Yes, but there a lot of problems other than shooting in terms of motivation, discipline, composure/attitude, and fundamentals. Shooting better would get us no further than average.
If you are Scott Dolson…
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Agree, didn't really mean just that. I'm saying a "coach in waiting" could be tasked with improving shooting, and other fundamentals as well. We'd probably have 4-5 more wins with just some moderate improvement in those areas.
When Calipari was competing for NCs, he was getting 3 of the top 8/9 each year. When he got to the point where he was only getting fewer than that he has not been competitive for the NC.
How can you have a meeting with the President and Buckner without Woodson being present? Not going to happen and only bad things would ensure if it did.
What makes you think Dolson and especially quinn think anything in wrong with the program right now? They probably think it is great we made the tourney the last two years and this is simply a down year due to injuries. Honestly I bet that is how they think.
What’s your point?
As you said, it’s not sustainable. And, with all that talent he got one championship 12 years ago. Again, woohoo! And no thanks!
I don't think anyone expects a Calipari to be in Bloomington. The point is....on balance, UK has been successful...rarely misses the big dance...and has a Natty that today's players can actually see in their lifetime. Not to mention...they are in every high profile preseason tournament...on marquis TV games...etc. If IU were where they are right now, program-wise....I would take it over the status quo. IU needs its own high powered coach. We haven't had that guy since RMK... a quarter of a century ago.
I think a lot of people think that. Injuries, and new young players not contributing yet, and misplaced belief that the seniors were leaders. This board does not represent the average IU BB fan.
My point is that getting 1 5* a year didn't work for Calipari, and he's a far better coach than Woodson. If you're going all in with recruiting one-and-dones there need to be many and they need to be dominant players......the four we've gotten are all nice players with talent but none are dominant players and none seem to be completely in sync with their less talented teammates.
So we're neither getting dominant 5* like Calipari nor 1/2 5*s like Duke had with Coach K that fit in with the rest of the team.
Looking at those great UK teams......
----2011-12....38-2..Won the NC...3 of the starting 5 were Anthony Davis (#1 NBA pick), Marcus Teague (#29 NBA), and Michael Kidd-Gilchrist (#2)
---2009-10....35-3....John Wall (#1), DeMarcus Cousins (#5) and Eric Bledsoe (#18)...and they didn't win the NC
---2014-15......38-1....Karl-Anthony Towns (#1), Devin Booker (#13), Trey Lyles (#12), and Tyler Ulis (#34) in top 6 players...lost FF game to Wisconsin.
Bottom li8ne....if you're going to make it all about the NBA...which I think Woody has....you better have about 3 real studs.
Ware is a nice player. JHS was a nice player. Neither was anything like Davis, Wall, Cousins, Kidd-Gilchrist or Towns.
Woodson reports to Dolson. Dolson is free to meet with Pam (who he reports to) and Quinn (Pam reports to BoT). This is typical -- a leadership team discussing an [underperforming] employee. Tom Allen wasn't in the room when they decided to move on from him.
My post indicates that Dolson and Woody would have already had multiple meetings about Dolson's concerns.
The meeting I'm referring to would be because Dolson doesn't see that Woody is on the same page, and is meeting with the proper decision makers to push for a change.
Obviously Dolson needs to have laid out clear expectations, and had multiple follow up meetings to guage results versus expectations...before getting to this step of wanting to make a change.
If he hasn't thought to do that yet...its probably time he initiates those meetings with Woody.
And those 3 started at very stable programs too. Shows how rare it is. Of those painters wasn’t as stable as the others.
Not the fans I know they all think woodson stinks. But that does not matter all that matters is what quinn thinks. Most folks I know do not give a pass because of a misplaced belief they call that a failure of the coach.
Whey you look a the guys woodson takes advice form it all makes total sense. None of these guys were winners as coaches.
Wittman .400 winning percentage in the NBA
Quinn .159 winning percentage
Armond Hill .338 winning percentage
Isiah .280 winning percentage in college
On March 10, 2003, two days after Columbia finished with a 2–25 record (0–14 in Ivy League play), the worst season in the school's 103-year basketball history, Hill was fired.
