If you are Scott Dolson…

[mushroomgod_1]

The $1M raise is the one thing that doesn't quite fit the Quinn pushed Woody narrative. In August Dolson thought things were great when there was a lot of uncertainty as to how things would break. Scares me.

It takes a lot to get booted in Yr 3, we'll see if being ranked #100 and being embarrassed all season is enough. Whatever IU does, we'll probably mess it up lol.

It's like the government. A million here. a million there, and pretty soon it gets to be real $.

 

[Sobchak_Security]

Someone paid Archie's $10M buyout.

For the hope of something better. Woodson can’t even sell that.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

If Buckner has any veto power, or if there's any understanding or agreement that the BOT (Buckner) is to be involved in any coaching hiring/firing decisions...then your laid out process could potentially be a huge waste of time, as Buckner would end up having ultimate veto power.

I have no idea what the decision making flow is at IU on these things. It sure seems like Buckner was heavily involved in the Woody hire. Doesn't matter...taking the step of firing someone like Woody, should include the BOT's input and approval.

So here's what the process "should" be.

1. Dolson, I would hope, has laid out some basic framework for his expectations for the program. That should have happened when Woody was hired.

2. After years 1 and 2, they would have sat down and reviewed the seasons, discussed the program, and where its headed.

3. At this point, during THIS season, Dolson ideally would have had at least a couple meetings reviewing the program. Style of play, flagrant fouls, current metrics...all fair game to be discussed as concerns Dolson has. Also dialogue on how Woody plans to fix the current issues, as we only have 1 player signed for next year's class.

4. Assuming Dolson is at a point where he's ready to move on from Woodson...then... he needs to put a meeting together with President and BOT (Buckner), laying out his desire to fire Woodson. He needs to also have a plan and vision for the hire as well at that time.

5. If the Prez and BOTs agree, then that's what happens.

6. If either/both disagree...then Dolson has to pivot, establish the vision for what he believes IU basketball is to be, and then reestablishes those expectations with Woody. Knowing Buckner likely has already talked with Woody about Dolson's meeting and desire to fire him. Buckner could either play the role of "snake in the woodpile" and commiserate with Woody. Or he could work to convince Woody that he needs to be open to changing his style and plans, and adopt what Dolson is wanting him to do. "I put my neck out there to get you hired...you owe me the effort to change and keep your job." Either way, its all out there, and the clock is officially ticking for Woody.

The only thing that gives me pause on all this...Dolson thought enough of Woody in this past offseason, to give him that raise. That opens up the possibility that he was excited and on board with where Woody was taking the program before his season started. And thus probably pushes Dolson's clock back on coming to any sort of conclusion that termination is necessary. So at this point, he'd probably just be opening up conversations with concerns in them. Hard to jump all the way from initial concerns in say...January...to an all out firing in March.

Lots of factors leading to the likelihood that Woody is back next year. I just hope there have been some hard conversations if so, and that Woody takes them seriously and works to change. If we only lose a few guys, and bring in McNeely, and a couple good guards...and Woody is open to using those guys differently. We could turn the ship back in the right direction.

O, you foolish mortal. You are a good guy and a good poster, but very naive.

i seriously doubt the meetings you describe in paragraphs 2 and 3 have happened in any meaningful way. I don't doubt they had a 20 minute wrap-up meeting meeting, just like with the softball coach (21 SPORTS, 1 TEAM!!) but nothing meaningful. If Woodson wasn't interested in anything Matta & Fife had to say, do you think he cared about what Dolson had to say? He probably just slapped ole Scottie on the back and said 'don't you worry about a thing.. I got it covered'. Scottie had to be concerned immediately after years end. Getting run off the court by Miami with an AA Center and two 5* recruits wasn't a good look. Then Woodson gets Ware & MM and Scottie thinks the danger has passed. Woodson's like "wait till you see these guys", because he's all about the stars.

Likewise, do you really think Dull Son has expressed his present concerns in any meaningful way? If so, wouldn't Woodson have at least publicly acknowledged the issues by now, rather than just being pissed that the media isn't covering for him as much as they should? Or had some comments about changes or expectations going forward? Do you think he would have said 'how do you expect us to win with all these injuries' if Dolson had told him 'injuries aren't a valid excuse'? I doubt that there has been ANY indication of displeasure from Scottie to Woody. to date. Given this, I agree with you that Dull Son very probably has not greased the skids for a coaching change. But a 2-8 finish and a 1st round BT tourney loss can't be ignored, I'm sure Scottie is hoping that 4-5 wins will come from somewhere.....

