every year that he's here...but I really don't expect too much next year. If he comes in a sets the world on fire, hell yeah!

But I think we should be a solid top 20 team without him anyway with the roster.

I also don't expect much from Geronimo next year but I'm excited as hell to watch him develop as he's got crazy skills (great athlete, freakish reach and beautiful looking form from distance. I think hell be a stud as he gets older....just not next year).

It's always wise to lower expectations for freshmen, but I am hoping 1 of the 3 comes in as a reliable 3 pt shooter, because that's been such an area of weakness for us. I read where Leal commented on seeing a role as a 3 and D guy, and that is exactly what we could use. Maybe the extra time will work to our advantage for next year and get these guys some extra gym time to work on shooting!