Wittman .400 winning percentage in the NBA
Quinn .159 winning percentage
Armond Hill .338 winning percentage
Isiah .280 winning percentage in college
On March 10, 2003, two days after Columbia finished with a 2–25 record (0–14 in Ivy League play), the worst season in the school's 103-year basketball history, Hill was fired.
The president needs to make the decision without any input from Dolson or Buckner. If it's their call, Woody will be at IU until he looks like the Cryptkeeper.
Quinn had a .159 winning percentage in the NBA so he probably thinks Woodson is doing great!The president needs to make the decision without any input from Dolson or Buckner. If it's their call, Woody will be at IU until he looks like the Cryptkeeper.
If I am Scott Dolson and I don't talk Woodson into stepping away from IU, I fire myself for as [dolson] for incompetence. IU with WOODY AT THE HELM NEXT YEAR IS GONNA LOSE MILLIONS IN DONATIONS and have thousands of empty seats.
It's ironic that Buckner's NBA winning percentage mirrors IU's 3-point FG percentage.
Ha, if Pam had enough and demanded results and a coaching change that would be awesome.The president needs to make the decision without any input from Dolson or Buckner. If it's their call, Woody will be at IU until he looks like the Cryptkeeper.
If it’s true that Woody really wanted the job when Glass hired Miller, I’d assume QB was advocating for Woodson back then too. And when the Miller experiment failed perhaps Buckner dialed up his support for MW to an even higher level.
I'm not seeing a physical meeting between SD, Pam & Buckner behind Woodson's back.
I agree with the poster above that Pam W. ought to be the one to push this. She wasn't involved in the original decision and it is less emotionally charged for her.
If she doesn't have the "balls" to initiate the discussion, Dull Son should make the call to her. Buckner shouldn't be brought into until the two are in agreement.
What evidence do you have that Whitten was the driver?
I would acutally think it was more SD with Whitten's blessing since he moved on Archie when not many thought he would.
I’d be surprised if Dolson wanted Woody. We know he wanted Brad, a college coach with a great track record. He hired Cignetti, a long-time college coach with a good track record who brought his staff/connections to try and replicate his process at IU.
Woody is the opposite of what Dolson seems to like in Brad and Cig: an NBA-only guy with no college experience or staff or connections. It’s odd to totally change up your criteria. Seems more likely Quinn, who is powerful on the BoT, pushed for Woody. Dolson wimped out and said okay, he added Matta to try and feel better about the risk of no college experience with Woody.
I have no idea with Pam. She doesn’t say much about sports beyond that she likes them. She doesn’t mention sports in her multi-year strategic plans. That said, if she is driving this, that’s awesome!
Woody is the opposite of what Dolson seems to like in Brad and Cig: an NBA-only guy with no college experience or staff or connections. It’s odd to totally change up your criteria. Seems more likely Quinn, who is powerful on the BoT, pushed for Woody. Dolson wimped out and said okay, he added Matta to try and feel better about the risk of no college experience with Woody.
I have no idea with Pam. She doesn’t say much about sports beyond that she likes them. She doesn’t mention sports in her multi-year strategic plans. That said, if she is driving this, that’s awesome!
At the end of the day, Woodson is just another university employee. His superiors will meet and talk about him all the time without him being there.
I doubt what the “average” fan thinks has much effect anyway, but imo it would be naive to assume that donors’ input doesn’t have a substantial effect (especially the ones bankrolling NIL). I expect there is already a good deal of dissatisfaction within that group, and they don’t need a message board to express it.
That seems like a pretty likely scenario.
That coaching search went on for awhile. Dull Son probably panicked when BSs turned him down. Woodson was his lifeboat. But he had enough sense to know the experience of most NBA lifers when they transition to college.....not good. Woodson probably acted like he was genuinely open to the arrangement with Matta and Fife....then he decided A. Hill was the only one that would really have his ear. Rosemond and Hunter would do the recruiting for him so he didn't have to work too hard at it. And his NBA background would give him enough credibility to sign a few studs.....With his NBA background he was more interested in managing players so they knew their roles than truly developing them.