I disagree with the "calling a meeting" approach. You need to get Whitten on board first if you intend to change anything. She's the only "innocent" interested party here. If its you v. the President and the BOTs, you lose and you just look silly bringing it up. If its you and the President, the BOTs will side with you. If its important enough to you to try to fix it, that's the approach you take.

 

[RegionHoosiers]

I'd think there would be on-going and regular discussions with all these parties as the season goes on. I'd doubt there are surprises all of a sudden. You need to identify where it went wrong and what's his plan to fix it, and decide if you think that plan will work.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I'd think there would be on-going and regular discussions with all these parties as the season goes on. I'd doubt there are surprises all of a sudden. You need to identify where it went wrong and what's his plan to fix it, and decide if you think that plan will work.

Evidence of that? If that was happening, would Woody trot out the injury excuse? Wouldn't Woody have said SOMETHING about X's actions?

 

[IUbball_lifer]

The $1M raise is the one thing that doesn't quite fit the Quinn pushed Woody narrative. In August Dolson thought things were great when there was a lot of uncertainty as to how things would break. Scares me.

It takes a lot to get booted in Yr 3, we'll see if being ranked #100 and being embarrassed all season is enough. Whatever IU does, we'll probably mess it up lol.

I know it is apples and oranges. But what sealed Tom Allen’s fate was the full blown lack of competitiveness in the last half of the season. It was totally embarrassing even for IU football. He had to go.
So if Woodson cannot right the ship somewhat and get the team to at least compete and show some fight in the remaining games - he could find himself in the same situation. There have been too many stinkers from the team this year and that has to be unacceptable. This is not Tom Crean year 1 or 2. Booing at SSAH would not be a pretty sight.

 

[dbmhoosier]

I'd think there would be on-going and regular discussions with all these parties as the season goes on. I'd doubt there are surprises all of a sudden. You need to identify where it went wrong and what's his plan to fix it, and decide if you think that plan will work.

Woody has completely lost the fan base. There is absolutely no fixing this. Even if he suddenly realized how to coach and had a good plan going forward it would never succeed. When the base goes into burn it down mode it is over. You're simply delaying the inevitable at this point.

 

[bailey777]

Woody has completely lost the fan base. There is absolutely no fixing this. Even if he suddenly realized how to coach and had a good plan going forward it would never succeed. When the base goes into burn it down mode it is over. You're simply delaying the inevitable at this point.

Yep 100% but we all know he will not change anyway. All of his paid advisors were god awful coaches also.

Plus its not like he can say but I got this top ten recruiting class of four guys lined up to come in. Instead its scramble to throw a roster together in the portal.

 

[RegionHoosiers]

Evidence of that? If that was happening, would Woody trot out the injury excuse? Wouldn't Woody have said SOMETHING about X's actions?

I don't think whatever he says to the media is the same as what is talked about within.

 

[JBT Assoc]

Do you replace Woodson after next year if it’s another subpar season? You have to go through the pain of another large buyout when you have a Coach who will be retiring within 5 to 7 years (debatable). Or, do you hire an assistant coach in waiting at the end of next year to have the transition in place? This would require hiring an assistant coach who is not in a prominent position at this time, and can accept a few years of being the standby.

😳😳
Dolson hired a “Coach-in-waiting” when he hired Woodson.
Horrible idea, and it worked out horribly.
A coach-in-waiting is NEVER a good idea.

 

[Tammany Hall]

Woody has completely lost the fan base. There is absolutely no fixing this. Even if he suddenly realized how to coach and had a good plan going forward it would never succeed. When the base goes into burn it down mode it is over. You're simply delaying the inevitable at this point.

Agree. And I haven’t heard any sort of good argument how the guy who cratered the program to ranked #100 is going to fix it. He would have done better already if he could. One good commit (our only commit) and the portal aren’t going to get us for #100 to something top-25.

 

[RegionHoosiers]

Yep 100% but we all know he will not change anyway. All of his paid advisors were god awful coaches also.

Plus its not like he can say but I got this top ten recruiting class of four guys lined up to come in. Instead its scramble to throw a roster together in the portal.

I think that's the biggest issue. It's one thing to have a dud of a season but you have one player signed for next year?