No they won't. This would be a process. Either Dull Son or Pam must decide he has to go. Then they would talk to the other and put a bug in the other's ear. Dull Son: "Pam, I'm calling to talk about the men's basketball program. I want to know your thoughts....I'm afraid it hasn't worked out like we thought it would...." If Pam is of any stature she'd initiate the conversation because she wasn't involved in the hire. They'd agree "let's see how things play out". After about a month and a couple of calls back and forth they'd be in agreement and one of them would contact Buckner.
Buckner's not going to stand against both of them if they want him gone. He's not an idiot. He knows it hasn't worked.
I don't know if this is a typo or intentional, but you've come up with a perfect nickname for IU's AD.
If Buckner has any veto power, or if there's any understanding or agreement that the BOT (Buckner) is to be involved in any coaching hiring/firing decisions...then your laid out process could potentially be a huge waste of time, as Buckner would end up having ultimate veto power.
I have no idea what the decision making flow is at IU on these things. It sure seems like Buckner was heavily involved in the Woody hire. Doesn't matter...taking the step of firing someone like Woody, should include the BOT's input and approval.
So here's what the process "should" be.
1. Dolson, I would hope, has laid out some basic framework for his expectations for the program. That should have happened when Woody was hired.
2. After years 1 and 2, they would have sat down and reviewed the seasons, discussed the program, and where its headed.
3. At this point, during THIS season, Dolson ideally would have had at least a couple meetings reviewing the program. Style of play, flagrant fouls, current metrics...all fair game to be discussed as concerns Dolson has. Also dialogue on how Woody plans to fix the current issues, as we only have 1 player signed for next year's class.
4. Assuming Dolson is at a point where he's ready to move on from Woodson...then... he needs to put a meeting together with President and BOT (Buckner), laying out his desire to fire Woodson. He needs to also have a plan and vision for the hire as well at that time.
5. If the Prez and BOTs agree, then that's what happens.
6. If either/both disagree...then Dolson has to pivot, establish the vision for what he believes IU basketball is to be, and then reestablishes those expectations with Woody. Knowing Buckner likely has already talked with Woody about Dolson's meeting and desire to fire him. Buckner could either play the role of "snake in the woodpile" and commiserate with Woody. Or he could work to convince Woody that he needs to be open to changing his style and plans, and adopt what Dolson is wanting him to do. "I put my neck out there to get you hired...you owe me the effort to change and keep your job." Either way, its all out there, and the clock is officially ticking for Woody.
The only thing that gives me pause on all this...Dolson thought enough of Woody in this past offseason, to give him that raise. That opens up the possibility that he was excited and on board with where Woody was taking the program before his season started. And thus probably pushes Dolson's clock back on coming to any sort of conclusion that termination is necessary. So at this point, he'd probably just be opening up conversations with concerns in them. Hard to jump all the way from initial concerns in say...January...to an all out firing in March.
Lots of factors leading to the likelihood that Woody is back next year. I just hope there have been some hard conversations if so, and that Woody takes them seriously and works to change. If we only lose a few guys, and bring in McNeely, and a couple good guards...and Woody is open to using those guys differently. We could turn the ship back in the right direction.
The $1M raise is the one thing that doesn't quite fit the Quinn pushed Woody narrative. In August Dolson thought things were great when there was a lot of uncertainty as to how things would break. Scares me.
It takes a lot to get booted in Yr 3, we'll see if being ranked #100 and being embarrassed all season is enough. Whatever IU does, we'll probably mess it up lol.
It takes a lot to get booted in Yr 3, we'll see if being ranked #100 and being embarrassed all season is enough. Whatever IU does, we'll probably mess it up lol.
It's hard for me to believe there are any better shooters anywhere better than Calbert, Jordy, Wittman, and even Woody himself. I have no idea about the 3 real assistants or the other dude.
Well reasoned as usual. Thank you. But I have serious reservations about Woody's ability to change. When forced to agree to "change his style", I just don't think that's realistic. The guy is 65 and has been doing things his way for a looooong time.