 

[Bucket Getter]

It seems to me Woody and crew are doing their best. Their best simply isn’t anywhere close to good enough. They aren’t just going to magically learn how to coach better.

Football hires a HS coach. Failure.
Basketball hires a Pro coach. Failure.

 

[JBT Assoc]

Painter, Huber Davis and Scheyer are only 3 I can think of.

True. However, they were replacing legends, and were hand-picked by those legends.

 

[rocketo]

Do you replace Woodson after next year if it’s another subpar season? You have to go through the pain of another large buyout when you have a Coach who will be retiring within 5 to 7 years (debatable). Or, do you hire an assistant coach in waiting at the end of next year to have the transition in place? This would require hiring an assistant coach who is not in a prominent position at this time, and can accept a few years of being the standby.

If I’m Dolson, I would be planning my options. Woodson has earned a chance to right the ship, but the leash should be VERY short after this abysmal year

 

[GThomas]

Woodson has earned a chance to right the ship,

You mean the ship he's currently sinking?

 

[indy1203]

Isn’t that really what it’s all about? Screw good ol IU that’s gonna pay you more than 99.5% (or more) of kids your age to be worshipped for playing the game you supposedly love. Don’t worry at all about winning games. Just showcase the couple of nba tricks that can get you drafted.

It’s a weird world. Can’t wait to see what the SEC & B1G have up their sleeve. They’ve agreed on something. Only a matter of figuring out the timing and execution of the rollout.

They are figuring out how to keep Ohio State, Michigan and all of the
SEC on top of the football world.

 

[Tammany Hall]

You mean the ship he's currently sinking?

Right. I don't really see what he has done to earn a chance to fix this. He won one tournament game the first two years and then fielded probably the worst IU team in 50 years (excluding Crean's rebuild). Maybe if he had a couple Sweet 16's or an Elite 8 or a B1G Title or an incredible recruiting class -- that earns him a chance to fix it. But, nothing that stands out like those achievements has happened.

 

[rocketo]

You mean the ship he's currently sinking?

He did get it all the way to the iceberg that is this season. We will see if he can pump enough water to keep it afloat.

 

[Willdog7]

Scott Dolson is committed to Woodson and will allow him to finish out his contract. There is zero chance Woodson will be terminated based on wins and losses. When Woodson retires, Dolson will select the next failure.

Why would Dolson fired Cmw based on fans and the media?

 

[bsmitty08]

Why would Dolson fired Cmw based on fans and the media?

It’s a combination of things. Terrible basketball, culture, and losing your fan base and donors are big time red flags

 

[Willdog7]

It’s a combination of things. Terrible basketball, culture, and losing your fan base and donors are big time red flags

Where were they the first two years, one bad year you turn ship?

 

[bsmitty08]

Where were they the first two years, one bad year you turn ship?

Two average years and a good awful year? Yeah he isn’t moving the program upward. Year three and we will have to rebuild a roster. That’s poor recruiting.

 

[dbmhoosier]

Why would Dolson fired Cmw based on fans and the media?

Right. Why would any Fortune 500 company fire its CEO just because the stock tanked and no one is buying their product anymore? That would be crazy.

 

[Willdog7]

Two average years and a good awful year? Yeah he isn’t moving the program upward. Year three and we will have to rebuild a roster. That’s poor recruiting.

Two plus Twenty win seasons ,two tournament appearances ,we did not have those in the miller years

 

[bsmitty08]

Two plus Twenty win seasons ,two tournament appearances ,we did not have those in the miller years

And Miller years were bad. What have you seen to think Woody can get IU back? It sure isn’t his roster building or coaching.

 

[IUHoopster]

If I’m Dolson, I would be planning my options. Woodson has earned a chance to right the ship, but the leash should be VERY short after this abysmal year

As ugly a process that it may be, I tend to agree with you.

 

[Willdog7]

And Miller years were bad. What have you seen to think Woody can get IU back? It sure isn’t his roster building or coaching.

He done better than Miller ,he deserves a chance.

 

[bsmitty08]

He done better than Miller ,he deserves a chance.

SMH dude, he is done. He isn’t getting IU back. This year is bad as it gets and look at what he is doing with recruiting and roster building. We will be all portal guys next year, rinse repeat for a roster

 

[Tammany Hall]

Archie is a low low bar.

I say this all the time: we have top-5 or so NIL — we can afford top players. We have the biggest bball budget of any athletic dept in the B1G. Why can’t we be top-20 or better with those resources? We are off by 80+ spots at #100!

 

[Willdog7]

SMH dude, he is done. He isn’t getting IU back. This year is bad as it gets and look at what he is doing with recruiting and roster building. We will be all portal guys next year, rinse repeat for a roster

ok

 

[OpenWheels]

If I'm Scott Dolson I'm keeping my head down, trying to survive. Since I would know I've shown little aptitude for the cushy job I've got.

I can't believe I'm hearing "20 win seasons" as if that's some sort of bar to clear. It used to be, 35 years ago.

 

[HoosierJimbo89]

The only thing that gives me pause on all this...Dolson thought enough of Woody in this past offseason, to give him that raise. That opens up the possibility that he was excited and on board with where Woody was taking the program before his season started.

After year 2, it seemed as if Woody had things heading in the right direction. I think most IU fans, including Scott, believed Woody could continue the upward trend: reality has proven otherwise.

 

[trailrunner]

Dolson is in a tough spot.

Everything I think he needs to be doing, right now, should involve discussions with the President and the BOT. Buckner's presence on the BOT potentially throws a huge wrench in that.

What's needed is for Dolson to call a meeting with the President, Buckner, and himself. And I lay out a vision for what IU basketball can, and should be. And assuming its already talked with Woody about all this, multiple times...something needs laid out, bullet point by bullet point, how Woody aligns with the vision for the program. And assuming that for most of the bullet points he doesn't fit, it should conclude with the formal request to fire him at seasons end.

Practically, he has to get Buckner on board with this. And the risk to Dolson is that if Buckner isn't on board with this, and he makes a move like this, it could end up costing Dolson his own job. But if Dolson believes its the right thing to do, then he has to have the fortitude to do it now.

The Buckner dynamic, and him being done next year, leads me to believe Dolson will kick the can down the road another year. Its what most AD's in his position would do. And I'm not naïve enough to say I wouldn't do the same thing, for personal job preservation.

Dolson has shown the willingness to move on coaches before contracts are up. He's shown the chops to get the required funding to get that done. Dolson made the move on Archie, with going hard after Stevens as one of his first moves. Woody wasn't his top choice, evidently...so I doubt Dolson himself views him all that favorably at this point...obviously could be wrong on that, its just a guess. But an educated one, I think, with how the hire went, and then how the Matta/Fife experiment went... Woody's buyout isn't a problem, in the big scheme of things. But his relationship with Buckner is a problem...if Buckner still believes in him and wants him to remain the coach.

So if I'm Dolson, and I'm being honest and realistic, I spend the next 4-5 months actively pushing Woody to change his program, change his staff, etc... With hopes that he will, and that it translates to a better season next year. We don't need to win a national title any time soon, we just need to start playing good basketball again.

If I'm my best version of Dolson, the one with huge balls and tons of fortitude...I have the meetings right now with Buckner and the President, and I push hard to make a coaching change after this season.

Have a meeting with the university president but without Buckner. You are the AD and this should be your decision ultimately.

 

[trailrunner]

How can you have a meeting with the President and Buckner without Woodson being present? Not going to happen and only bad things would ensure if it did.

You think Dolson and Whitten had dinner with Allen prior to termination?

 

[Willdog7]

After year 2, it seemed as if Woody had things heading in the right direction. I think most IU fans, including Scott, believed Woody could continue the upward trend: reality has proven otherwise.

I disagree

 

[trailrunner]

My post indicates that Dolson and Woody would have already had multiple meetings about Dolson's concerns.

The meeting I'm referring to would be because Dolson doesn't see that Woody is on the same page, and is meeting with the proper decision makers to push for a change.

Obviously Dolson needs to have laid out clear expectations, and had multiple follow up meetings to guage results versus expectations...before getting to this step of wanting to make a change.

If he hasn't thought to do that yet...its probably time he initiates those meetings with Woody.

Expectations were laid out prior to the hiring. Just like every other job interview.

 

[trailrunner]

It's hard for me to believe there are any better shooters anywhere better than Calbert, Jordy, Wittman, and even Woody himself. I have no idea about the 3 real assistants or the other dude.

Alford.

 

[Hank Reardon]

It’s a combination of things. Terrible basketball, culture, and losing your fan base and donors are big time red flags

You’re describing the last 20 years. The current situation is hardly unique.

 

[Al Bino]

Not unintentional

Just terribly immature.